price discrimination based on national origin?

[owl61]

Ever since the US Sup Ct decision in Spector v Norwegian 545 US 119 (2005) I have been waiting for the second shoe to drop, to wit, a lawsuit attacking the cruise line practice of differential pricing based upon country of residence. In Spector the court held that foreign flagged cruise ships sailing in US waters are subject to the provisions of the US American With Disabilities Act (ADA) which prohibits discrimination based upon physical impairment. In so holding the court said that " Although Title III's "public accommodation" and "specified public transportation" definitions do not expressly mention cruise ships, there is no doubt that the NCL ships in question fall within both definitions under conventional principles of interpretation." If the cruise ships were places of public accomodation and transport for purposes of the ADA, clearly they are also such for purposes of other anti-discrimination statutes, specifically the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title II of which prohibits discrimination against persons in places of public accomodations based upon religion, race, color and NATIONAL ORIGIN. The definition of the term "persons" in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act is not limited to US nationals and one would expect US law to apply to all cruise lines subject to US jurisdiction ( sailing in US waters).

Apparently, for reasons best to known to themselves, cruise lines do maintain differential pricing based upon national residence. I observe this myself when as a resident of Brasil I compare pricing between local and US based travel agencies. It seems to me this could be considered unlawful discrimination based upon national origin. Am I missing something?

Is my belief that cruise lines do engage in differential pricing based on country of residence correct? Has anyone had any experience in this regard?

I love cruising, but the industry is under regulated. This may be because it maintains an effective legislative lobby paired with the absence of any orgs willing to seek necessary change. Unfortunately, the main catalyst for change seems to be a small coterie of Florida based lawyers and the courts. Not an effective way to go.

[Kamloops50]

Ever since the US Sup Ct decision in Spector v Norwegian 545 US 119 (2005) I have been waiting for the second shoe to drop, to wit, a lawsuit attacking the cruise line practice of differential pricing based upon country of residence. In Spector the court held that foreign flagged cruise ships sailing in US waters are subject to the provisions of the US American With Disabilities Act (ADA) which prohibits discrimination based upon physical impairment. In so holding the court said that " Although Title III's "public accommodation" and "specified public transportation" definitions do not expressly mention cruise ships, there is no doubt that the NCL ships in question fall within both definitions under conventional principles of interpretation." If the cruise ships were places of public accomodation and transport for purposes of the ADA, clearly they are also such for purposes of other anti-discrimination statutes, specifically the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title II of which prohibits discrimination against persons in places of public accomodations based upon religion, race, color and NATIONAL ORIGIN. The definition of the term "persons" in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act is not limited to US nationals and one would expect US law to apply to all cruise lines subject to US jurisdiction ( sailing in US waters).

Apparently, for reasons best to known to themselves, cruise lines do maintain differential pricing based upon national residence. I observe this myself when as a resident of Brasil I compare pricing between local and US based travel agencies. It seems to me this could be considered unlawful discrimination based upon national origin. Am I missing something?

Is my belief that cruise lines do engage in differential pricing based on country of residence correct? Has anyone had any experience in this regard?

I love cruising, but the industry is under regulated. This may be because it maintains an effective legislative lobby paired with the absence of any orgs willing to seek necessary change. Unfortunately, the main catalyst for change seems to be a small coterie of Florida based lawyers and the courts. Not an effective way to go.

 

To best of what my TA told me. Prices in other countries are based on the exchange rate. Currently the CDN $ has risen against the USD$ , but prices are still in USD. The agent in the country of purchase can set the exchange rate. As a result the cost of our cruise in Jan 08 is still based on the rate

when we purchased in Jan 07.

 

:)

[owl61]

The price differential to which I refer is more than that which results from an exchange rate fluctuation.

Additionally, I have been able to purchase itineraries in Brasil that were refused me by No American agencies. For example, On a cruise stopping in both Rio and Sao Paulo I can buy Rio to Rio from a So American agent ( as well as SP to SP ) but that option is denied me if I ask a No American agent who will only sell me SP to SP. Unfortunately, the price of the same cruise, either way, is higher in So America by about 10%.

[mcdermott]

I am English but live in Spain for many years we sailed on American Ships with Americans and were told how cheaply they purchased their cabins etc we got sick to the back teeth with it and now dont bother to ask. There is a saying dont ask the questions if you dont want to hear the answer.

 

Last week I saw a good deal on an American web site and decided to call and book I asked could I embark in Barcelona although the cruise was starting in Italy ( always do that ) I was told that if I wanted to do this I would have to pay twice the fare and use just the 7 days I wanted.

 

I have just booked a cruise with another American cruise company with a UK TA but have booked it cruise only and there fore the cruise line do not know the I dont live in UK

 

Princess cruises will not alow non Americans to book through American TA

and I get quite anoyed reading about vouchers being given to Americans and when I ask where are mine I am told they are only for American citizens

 

I think that this is a situation that we will not win and we can only shop around for the best deal available at the time.Prices have certainly come down in the last 10years and there are so many ships now that there are some great deals to be had keep looking and dont get anoyed

[Elaine0138]

The difference in prices between the US and other countries has nothing to to with exchange rates. The cruiselines seem to be a law unto themselves

[cruisePRN]

as a resident of Brasil Am I missing something?

 

Yes How to spell your own country of residence BRAZIL:D

 

sniff sniff....troll troll

[Elaine0138]

Yes How to spell your own country of residence BRAZIL:D

 

sniff sniff....troll troll

 

Oh dear Spelling again :) you will find that the OP did spell his country correctly. Brazil is a variation used by English speaking countries.

[Kamloops50]

I am English but live in Spain for many years we sailed on American Ships with Americans and were told how cheaply they purchased their cabins etc we got sick to the back teeth with it and now dont bother to ask. There is a saying dont ask the questions if you dont want to hear the answer.

 

Last week I saw a good deal on an American web site and decided to call and book I asked could I embark in Barcelona although the cruise was starting in Italy ( always do that ) I was told that if I wanted to do this I would have to pay twice the fare and use just the 7 days I wanted.

 

I have just booked a cruise with another American cruise company with a UK TA but have booked it cruise only and there fore the cruise line do not know the I dont live in UK

 

Princess cruises will not alow non Americans to book through American TA

and I get quite anoyed reading about vouchers being given to Americans and when I ask where are mine I am told they are only for American citizens

 

I think that this is a situation that we will not win and we can only shop around for the best deal available at the time.Prices have certainly come down in the last 10years and there are so many ships now that there are some great deals to be had keep looking and dont get anoyed

 

In Canada I can book with an American TA online or over the phone . They quote me in USD and the bank then the bank converts to CDN . Their website can give approx prices in the most common currencies(ie Euros).

It doesn't matter which cruiseline including Princess. I can't understand if

Princess is doing this , why not HAL & Carnival (all owned by Carnival). I have friends who always book cruise and airfare thru US TA's never

canadian because of the cost even after the exchange conversion by

bank.

 

:):):cool::cool:

[jimc_usa]

There is a price discrimination based on STATE! When you book online through NCL (for example) the ask what state you live in. Last year on Carnival I got a better room price for my son because he lived in Arizona. Explain that to me!

[carlmm]

Of course there are huge price differences, yet in my understanding most often rather based on country of residence than on nationality. Everybody legally residing in the USA can book there, everybody living in country x can book there.

Most often the Euro prices available in Germany are higher than the prices available to eg. UK residents and US residents.

While I am certainly not happy about this, price differences are a normal part of business. A softdrink is more expensive at the football stadium than in the supermarket. Many products will have different prices when they are sold eg. in Manhattan or in a low income developing country to reflect the local market situation.

For sure I do not see any reason why US legislations should, as suggested, be the one to regulate all ships and lines in the world.

Just imagine 190 or so countries in the world make their individual laws, quite often contradictory, and declare all other countries have to abide to.

[owl61]

Thanks to Carlmm for pointing out the distinction between national origin and country of residence. That appears to be a valid distinction that would neutralize any Civil RIghts Act claim based upon the prohibition of discriminatrion based upon national origin.

Buy Carlmm, what about restraint of trade claims? The Oceania contract expressly prohibits cross border selling. United States and Canadian travel agents may only take bookings for clients from the US and Canada, holding US or Canadian passports. All other international clients must be booked through travel agencies within their respective country of residence, as designated on their passport.

http://www.oceaniacruises.com/T_Main...6-584a9d210663

The Clayton Act seems to prohibit such restrictions on cross border selling especially where if predictably induces a lack of competition.

§ 2 Clayton Act, 15 U.S.C. §§ 13(2)

Discrimination in price, services, or facilities

(a) Price; selection of customers

It shall be unlawful for any person engaged in commerce, in the course of such commerce, either directly or indirectly, to discriminate in price between different purchasers of commodities of like grade and quality, where either or any of the purchases involved in such discrimination are in commerce...

(f) Knowingly inducing or receiving discriminatory price

It shall be unlawful for any person engaged in commerce, in the course of such commerce, knowingly to induce or receive a discrimination in price which is prohibited by this section.

Its not about the US trying to exercise jurisdiction over the world. It's about regulating unfair commercial activity by entities having minimum contacts and doing business in the US. This jurisdiction must "not offend traditional notions of fair play and substantial justice." International Shoe Co. v. Washington, 326 U.S. 310 (1945). Minimum contacts can be established by consent where a party signs a contract with a forum selection clause, agreeing to litigate in a specified forum. See Carnival Cruise Lines, Inc. v. Shute, 499 U.S. 585 (1991). As you know the Oceania contract dictates Florida as a compulsory venue.

I don't know enough about antitrust law to be certain that restricting customers of one country from buying the product outside their country of residence constitutes a violation of law, but it has a certain malodorous scent. I would be interested in your or anyone else's informed opinion.