QV - Why?

[Beyondships]

In a reply to a previous thread, I said that I would post my upcoming article about Queen Victoria when it was published in the Navy League Log. It has now been published and so I have posted it at

http://www.beyondships.com/QV-Buildingupontradition.html

 

I went into this article with the object of finding out why Cunard was building this ship. Obviously, to make money, it is a business afterall. But why this ship? Was it intended to be a replacement for QE2? Was it supposed to be another QM2? Was it just a cruise ship?

 

After an interview and some conversations with Carol Marlow and others as well as independent research, the answer to all of the above questions is no. Actually, the ship is an attempt to solve a problem that has vexed Cunard for 40 years - - how do you expand the company when there is only a sufficient market to sustain one transatlantic liner.

 

What they are seeking to do is to complement QM2 with a ship that is part cruise ship and part liner. There have been some technical modifications to the Vista design that make her more liner like. However, more importantly, they are trying to achieve a liner like style and atmosphere within the ship.

 

I have also posted a profile of QM2 officer Ben Lyons that appeared in The Log. http://www.beyondships.com/QM2-Lyons.html

 

Hope this is helpful.

[flag fan]

That was a great article. I thought the Queen Victoria had always been planned as QE2's replacement, regardless of what Carnival/Cunard officials said about keeping the older ship in service indefinitely, but your article explains that it was intended to fill a different niche. It makes sense for Carnival to want to keep Cunard's line distinct, while also going after a cruise (as opposed to crossing) market, so a cruise ship that has the look and feel of a transatlantic liner makes sense. It is also positioned to take advantage of an expanding European market. After your article it has shot to the top of my list of ships I'm considering for a European cruise. Thanks for the interesting info.

 

(p.s. My favorite part of the article was the footnote at the end)

[Highlander0108]

Very helpful indeed and ggod perspective. I do wonder waht would have happened if Carnival did not come along. I too was caught up in the liner craze after Titanic came up, but them again, I always had it in me. I will be getting a unique perspective to watch how she handles seas while onboard QE2 for the January tandem crossing. Regarding Ben Lyons, I am extremely jealous. He went down a career path I had contemplated and is living out my dream.

[Estelle]

Very good article. Thanks for posting.

[guernseyguy]

my upcoming article about Queen Victoria when it was published in the Navy League Log. Hope this is helpful.

 

Thanks - fascinating stuff - and very interesting to read what Cunard think of their history - even if some of us might have slightly different interpretations! One teeny tiny nit - Sam Cunard lived and died a Briton, who lived in British North America.....I'm not sure how far you would have got calling him 'Canadian'!

 

Peter

[Traveler Nina]

Excellent article! Very well written and informative.

[Namvet4]

Thank You Mr. Wagner...

A most enjoyable, fact filled article that I, as a newbie to the Cunard experience, found delightful and entertaining. Thank you for sharing. . . :)

[patwell]

Very enjoyable, informative articles. Thanks you very much for sharing them with us. I'm looking forward to QV's arrival.

 

Cheers, Penny

Penny’s Affair to Remember QM2 Review

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=471053

 

November 10,2007...the “Affair” continues....

[K.sailaway]

What a superb article - thank you for posting it. You have put the background into perspective and drawn together information that I have never seen in one place before. There really does seem to be much mis-information out there, with some of it coming from Cunard staff! What you have done puts the record straight and should bring a better understanding of where Queen Victoria fits in, and why. It really is essential reading for all on this board.

 

K.

(Who has also been on Arcadia and boards QV in January).

[Tricyrtis]

Found your article most informative. I have a "thing" about Queen Victoria, as a person, and have read so much about her and from her diaries.

I even have an autograph of hers which is atop a commission she gave a military man in the first year of her reign...1837. We are going to be on the maiden voyage of the newest Cunard Queen (Victoria) when all three of the Queens will be in New York in January 2008, and we'll be on QV from New York to Los Angeles! Can hardly wait!! Thanks for the great article!

[soblue]

Thanks, for the article made great reading.

 

Andrew:)

[NHBob]

Thanks for posting this most informative article. Because of a less-than-satisfactory experience on QM2, plus Cunard's high single supplements, I have been shying away from Cunard recently, except for a TA on QE2 last April.

 

I had assumed she would just be a Vista ship in Cunard colors, but your tempts me to give the Victoria a try once she settles into a regular routine, assuming I can find a reasonable deal on single supplement. Interesting that Cunard no longer quoting single rates in brochures, just saying to call for single rates, so perhaps the supplement is becoming more flexible depending on how early bookings do.

 

In an earlier post somebody wondered what would have happened to Cunard if Carnival hadn't come along. My guess, unless another white knight had come along, Cunard would probably have disappeared, and there certainly wouldn't have been a QM2 or Victoria.

[Beyondships]

Thank you for all the kind comments. I am glad you found the article of interest.

[Cunard Cruiser]

Really interesting and well written. Bravo!!

In your article you mention the financial tightness that chokes Cunard when running a two ship fleet. What are thoughts when QE2 is removed from service and they are back down to two? Could another vista class sister be in the works?

[Beyondships]

Really interesting and well written. Bravo!!

 

In your article you mention the financial tightness that chokes Cunard when running a two ship fleet. What are thoughts when QE2 is removed from service and they are back down to two? Could another vista class sister be in the works?

 

 

Thanks. I asked that question and Carol Marlow said in July that another ship is under consideration. She would not comment beyond that.

[Highlander0108]

Thanks. I asked that question and Carol Marlow said in July that another ship is under consideration. She would not comment beyond that.

 

That is encouraging news to me. I missed her talk in NYC. I hope she can steer Cunard to at least making a more "liner" like ship out of whatever Carnival hull design they inevitably will be forced to base the new build on. My pipe dream would be to have a scaled down QM2, with a somewhat rounded liner stern and less boxlike superstructure. It's a dream.

[msk68]

Thank you for sharing this article. It is a very interesting profile.

[Kindlychap]

Really interesting and well written. Bravo!!

 

In your article you mention the financial tightness that chokes Cunard when running a two ship fleet. What are thoughts when QE2 is removed from service and they are back down to two? Could another vista class sister be in the works?

 

Cunard is part of Princess in practical terms. That gets around the problem.....

 

Matthew

[Cunard Cruiser]

Thanks for another inside scoop. If there is another ship I bet it will be annouced by early 2009 just after drops anchor for the last time. My opinion it will be a twin sister to QV.

[Highlander0108]

Thanks for another inside scoop. If there is another ship I bet it will be annouced by early 2009 just after drops anchor for the last time. My opinion it will be a twin sister to QV.

 

I agree and if I was the betting type, I think the odds are pretty favorable for a twin sister. Hopefully QV is a runaway sucess and Cunard can afford to do something more unique with the next ship and not just a rehashed version of another Vista class hull design. I would also bet on the fact that we will get another ship down the road, given the expanding European market.

[tntornadox]

Hello Everyone. I have been visiting these boards for some time, and have decided to join to give my quick opinion on the whole QV/Cunard situation. For reference, I have never sailed on Cunard, although it is one of my fantasies, I hope to do so in the near future..

 

Concerning Cunard- I have noticed that this question has popped up several times before. Would Cunard have survived had Carnival Corp not bought it? I believe the answer to have been No.

 

Cunard was languishing before the buy-out in the mid 90s. It had two ships- the ever classic QE2, which was up for a major overhaul to meet the new SOLAS requirements, and would need major investment. Then they also had the Caronia, a ship that was due to head back to its original owners in due time, anyway. What you have at this time is a death toll.

 

Cunard had not built a new vessel of its own in decades, and the funds would not be available to do so, given the upgrades QE2 needed in the near future.

 

Quite simply, Carnival did something Cunard had not done on its own- catered to a more American audience. I'm sure noone will argue that a majority of cruise passengers are American, although this number is changing now... the old Cunard seemed determined to be set in its ways, which would have ultimately led to its demise.

 

Now, when Carnival stepped in, they changed Cunard overnight. Caronia was gone not long before QM2s debut, and long before QV finally came along. QE2, as classy as she is, was deemed too much of an investment to continue running, when they could just build a new ship to replace her.

 

As bad as that sounds, it is business, after all. They are out to make money. Which is why Carnival Corp uses the "Vista Class" of liners so much. They are cookie cutter designs, easy and cheap to build in comparison to new liners, making good business sense.

 

As far as modern vessels go, I notice most people think they are ugly compared to the old liners. But imagine, in the older days, people probably thought of the new "4 funnel liners" such as the Lusitania and Olympic as ugly too.. they were quick to become classics of their time, as I feel these new Cunard liners will do in the course of their time at sea.

 

I beleve the future of Cunard to be very strong. As long as business is going as well as they say it is, I see no end in sight. One good thing about Carnival Corp is that they build up the lines they buy. Cunard may have a big fleet once again, in the very near future...

 

Once again, many are quick to blame Carnival for Cunard's wrong doings, but, in my opinion, had it not been for Carnival, there would have been no Cunard today, or at least not for much longer, anyway. Carnival has reinvigorated the old line, and will propel it into the future...

 

Sorry for this long rant, I have been wanting to talk for sometime now, as you can probably tell... haha.

[guernseyguy]

Then they also had the Caronia, a ship that was due to head back to its original owners in due time.

 

Caronia's original owners no longer existed - Cunard sold her to SAGA, then leased her back. The original plan had been to transfer Caronia's superlative crew to QV (I) - but then that did not happen as QV(I) became ARCADIA

 

Quite simply, Carnival did something Cunard had not done on its own- catered to a more American audience.

 

Quite simply, Cunard has been catering to an American audience for well over a century - Carnival did not change that. As a passenger list 'frozen in time' check out Titanic's - most of First Class was American, most of Second Class, British - typical of any crossing. And one of the reasons that QUEEN MARY beat NORMANDIE hands down was her better Second Class accommodation.

 

Caronia was gone not long before QM2s debut

 

Then I must have imagined sailing past the QM2 on the Caronia.......

 

 

Welcome to the board - I agree with (most of) the conclusions of your analysis - but we can be a tough crowd when it comes to the facts.;)

[tntornadox]

Ah, no offense taken.

 

I only started following Cunard as the QM2 was being built, and I don't know all the details. I could remember the Caronia leaving not long after QM2 entering service.

 

And as far as the catering to Americans, I meant they had no presence in the U.S. beyond New York. Most Americans had absolutely no idea who Cunard was.. in recent years, that is.

[guernseyguy]

And as far as the catering to Americans, I meant they had no presence in the U.S. beyond New York. Most Americans had absolutely no idea who Cunard was.. in recent years, that is.

 

If Americans in recent years had no idea who Cunard was.... I'd blame the Miami office (since relocated to land-locked Valencia, Ca, and now back in Southampton, as far as we can tell....) but they were in Miami since 1997, after moving to New York in 1967......see here:

 

http://www.cunard.co.uk/uploads/CUNARDHISTORY.pdf

 

Peter

[Colin_Cameron]

Hi, and welcome aboard.

 

Like Peter, I don't disagree with your conclusions, but some of your arguments show lots of common misconceptions. So don't worry, you're not alone.

Would Cunard have survived had Carnival Corp not bought it? I believe the answer to have been No.

You might be right. I'll even grant that you're probably right

Cunard was languishing before the buy-out in the mid 90s. It had two ships- the ever classic QE2,... Then they also had the Caronia

In the mid-90's Cunard were running an eleven ship fleet, in three divisions: QE2; then the Cunard Royal Viking division had Royal Viking Sun, Sagafjord, Vistafjord, Sea Goddess I, & II; and Cunard Crown had Cunard Princess, Cunard Countess, Crown Monarch, Crown Dynasty and Crown Jewel.

 

On the takeover Carnival moved RVS and the Goddess twins to Seabourn.

Caronia was a Carnival invention and didn't appear until 18 months after they took over.

 

Cunard had not built a new vessel of its own in decades, and the funds would not be available to do so,

Kvaerner certainly had the money, but havng initially said they wanted to sell they turned down bidder after bidder. I wonder if Cunard was bringing in more revenue than expected? One of the other potential buyers for Cunard (Prudential Insurance) had plans drawn up for two new ships. But it was rumoured that Kvaerner (a shipbuilding company) insisted that they build the new ships as part of the sale agreement and this seemed to be a sticking point.

 

Quite simply, Carnival did something Cunard had not done on its own- catered to a more American audience.

When we started cruising it wasn't uncommon to find more Americans than Brits on board a Cunard ship. The head office had been in New York since the sixties and moved to Miami before Carnival took over. Maybe the average American on the street didn't know Cunard but those who knew what to look for in quality, classic cruising certainly knew where to look. Sagafjord, RVS, QE2, Vistafjord, probably in that order.

 

the old Cunard seemed determined to be set in its ways, which would have ultimately led to its demise.

Granted, by the time Carnival Corp. took over in '98 Cunard was down to five ships: QE2, RVS, Vistafjord and the two Sea Goddesses. But that was because they had started the process that Carnival continued of concentrating on their core strengths. They had removed the three and four star ships (all the Cunard Crown ships) and the oldest of the five star ones (Sagafjord-not through choice).

 

 

Now, when Carnival stepped in, they changed Cunard overnight. Caronia was gone not long before QM2s debut,

They tried to in small ways. I remember a cocktail party where the Captain read out an e-mail from the new Carnival head office on how to conduct a cocktail party. "A senior officer will greet the guests at the door", he looked at the stripes on his sleeve and nodded, "He will shake the guests hand." He thinks and nods his head. "He will not kiss the female guests." Amid loud Boo's from the crowd the Captain tears the paper into little pieces.

 

Major changes, like charging for alternate restaurants, took nearly five years.

 

Caronia didn't disappear until eleven months after QM2's debut and five and a half years after Carnival's takeover. I was on QM2's maiden crossing, and Caronia's farewell voyage.

 

QE2, as classy as she is, was deemed too much of an investment to continue running,

I think Cunard believed they could continue to invest in QE2, and make a profit. Of course when a buyer came along that removed the speculation from the calculation.

 

Cunard may have a big fleet once again, in the very near future

I certainly hope so

 

regards, Colin.