So Much for Honesty!

[larronry]

The reality is, it's a school policy and you have no choice but to accept it. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, but if they made an exception for you they'd have to make it for 100's more.

 

If it were my child I'd rather do the right and honest thing instead of set a bad example of being dishonest. Your'd kid might not know it but your conscience will.

 

I'm with a few other posters, that it'd be wiser to plan vacations around school the way most people do.

 

Who's needs are being met here mom??

So what you are saying is that if a parent who for example because of seniority cannot take a vacation during school break the family should never take a vacation? Seems sad.:(

[kalamari]

No that's not what I'm saying.

 

What I am saying is that for whatever reason the school has it's own ideas and the parents either have to put up with it and face the consequences or take a vacation some other time. If I were in the poster's position, my conscience wouldn't allow me to be dishonest...maybe hers would. And I'm not saying I'm against travel as being an "education", or not taking kids on a vacation.

 

I have no problems with anyone taking a vacation, but you can't expect a school board to bend the rules for one person. I have no idea why the school made the decison the way it did.

 

If a parent can't take a vacation during a school break because of senority, then I guess they have to do the same thing that everyone else in their situation does. Take whatever vacation you can when it's offered to you.

 

The education system as a whole is pitiful. I teach graduate university students and I can't fathom how some of them made it to undergrad. All they do is whine about having to take notes, and "can't you please give us the powerpoint handouts instead of us writing, it's much easier". They were pretty upset when they found out I don't do powerpoint, I teach the way I was taught. Everyone's rights replaces their responsiblity seems to be the new way of thinking in the world!

So what you are saying is that if a parent who for example because of seniority cannot take a vacation during school break the family should never take a vacation? Seems sad.:(

[barryod]

Dear OceanDreamin',

To adjust the truth so as to allow your daughter to experience a family enrichment program (cruise) is acceptable in my book. I can tell you this, that if your daughter, after college, wishes to apply for a position as a Secret Service Officer or in a few other federal agency positions, and the decission rests with two candidates of which your daughter is one, she may not get the position. Backround checks start at 1st grade. Think hard about stupid policies and how they impact down the road. My Dr. would give me a note in a heart beat.

 

Barry

[monn_a]

I'm new to this thread I tried to read them to catch up, but I do agree with Kalamari. I'm a single mom, my daughter was very active in school and we have taken a lot of trips but only once during the regular school year. I have always either planned them around breaks or taken them in the summer (which is a break I guess). She's now in college so I can take them when I please. Her senior year she didn't go on all of my trips but she was then old enough to leave home. The problems with taking them out are many, I too was a teacher for a short time (8 yrs)and it is unfair to have to prepare work for one student a head of time, sometimes what you're teaching will go in a totally different direction and the child misses out on that. Also if the child is involved in activities they miss those too. My daughter was in the band and in HS if you miss practice you have to sit out the game, and she hated that. She played softball and tennis, again if you miss practice you're benced, it's just that competitive in HS.

 

The issue of seniority is, OH WELL, when you have children they need to be the priority...not preaching but we owe them that. Their needs must come first (most of the time)...So it's not about never being able to take vacation it's about when you take it. I don't work in an industry where seniority is a factor when taking vacation but I have friends that do and with their companies if you put in for it early enough it trumps seniority. So it's about planning ahead or taking the time w/o pay if that's an option or taking the trip (if it's a must take trip) w/o the kids...then you have the problem (possibly) of who's going to care for them while you're gone.

 

I know for certain that I would never go the withdrawal and re-enroll route, I just can't see a vacation being important enough to do that to my child. If you're children are in Honors, AP or IB programs the workload is so great a few days throws them so far behind and they end up spending most of the vacation doing work...

[OceanDreamin]

Hi everyone - the OP popping back in here for a minute to recap some things that may have been missed by folks who did not read the whole thread.

 

1. This trip was planned, booked, and paid for when DD was going to a private Montessori school which has a full-year educational curriculum. Accordingly, they EXPECT parents to take time off at some piont for vacations, and have no problem with it. That was my mind-set at the time of scheduling this trip, along with the fact it was the only time I had vacation time available to me. This was the only opportunity my brother had to take vacation time. This cruise was the first time my brother and I have vacationed together since we were kids, and the most time he has spent with his niece (my DD) since she was born.

 

2. I had believed after doing some research on the topic that if I asked for Independent Study, it was a "no-brainer" that the principal would grant it for a 1st grader, since the school would still receive funding for her as if she was present. That was what I was trying to do.

 

3. I notified the Principal and the teacher of this vacation a few weeks after enrolling her in September, about our Mid-October cruise, so I gave PLENTY of notice.

 

4. Our trip was almost a month ago now, we had a great time, and are back - and still no Truancy Letter, despite what the Principal told me.

 

5. My friend who came with us also pulled her 5 and 7 year old DD's out of a Los Angeles Unified School District school. She copied my letter to my Principal to give to her girls' school. She got no response from the Principal of that school, other than the teachers sending home the girls' work.

 

6. What I was told at first was that Independent Study was being denied because I was taking DD out of the Country, which was just a ludicrous reason to me. That was what made me the maddest. I was later told that the "committee" denied me for Independent Study because I was taking DD on a family vacation and not taking a trip for a family emergency or something. Although I don't like the policy, at least THAT makes some sense. Although if the thing about not leaving the Country is also true, that is discriminatory against immigrants who still have family members (who could have a medical emergency) who still reside in their home country. Under that policy American kids can take time off school if their American Grandma gets sick, but kids of Mexican parents, or Canadian parents or even British parents (like me!), can't be excused to visit THEIR sick relatives!:mad:

[bigcraig]

If a parent can't take a vacation during a school break because of senority, then I guess they have to do the same thing that everyone else in their situation does. Take whatever vacation you can when it's offered to you.

So if we take it when its offered I should leave my child home alone or go by myself? Can I take my girlfriend?:rolleyes:

[CanadianTwosome]

The education system as a whole is pitiful. I teach graduate university students and I can't fathom how some of them made it to undergrad. All they do is whine about having to take notes, and "can't you please give us the powerpoint handouts instead of us writing, it's much easier". They were pretty upset when they found out I don't do powerpoint, I teach the way I was taught. Everyone's rights replaces their responsiblity seems to be the new way of thinking in the world!

 

Sort of off topic, but sort of not... I agree with you completely!! I can't believe the caliber of some of the assignments I've graded - at the university level! It baffles me that some of them will actually put their names on the unbelievable garbage they hand in!! As for the powerpoint, don't get me started. ha ha ha

[bigcraig]

The issue of seniority is, OH WELL, I don't work in an industry where seniority is a factor when taking vacation but I have friends that do and with their companies if you put in for it early enough it trumps seniority.

 

Sorry to tell you putting in for something early NEVER trumps seniority, at the beginning of the year the vacation list comes out,(union company or not) and ALL of the times when the kids are out of school(summer,breaks,teacher work days(what do they do during school?))are GONE,leaving the choice between family vacations or not.

 

And to the poster that says you may risk federal jobs, I know first hand that is not totally correct,I can't go more into this though...;)

[kalamari]

I would suggest going by yourself if you can't get a girlfriend, seeing you asked.

 

So if we take it when its offered I should leave my child home alone or go by myself? Can I take my girlfriend?:rolleyes:

[CanadianTwosome]

The issue of seniority is, OH WELL, when you have children they need to be the priority...not preaching but we owe them that. Their needs must come first (most of the time)...

 

As I've said before in this thread, I think all the parents here are in agreement about putting their children's needs first and making them a priority. We all have different ideas of what that means, however. For some of us, that means doing our best to expose our children to travel and the life experience it brings. I learned a great deal from the wonderful travel experiences I had as a child, and I feel that I owe that same opportunity to my daughter. As far as my child's needs coming first, for me that is not 'most of the time'. Needs and wants are entirely different, and what my child needs is always the first priority in our lives. To clarify that in regard to what I think you meant, I believe education is most definitely a necessity; I do not believe school is the only place education occurs.

[larronry]

No that's not what I'm saying.

 

What I am saying is that for whatever reason the school has it's own ideas and the parents either have to put up with it and face the consequences or take a vacation some other time. If I were in the poster's position, my conscience wouldn't allow me to be dishonest...maybe hers would. And I'm not saying I'm against travel as being an "education", or not taking kids on a vacation.

 

I have no problems with anyone taking a vacation, but you can't expect a school board to bend the rules for one person. I have no idea why the school made the decison the way it did.

 

If a parent can't take a vacation during a school break because of senority, then I guess they have to do the same thing that everyone else in their situation does. Take whatever vacation you can when it's offered to you.

 

The education system as a whole is pitiful. I teach graduate university students and I can't fathom how some of them made it to undergrad. All they do is whine about having to take notes, and "can't you please give us the powerpoint handouts instead of us writing, it's much easier". They were pretty upset when they found out I don't do powerpoint, I teach the way I was taught. Everyone's rights replaces their responsiblity seems to be the new way of thinking in the world!

And the point that you get students like that means that pulling your child from school for a vacation that they can learn from is far more important than what many (not all) can learn from school. OK I expect Power Point when I go to a conference and really hate illegible overheads, which I still see, but in college where some lessons end up taking longer then expected and others shorter then expected because there may be more questions on some and less on others or for what ever reason I just wouldn't expect it. Does it show that I didn't go to graduate school in this decade? Now when I've gone back to school to get another certification I brought my laptop so I could take notes faster & more legibly. OMG that wasn't even in the decade. :eek: Nor was it in the decade I went to graduate school.:eek:

 

Needs and wants are entirely different, and what my child needs is always the first priority in our lives. To clarify that in regard to what I think you meant, I believe education is most definitely a necessity; I do not believe school is the only place education occurs.

I think that is very well said especially since I come from a state that teaches to a test and doesn't teach to learn & educate.

[bigcraig]

I would suggest going by yourself if you can't get a girlfriend, seeing you asked.

I am just not sure how much my wife would like that?:p

[kalamari]

Sir, what in the world are you talking about?

 

And the point that you get students like that means that pulling your child from school for a vacation that they can learn from is far more important than what many (not all) can learn from school. OK I expect Power Point when I go to a conference and really hate illegible overheads, which I still see, but in college where some lessons end up taking longer then expected and others shorter then expected because there may be more questions on some and less on others or for what ever reason I just wouldn't expect it. Does it show that I didn't go to graduate school in this decade? Now when I've gone back to school to get another certification I brought my laptop so I could take notes faster & more legibly. OMG that wasn't even in the decade. :eek: Nor was it in the decade I went to graduate school.:eek:

 

I think that is very well said especially since I come from a state that teaches to a test and doesn't teach to learn & educate.

[kalamari]

Sir, what in the world are you talking about, and what does it have to do with helping the OP decide what to do?

 

I mentioned that I have students who hate to take notes and would ask me to distribute the handouts "so they wouldn't have to take notes". They were lazy. It has nothing to do with illegible letterheads. That was an aside comment that has nothing to do with the topic.

 

Geez..don't get so huffy! :)

 

And the point that you get students like that means that pulling your child from school for a vacation that they can learn from is far more important than what many (not all) can learn from school. OK I expect Power Point when I go to a conference and really hate illegible overheads, which I still see, but in college where some lessons end up taking longer then expected and others shorter then expected because there may be more questions on some and less on others or for what ever reason I just wouldn't expect it. Does it show that I didn't go to graduate school in this decade? Now when I've gone back to school to get another certification I brought my laptop so I could take notes faster & more legibly. OMG that wasn't even in the decade. :eek: Nor was it in the decade I went to graduate school.:eek:

 

I think that is very well said especially since I come from a state that teaches to a test and doesn't teach to learn & educate.

[goLC]

Sorry to tell you putting in for something early NEVER trumps seniority, at the beginning of the year the vacation list comes out,(union company or not) and ALL of the times when the kids are out of school(summer,breaks,teacher work days(what do they do during school?))are GONE,leaving the choice between family vacations or not.

 

And to the poster that says you may risk federal jobs, I know first hand that is not totally correct,I can't go more into this though...;)

 

Our "work days" are not work days that are actually helpful to us as teachers. Ours are usually days where we sit listening to an "expert" tell us things to do to improve test scores, all-the-while our minds are busy thinking about the hundreds of things we SHOULD be doing in our classrooms/for our students. I would rather work 10 days extra with kids than spend 10 minutes in one of those "teacher work day" meetings.

 

I've read and followed this entire thread. The gist I'm getting is that everyone is pretty fed up with teachers and schools and that a large part of that is due to NCLB. If everyone that is fed up with it would contact his/her lawmakers who enacted NCLB about their displeasure, perhaps that would be a proactive measure to alleviate the problem. We teachers receive a curriculum document (hundreds of pages long) that we have no choice to plan our instruction with. If the kids don't prove "mastery" on the "tests," who do you think can lose their jobs? There's all sorts of stuff that I HAVE to teach that I do not agree with, but I work my tail off to try to do it. I have numerous issues with the tests themselves and how progress is measured.

 

I'm sure there are bad teachers in this country. I also know I work with many dedicated, hard working people who only want the best for your children (trust me, the pay isn't enough to keep us in our jobs!) If you really want to make a difference other than complaining, try complaining to the people who had created the monster. Maybe if enough do, something will improve.

[larronry]

Sir, what in the world are you talking about, and what does it have to do with helping the OP decide what to do?

 

I mentioned that I have students who hate to take notes and would ask me to distribute the handouts "so they wouldn't have to take notes". They were lazy. It has nothing to do with illegible letterheads. That was an aside comment that has nothing to do with the topic.

 

Geez..don't get so huffy! :)

I'm not getting huffy I'm saying that parents are pulling their kids from the school systems that are teaching them to expect power point presentations. I never would have expected a power point presentation from my college professor either graduate or undergraduate. And although I graduated a while ago they did have power point presentations and projectors back then and the professors had access to them because they used them when the did presentations at professional conferences which is where I expected handouts and still do.

 

Here in Florida the school system teaches to a test. To me that sucks. Where I went to school there was standardized testing. Our prep was tomorrow we will begin standardized testing. Eat a good breakfast, bring at least 2 number 2 pencils and an eraser. Here the whole curriculum is based around the standardized test. If you are teaching to a test then the students are only learning long enough to pass a test and they are not learning to learn. There are enough teachers on this thread to know that they would hate it if their students weren't learning. If my child attends public school I could care less if I pulled him from school for a vacation. I could teach him so much more then the teachers are being allowed to teach. To me an A rated school is only a school that can teach to the test very well. That is a sad state of education.

[kalamari]

Ok good point. I am from your same neck of the woods and teach in one of the grad programs here part time (don't want to mention which one but it's a university). On a flight once I sat next to the one of the big dogs from the PBC school district and asked her why the district had to spend $6 million to teach Haitian culture in the school system and half the children in the district couldn't read or write. I was horrified when she told me it was part of a law suit that someone from that culture sued them because they essentially though the textbooks and teachers were biased against them.

 

I'm not getting huffy I'm saying that parents are pulling their kids from the school systems that are teaching them to expect power point presentations. I never would have expected a power point presentation from my college professor either graduate or undergraduate. And although I graduated a while ago they did have power point presentations and projectors back then and the professors had access to them because they used them when the did presentations at professional conferences which is where I expected handouts and still do.

 

Here in Florida the school system teaches to a test. To me that sucks. Where I went to school there was standardized testing. Our prep was tomorrow we will begin standardized testing. Eat a good breakfast, bring at least 2 number 2 pencils and an eraser. Here the whole curriculum is based around the standardized test. If you are teaching to a test then the students are only learning long enough to pass a test and they are not learning to learn. There are enough teachers on this thread to know that they would hate it if their students weren't learning. If my child attends public school I could care less if I pulled him from school for a vacation. I could teach him so much more then the teachers are being allowed to teach. To me an A rated school is only a school that can teach to the test very well. That is a sad state of education.

[larronry]

Ok good point. I am from your same neck of the woods and teach in one of the grad programs here part time (don't want to mention which one but it's a university). On a flight once I sat next to the one of the big dogs from the PBC school district and asked her why the district had to spend $6 million to teach Haitian culture in the school system and half the children in the district couldn't read or write. I was horrified when she told me it was part of a law suit that someone from that culture sued them because they essentially though the textbooks and teachers were biased against them.

It is absolutely amazing what lawsuits can do. And having spent a lot of time in the PBC school district as an outsider I saw no signs of biased against the Haitian culture other than a possible language barrier. Tends to be an issue more with the parents then with the students. Kids tend to pick up the language.

[kalamari]

Off topic I know, but the dean of education from Harvard came out with a book in 1999 called "Losing Our Language, Why Multicultural Education is to blame for why our Children Can't Read or Write". It's a pretty scathing book coming from the dean of education but one of the best I've ever read and based on valid research comparing basal readers and textboooks over the past few years, combined with how political interests have changed the whole way children are taught.

 

Did the OP finally reach a verdict on what to do?

 

 

It is absolutely amazing what lawsuits can do. And having spent a lot of time in the PBC school district as an outsider I saw no signs of biased against the Haitian culture other than a possible language barrier. Tends to be an issue more with the parents then with the students. Kids tend to pick up the language.

[larronry]

Now that sounds like an interesting book.

 

I think the downfall of our educational system doesn't lie with just the school system and certainly not with the teachers, but partially with the electorate (both state and federal) because they affect our economy, and with the families. I see nothing wrong with moms wanting to work, but when you have the stress of having to work paired with the moving around to keep or get jobs like we have today so that you don't have the support of extended families to help with your kids you are just dealing with so many issues that our parents or grandparents just didn't have to deal with.

 

And for stay at home moms that don't live near family the stress just isn't that much less especially while their kids are not in school. Except for those who can pay to have help.

 

As for the OP she went on the cruise and hasn't received a Truancy letter yet. Her friend also came on that trip with her and pulled her kids from the same school system. She gave the same letter to kids principle and got no threats of a truancy letter. Go figure.

[OceanDreamin]

Off topic I know, but the dean of education from Harvard came out with a book in 1999 called "Losing Our Language, Why Multicultural Education is to blame for why our Children Can't Read or Write". It's a pretty scathing book coming from the dean of education but one of the best I've ever read and based on valid research comparing basal readers and textboooks over the past few years, combined with how political interests have changed the whole way children are taught.

 

Wow, that sounds like an interesting read!

 

Did the OP finally reach a verdict on what to do?

 

Yes, I did. I already went on my trip with my daughter, and we had a fabulous time, and she and I both got to spend some real quality time with my brother, which was a very special treat, and something I hope she will always remember.

 

Since I had already told the Principal that we were taking a family vacation, there wasn't much I could do, besides cancel the whole trip which was already paid for, which was simply not an option. We went, and will face whatever consequences there are, which according to the Principal is a truancy letter. We have been back for nearly a month now, though, and I have yet to receive any such letter.

 

Interestingly, my friend who accompanied me on our trip "borrowed" my letter to send to her daughters' school to excuse them. Even though the two schools are both in the Los Angeles Unified School District, my friend did not receive any problem whatsoever from the Principal of that school. Her girls are in Kindergarten and 2nd grade, while mine is in 1st grade.

 

I really do think it is this whole NCLB Act that is the problem. My DD's school has FABULOUS test scores, and is up for the National Blue Ribbon Achievement Award this year - and they don't want anything (or anyONE) to jeopardize that.

[Onessa]

Off topic I know, but the dean of education from Harvard came out with a book in 1999 called "Losing Our Language, Why Multicultural Education is to blame for why our Children Can't Read or Write". It's a pretty scathing book coming from the dean of education but one of the best I've ever read and based on valid research comparing basal readers and textboooks over the past few years, combined with how political interests have changed the whole way children are taught.

. . .

 

JMHO but IM is probably 2 blame :D

[lddam]

"Here in Florida the school system teaches to a test. To me that sucks. Where I went to school there was standardized testing. Our prep was tomorrow we will begin standardized testing. Eat a good breakfast, bring at least 2 number 2 pencils and an eraser. Here the whole curriculum is based around the standardized test. If you are teaching to a test then the students are only learning long enough to pass a test and they are not learning to learn." (Larronry)

 

There seems to be a common perception that "teaching to the test" is an indication of a low level educational program, and I must take exception to that presumption. Effectively, a test should give an accurate assessment of two conditions... the extent to which the curriculum is taught and the degree to which it is learned. I can't speak for the testing program in Florida, but here in NY a great deal of time, energy and money has been invested in creating statewide assessments which are aligned to the statewide Learning Standards. If these assessments rise to a significant level of validity and reliability, then they should be an accurate assessment of what is being taught and the degree to which it is being learned.

 

By extension, if a teacher were to use the test as an outline of his/her responsibilities for the academic year, that test becomes an effective yardstick for measuring the extent to which the curriculum is being presented to the students. It assures the teacher that he/she has not omitted important material from the academic program. How is that such a bad thing?

 

Notice, I'm not speaking to the methodology utilized in presenting the curriculum. The methods employed rests with the individual teacher, and that's where academic freedom comes into play as it is the teacher's right and responsibility to determine HOW to present the material so as to make it meaningful for the student. A creative, energetic teacher will provide that curriculum exposure to students in energetic, creative ways. "Teaching to the test" does not automatically condemn students to drudgery, and to imply otherwise is a disservice.

 

Dave

[bigcraig]

I have the most respect for teachers, they work long hours with often unruly students, I know I have sat in on my DD classes many times-No Respect-this is what has been lost, I have received emails from teachers with my daughters daily activities/test results/assignments often after 7pm, they(teachers) are still working long and hard long after school gets out, even passing the school going out the parking lot still has many cars in it after 7pm, my hat is off to you for such hard work and for such low compensation.

 

It is true Florida mostly some other states ie Indiana teach to the test, I grew up in South Florida,Davie & Plantation and skated through school back in the 70's, still the same or worse now with all the cultural diversity, I learned more in the real world than I ever learned in school, taking your child out for family time IMO is a family decision, the government and school boards will NEVER make that decision for us.

 

As a matter of fact it was our principals suggestion to withdraw/re-enroll our child.

 

BigCraig :cool:

[larronry]

"Here in Florida the school system teaches to a test. To me that sucks. Where I went to school there was standardized testing. Our prep was tomorrow we will begin standardized testing. Eat a good breakfast, bring at least 2 number 2 pencils and an eraser. Here the whole curriculum is based around the standardized test. If you are teaching to a test then the students are only learning long enough to pass a test and they are not learning to learn." (Larronry)

 

There seems to be a common perception that "teaching to the test" is an indication of a low level educational program, and I must take exception to that presumption. Effectively, a test should give an accurate assessment of two conditions... the extent to which the curriculum is taught and the degree to which it is learned. I can't speak for the testing program in Florida, but here in NY a great deal of time, energy and money has been invested in creating statewide assessments which are aligned to the statewide Learning Standards. If these assessments rise to a significant level of validity and reliability, then they should be an accurate assessment of what is being taught and the degree to which it is being learned.

 

By extension, if a teacher were to use the test as an outline of his/her responsibilities for the academic year, that test becomes an effective yardstick for measuring the extent to which the curriculum is being presented to the students. It assures the teacher that he/she has not omitted important material from the academic program. How is that such a bad thing?

 

Notice, I'm not speaking to the methodology utilized in presenting the curriculum. The methods employed rests with the individual teacher, and that's where academic freedom comes into play as it is the teacher's right and responsibility to determine HOW to present the material so as to make it meaningful for the student. A creative, energetic teacher will provide that curriculum exposure to students in energetic, creative ways. "Teaching to the test" does not automatically condemn students to drudgery, and to imply otherwise is a disservice.

 

Dave

Now this might vary from county to country in the state but when I say they teach to the test I mean they teach to the test. The test is called the FCAT. So the 3rd grade math book would be called 3rd grade math for FCAT. There has been a lot of problems in schools with low ratings where they would, for example, go to PE but PE isn't on the test and learn FCAT. They would go to History (not on the test until this year or next year I can't remember) and learn FCAT. There entire school day from the first day of school until the test was completed in March was all about FCAT. There was an issue with bribes of gifts and food to do well on the test. Kids were developing psychological disorders because of the stress placed on them because of this test. Teachers felt bad putting so much pressure on their students but they were forced to by their principles. Also, to keep an A rating you have to do a certain percentage better then the year before which puts more pressure on the principle and therefor the teachers. In some schools teachers were not allowed to use the test to outline there agendas the test was their agenda.