So Much for Honesty!

[CanadianTwosome]

I'm not understanding how a parent could place their child in an educational system (school, school district) but then think that they can make up their own rules without consequences. Maybe I'm missing something here, though.

 

I think the entire purpose of a school and a school district is to assume responsibility for the education of children, which includes "other peoples' children". If only parents were responsible for their children, then there would be no schools. That doesn't mean parents' rights are taken away, but rather that they work together. Parents don't bear the sole responsibility, and neither do schools. Ideally, it is a collaboration.

 

Yes, each parent should make the choices that are best for his or her child. However, in order for the system to function, limits must be set. If there are rules that aren't followed, then consequences follow. The school/district sets up parameters in conjunction with parental and teacher input. If operation occurs entirely outside those parameters, then what point would it be to have a school or school system? Each parent can make the choice to operate outside those parameters, but not without consequence (negative and positive).

 

My point of view is from the U.S., however. It seems that other countries approach scholastic issues differently.

 

The one thing I agree with here is that a school system exists for the purpose of educating our children. After that... well, we definitely disagree. First, I do not expect the school system to be the sole source of education for my child. What I expect from my daughter's school is instruction, exposure to socialization with others, and supervision while she is within the grounds of the school. That's where it ends. As her parents, WE are responsible for ensuring that she is attending her classes (and expect to have sole discretion as to whether she may be allowed to miss any), WE are responsible for ensuring that she is understanding her lessons and getting the most from what the school offers, WE are responsible for teaching her manners, etiquette, social graces, responsibility, humility, compassion, generosity, respect... well, hopefully I've made my point. The bottom line is that the school is NOT responsible for our child's upbringing or life choices. The school is a valuable resource in our child's development and learning, but it is ONLY that; a resource. ALL decisions regarding our daughter's life are OUR responsibility and nobody else's.

 

Saying that if all parents were responsible we wouldn't have schools is, in my opinion, ridiculous. I may have misunderstood the meaning of this statement, but responsible or not, every parent in the world is not capable of home schooling their children, and illiteracy would be rampant if we did not have access to the education system. Educators outside the home are absolutely necessary, but my personal feeling is that responsible parents do NOT expect anything from their school system except education, and as far as I know, the definition of 'educate' does not include 'make decisions for other peoples' children'.

 

We place a great deal of trust in our school system. We expect the school to give our children the most valuable thing they will ever have - knowledge. At the same time, it's not the only place to gain knowledge, and my husband and I supplement our daughter's school experience constantly. We would not consider ourselves to be responsible parents if we relied wholly on the school system - although many parents do.

 

To add a bit more perspective, also, think about all of the other things in life responsible parents provide for their children. I know that if I had to choose between having a school system and having food available to my child, I'd choose the food. That being said, I don't expect my grocer to make decisions for my child either.

[Cruisin' Chick]

Sorry to butt in here, but it was just announced that the LAUSD has hired PR consultants and has increased the budget for its internal PR function substantially.

 

Think about that. A school district whose operating and instruction policies and procedures are so poor that it needs to spend our education tax dollars on SPIN!

 

On top of that, these jokers on the LAUSD Board have totally messed up the payroll system such that many teachers have gone underpaid or unpaid with no real effort by the LAUSD to fix the problem.

 

I give OceanDreamin tons of credit for her efforts to stay within the system and to play by the rules, erratic as they might be, and for her patience in dealing with the tone deaf bureaucracy.

 

Now....back to the original thread.

 

when I heard this on the news, I thought the same thing. I used to work in PR, but I would believe this money could be used directly on educating the kids. Wouldn't that have a better effect?

[MakinGold]

when I heard this on the news' date=' I thought the same thing. I used to work in PR, but I would believe this money could be used directly on educating the kids. Wouldn't that have a better effect?[/quote']

 

Not necessarily. One of the big problems with many public school systems is that people who can afford to, either send their children to private schools or relocate to more affluent communities with the "best" public schools, leaving other public schools to the lower income families, who provide less of an ecomonic base to the school. Assuming there are some good things going on in your school system, doing a little PR to advertise it might bring more people into your community to help support the school and create a bit of an upward spiral, rather than the downward spiral that the flight from a community school system can generate.

 

I know not all areas are in this situation, but many are.

[lovesublime]

The one thing I agree with here is that a school system exists for the purpose of educating our children. After that... well, we definitely disagree. First, I do not expect the school system to be the sole source of education for my child. What I expect from my daughter's school is instruction, exposure to socialization with others, and supervision while she is within the grounds of the school. That's where it ends. As her parents, WE are responsible for ensuring that she is attending her classes (and expect to have sole discretion as to whether she may be allowed to miss any), WE are responsible for ensuring that she is understanding her lessons and getting the most from what the school offers, WE are responsible for teaching her manners, etiquette, social graces, responsibility, humility, compassion, generosity, respect... well, hopefully I've made my point. The bottom line is that the school is NOT responsible for our child's upbringing or life choices. The school is a valuable resource in our child's development and learning, but it is ONLY that; a resource. ALL decisions regarding our daughter's life are OUR responsibility and nobody else's.

 

Saying that if all parents were responsible we wouldn't have schools is, in my opinion, ridiculous. I may have misunderstood the meaning of this statement, but responsible or not, every parent in the world is not capable of home schooling their children, and illiteracy would be rampant if we did not have access to the education system. Educators outside the home are absolutely necessary, but my personal feeling is that responsible parents do NOT expect anything from their school system except education, and as far as I know, the definition of 'educate' does not include 'make decisions for other peoples' children'.

 

We place a great deal of trust in our school system. We expect the school to give our children the most valuable thing they will ever have - knowledge. At the same time, it's not the only place to gain knowledge, and my husband and I supplement our daughter's school experience constantly. We would not consider ourselves to be responsible parents if we relied wholly on the school system - although many parents do.

 

To add a bit more perspective, also, think about all of the other things in life responsible parents provide for their children. I know that if I had to choose between having a school system and having food available to my child, I'd choose the food. That being said, I don't expect my grocer to make decisions for my child either.

 

I agree that it's a parent's job to raise their child. However, Canada must be different than the U.S. in regards to education. We have something called compulsory education. It means that children are required to attend school a certain number of days per year or else the parents or guardian can be taken to court and eventually put in jail. The maximun age for compulsory education can be 16 to 18 years old. In my state children must attend school until age 16. In fact-if a child is chronically truant the state may take custody of that child. I work for CPS (state agency) and we do it all the time. So, I don't know about Canada or anywhere else, but here-the government does have a say so about how your kids are raised. So I disagree with your statement that school is just a "resource".

I do agree that education doesn't just come from formal schooling.

 

Now, having said that, I see no real problem with a kid missing a few days of school to take a family trip and neither would the school district -for the most part. As a parent I wouldn't do it. Also, keep in mind that the kind of people we deal with on a daily basis aren't exactly the type to cruise or take family vacations.

[themishmans]

There is so much more to life than standardized testing, NCLB requirements and writing a perfect paragraph. As a teacher, I'd rather see a horribly written paragraph with beautiful content. I can fix the paragraph, I can't fix the lack of experience and exposure.

 

 

I just have to comment on this. First, I think you are wonderful.

 

Second, I want to post what happened to DD15 last week. She was assigned a 10 point essay in AP government. When she got the graded essay back, she only got 3 points. On the top of her paper, her teacher had written that the essay was wonderful and she brought up many original points and arguments. However, since those points were not on "the rubric" he could not award her any points for them. :eek:

 

NCLB= No Child Allowed to Get Ahead!!!

[CanadianTwosome]

I agree that it's a parent's job to raise their child. However, Canada must be different than the U.S. in regards to education. We have something called compulsory education. It means that children are required to attend school a certain number of days per year or else the parents or guardian can be taken to court and eventually put in jail. The maximun age for compulsory education can be 16 to 18 years old. In my state children must attend school until age 16. In fact-if a child is chronically truant the state may take custody of that child. I work for CPS (state agency) and we do it all the time. So, I don't know about Canada or anywhere else, but here-the government does have a say so about how your kids are raised. So I disagree with your statement that school is just a "resource".

I do agree that education doesn't just come from formal schooling.

 

Now, having said that, I see no real problem with a kid missing a few days of school to take a family trip and neither would the school district -for the most part. As a parent I wouldn't do it. Also, keep in mind that the kind of people we deal with on a daily basis aren't exactly the type to cruise or take family vacations.

 

Yes, we also have mandatory education, and I'm sorry if I made it sound otherwise. We also have the choice to home school if we want, of course. Mandatory or not, though, my feelings about school remain the same. Comments were made about 'responsible parents', and to me, if a parent is responsible, it really makes mandatory schooling a moot point, since no responsible parent would deny their child an education. I also believe very strongly that if a parent is responsible, they will see the school system as I do - as a resource - a supplement to the commitment we made when we decided to become parents. Before I made any attempt to conceive, my husband and I talked at length about what it means to be a parent (a true, responsible parent), and placing a high value on education was a part of that commitment for us. To us, that means not only having her attend school, but monitoring her education, supplementing it, and encouraging learning through experience as well as formal academics. I would never leave my child's education solely up to someone else; there's no way I would be satisfied with that!! :p

 

I honestly can't tell you what sort of laws are in place to ensure that children attend school; it has never come up for me or anyone I know. I do know, though, that we have two kinds of absences (based on the report cards I get); excused and unexcused. Excused means that a child's parent or legal guardian has alerted the school to the child's absence and has taken responsibility for it. As far as I know, there is not a list of 'excusable reasons' for absence, just the requirement that a person legally responsible for the child has confirmed their knowledge and permission. As I said, I have no idea what would happen if a parent kept their child out of school for more than a certain amount of days... but I'm curious now, so I'm going to see what I can find. I do know that I have been in touch with my daughter's teacher regarding our upcoming trip in January, and we have discussed what her 'assignment' should be while she's away. It looks like we'll be helping her put together a journal; she will choose the pictures and dictate, and my husband and I will do the typing. We're looking forward to making it a special family time for all of us every evening while we're away. :) We're also expecting to see her absences listed as 'excused' on the next report card!

[CanadianTwosome]

Well, that didn't take long at all!! I suppose an argument could be made that I wasn't as responsible as I thought having not researched it before, but in my defense, it really wasn't necessary since I was complying simply through my own principles as a parent. I live in Saskatchewan, and our Education Act states as an exception to school attendance:

 

157(1) A pupil may be exempted from attendance at a school, and no parent, guardian or other person is liable to conviction for an offence pursuant to section 156 where:

 

(a-k)

 

(l) the pupil is absent from school in order to accompany his or her parent or guardian on a period of extended travel outside the school division or the division scolaire francophone.

(2) Where any extended period of travel mentioned in clause (1)(l) is for more than five school days, the parent or guardian shall:

(a) inform the principal of the anticipated period of absence from school;

(b) where the principal considers it appropriate, consult with him or her and any teaching staff that the principal considers appropriate with respect to what measures are to be taken to maintain reasonable continuity in the progress of the pupil in his or her courses of instruction.

(3) While a pupili is accompanying a parent or guardian on an extended period of travel, the parent or guardian is responsible for implementing the measures mentioned in clause (2)(b) to maintain reasonable continuity in the progress of the pupil in his or her courses of instruction.

 

Whew! If only that had been a word document instead of pdf... of course, it's not like I'm not accustomed to typing a lot! ha ha ha

 

There does not seem to be a minimum number of days the child must attend, only the list of exemptions, so I can only assume that if a school is not alerted to a child's absence, or if the absence exceeds a reasonable amount of days for the related reason, authorities will be notified and the absence will be investigated.

 

Obviously, I think this policy is reasonable. Our school funding, as far as I know, is not dependant on attendance. I think it's likely that it has some dependence on registration, but not whether or not the bodies are in the classroom every day. I think this would be appropriate, since a child's absence does not mean the child is not being educated - just that they have to catch up lost time due to illness or other excused absence. As I mentioned in a previous post, I think it's unfortunate that the funding practices that depend on attendance reduce the students to dollar values. I can see where it could be hard for an administrator to be objective about determining whether an absence is acceptable when they are, in effect, penalized if a child misses class.

[goLC]

Just thought I'd throw this in, as actions like this may in part be part of the reason things are "the way they are."

 

3 weeks ago, a parent of one of my 7th grade students came to me (and his other teachers) and had gotten permission for him to miss the last 12 (yes, 12) school days prior to our 2 week Christmas break. They were going to Disney World before Christmas. All of us teachers spent a great deal of time getting everything together (and for me, as many of my science lessons are labs, alternative assignments) - including copying and preplanning everything. Today was to have been his last day at school. I gave him a folder of all of his work, and he said "Oh, we're not going now. Mom got a better deal on our airfare so we're going in January instead." I called Mom to verify, as I thought the child either was mistaken or was trying to get out of taking the work with him. Mom said "We have an illness in the family so we had to postpone." I don't particularly being lied to, so I couldn't let it drop. So I said "___ said you got better airfare, so you'll be going in January." She stammered and stuttered and finally said she had to hang up.

 

I have no doubt I'll have to get all the work together again in January (can't use the same stuff - going from life science to physical science.) And all the days will be excused. AND the mother lied. (So parents, don't be surprised if your child "spills the beans" if you plan to fib about why he is absent. They tell all!)

 

Okay, I feel better... just had to vent. Opinion: is this any different from people who take vacations during school because it's less expensive?

[MakinGold]

Good story, goLC. It's a shame that they wasted so much of the teachers' time like that, but I got a grin out of the way you made the mom squirm a bit about being caught in a lie.

 

One of the things that has surprised me a bit about some of the responses in this thread is the lack of acknowledgement of the work the teachers have to go through in order to prepare lessons for a child who will be missing school. There've been quite a few that seem satisfied that their child is a "good student" and it had no effect on them, as if the school is there just to cater to them. As long as my child isn't affected, it doesn't matter if it affects anyone else . . . .

 

I don't think most people really mean to be that way; it's just that they don't really think about how they might be affecting the teachers. I'm not totally against pulling kids out of school, but I think it should be a rare thing. We've done so once with our son to travel to a wedding on my wife's side of the family. I doubt I will ever do it just for the convenience and lower costs of traveling in the off-season.

[CC Help Michell]

The one thing I agree with here is that a school system exists for the purpose of educating our children. After that... well, we definitely disagree. First, I do not expect the school system to be the sole source of education for my child. What I expect from my daughter's school is instruction, exposure to socialization with others, and supervision while she is within the grounds of the school. That's where it ends. As her parents, WE are responsible for ensuring that she is attending her classes (and expect to have sole discretion as to whether she may be allowed to miss any), WE are responsible for ensuring that she is understanding her lessons and getting the most from what the school offers, WE are responsible for teaching her manners, etiquette, social graces, responsibility, humility, compassion, generosity, respect... well, hopefully I've made my point. The bottom line is that the school is NOT responsible for our child's upbringing or life choices. The school is a valuable resource in our child's development and learning, but it is ONLY that; a resource. ALL decisions regarding our daughter's life are OUR responsibility and nobody else's.

 

<snip>

 

To add a bit more perspective, also, think about all of the other things in life responsible parents provide for their children. I know that if I had to choose between having a school system and having food available to my child, I'd choose the food. That being said, I don't expect my grocer to make decisions for my child either.

 

CanadianTwosome, I thought about the above-highlighted portion of your post off and on today at school, and finally decided that I really did want to address it. Particularly in elementary (grammar) school education, it's the responsibility of BOTH the parent AND the school to monitor the child's attendance, grasp of the instruction, and to teach life skills such as responsibility, compassion, respect, and so forth. I would agree almost completely with your statement I highlighted if the "we" you are referring to included both the parent(s) and the teacher(s).

 

The ideal world for a child is to have adults in their lives (parents, teachers, coaches, ministers, etc.) who talk to each other and communicate, so that everyone is on the same page in helping the child reach their full potential, spot problems early and deal with them, etc.

 

Sadly, many children (at least here in the US, I couldn't say about Canada) either have no parents, or have parents who are ... um... how shall I say this.... "disengaged" from their child's education. I have had a student this year whose mom arrived at school to pick him up early one day -- and didn't know what to tell the office staff when they asked for his teacher's name OR his grade level. I'm in charge of afternoon carpool at our school -- and in October had a mom I'd never seen before show up to pick up her son -- she had a COW when he wasn't waiting for her, and an even bigger one when we investigated and couldn't find him even enrolled at the school -- she started screaming "where's my baby? where's my baby?" It turns out he is a sixth grader and is attending the middle school next door to our elementary this year. That came as a HUGE surprise to his mom! :rolleyes:

 

It might surprise you (given your last paragraph after my snip for space) to know that many US school districts remain open if at ALL possible, even on snow days and the like -- because for them, a huge portion of the students WILL NOT EAT if they don't attend school. The school-provided breakfast and lunch are frequently the entire nutrition those children receive in a day. I know it, I've seen it, I taught in such a system for three years and kept granola bars and cereal boxes in my room for the children who came to school tardy, with nothing in their stomachs since lunch at school the day before.

 

I don't know what it says about our society, but it's scenarios like that (and a thousand more I've seen but will spare you) that have led to the implementation of laws that truly responsible parents may view as interfering with THEIR prerogatives (such as attendance).

 

Like the poster above me, I've also had children innocently "spill the beans" on the flat-out LIE the parents told the school to account for an absence (most recently, this year I received a note from a mom saying that the child would be attending his grandmother's funeral, so please excuse his absence -- on his return, he couldn't stop raving about what a great time he had with his grandmother at Disneyworld the previous week). What exactly are THOSE parents teaching their children about responsibility, etiquette, and respect?

 

From the very beginning of this thread, I've supported the OP's effort to do the right thing, honestly, and I still do. I also furnish makeup work, or work in advance, as needed for children who miss school for ANY reason. So it's not about that -- but I did want to address the above quote. I wouldn't want a public school teaching my child about religious issues, or things like that -- but "social skills" like cooperative teams, tact, being kind in our words and tone of voice -- that's as much up to teachers as to parents... and for some kids what they get at school is ALL they get in that way. All of that feeds into why schools have attendance policies that may be considered inflexible, or even "draconian."

[lovesublime]

Well, that didn't take long at all!! I suppose an argument could be made that I wasn't as responsible as I thought having not researched it before, but in my defense, it really wasn't necessary since I was complying simply through my own principles as a parent. I live in Saskatchewan, and our Education Act states as an exception to school attendance:

 

157(1) A pupil may be exempted from attendance at a school, and no parent, guardian or other person is liable to conviction for an offence pursuant to section 156 where:

 

(a-k)

 

(l) the pupil is absent from school in order to accompany his or her parent or guardian on a period of extended travel outside the school division or the division scolaire francophone.

(2) Where any extended period of travel mentioned in clause (1)(l) is for more than five school days, the parent or guardian shall:

(a) inform the principal of the anticipated period of absence from school;

(b) where the principal considers it appropriate, consult with him or her and any teaching staff that the principal considers appropriate with respect to what measures are to be taken to maintain reasonable continuity in the progress of the pupil in his or her courses of instruction.

(3) While a pupili is accompanying a parent or guardian on an extended period of travel, the parent or guardian is responsible for implementing the measures mentioned in clause (2)(b) to maintain reasonable continuity in the progress of the pupil in his or her courses of instruction.

 

Whew! If only that had been a word document instead of pdf... of course, it's not like I'm not accustomed to typing a lot! ha ha ha

 

There does not seem to be a minimum number of days the child must attend, only the list of exemptions, so I can only assume that if a school is not alerted to a child's absence, or if the absence exceeds a reasonable amount of days for the related reason, authorities will be notified and the absence will be investigated.

 

Obviously, I think this policy is reasonable. Our school funding, as far as I know, is not dependant on attendance. I think it's likely that it has some dependence on registration, but not whether or not the bodies are in the classroom every day. I think this would be appropriate, since a child's absence does not mean the child is not being educated - just that they have to catch up lost time due to illness or other excused absence. As I mentioned in a previous post, I think it's unfortunate that the funding practices that depend on attendance reduce the students to dollar values. I can see where it could be hard for an administrator to be objective about determining whether an absence is acceptable when they are, in effect, penalized if a child misses class.

 

Wow! You did your research. Here in Texas compulsory attendence is required until age 18. So, I stand corrected on that. I do remember it being discussed-changing the age from 16 to 18. Also note that this is not a school district policy-it is state law. Any child missing 10 or more days in an academic school year will not be promoted and the parents/guardian could face prosecution.

 

Absences are only excused because of personal/family illness or death.

Also, religious observences are excused. That's it. The school districts here are very strict in their enforcement of attendence. In fact this happened to us-our son went to private school (Catholic) and they sometimes had different days off than the public schools. One of those days he was out riding his bike on the sidewalk (public school was in session) when he was pulled over by a truancy officer. The officer didn't believe his story about a private school and came ringing my doorbell so I could confirm it.

 

Things seem a little more lenient where you live;)

[skylock]

Sadly, many children (at least here in the US, I couldn't say about Canada) either have no parents, or have parents who are ... um... how shall I say this.... "disengaged" from their child's education. I have had a student this year whose mom arrived at school to pick him up early one day -- and didn't know what to tell the office staff when they asked for his teacher's name OR his grade level. I'm in charge of afternoon carpool at our school -- and in October had a mom I'd never seen before show up to pick up her son -- she had a COW when he wasn't waiting for her, and an even bigger one when we investigated and couldn't find him even enrolled at the school -- she started screaming "where's my baby? where's my baby?" It turns out he is a sixth grader and is attending the middle school next door to our elementary this year. That came as a HUGE surprise to his mom! :rolleyes:

 

It might surprise you (given your last paragraph after my snip for space) to know that many US school districts remain open if at ALL possible, even on snow days and the like -- because for them, a huge portion of the students WILL NOT EAT if they don't attend school. The school-provided breakfast and lunch are frequently the entire nutrition those children receive in a day. I know it, I've seen it, I taught in such a system for three years and kept granola bars and cereal boxes in my room for the children who came to school tardy, with nothing in their stomachs since lunch at school the day before.

 

I don't know what it says about our society, but it's scenarios like that (and a thousand more I've seen but will spare you) that have led to the implementation of laws that truly responsible parents may view as interfering with THEIR prerogatives (such as attendance).

 

Like the poster above me, I've also had children innocently "spill the beans" on the flat-out LIE the parents told the school to account for an absence (most recently, this year I received a note from a mom saying that the child would be attending his grandmother's funeral, so please excuse his absence -- on his return, he couldn't stop raving about what a great time he had with his grandmother at Disneyworld the previous week). What exactly are THOSE parents teaching their children about responsibility, etiquette, and respect?

 

From the very beginning of this thread, I've supported the OP's effort to do the right thing, honestly, and I still do. I also furnish makeup work, or work in advance, as needed for children who miss school for ANY reason. So it's not about that -- but I did want to address the above quote. I wouldn't want a public school teaching my child about religious issues, or things like that -- but "social skills" like cooperative teams, tact, being kind in our words and tone of voice -- that's as much up to teachers as to parents... and for some kids what they get at school is ALL they get in that way. All of that feeds into why schools have attendance policies that may be considered inflexible, or even "draconian."

 

 

I know what you have written is true and that is sad. But just because some children have no family care does not mean mine should be punished.

 

As for the fibs parents are forced to tell the shame in that can be turned around and ask what it says about the nanny state we now live in that responsible parents have to lie to be able to determine what they want for their child.

 

You also add that you do not want your children being taught religion. I'm with you, but what about the ones that have no family envolvement? Don't you want them to have religious instruction?

 

I mean if we are going to take over the feeding of a child, then let's take over ever aspect of their lives. (I also know schools are clothing children) When it gets into those areas it is a whole new ball game.

 

I know you have less of a problem with children missing than others here so I am not pointing fingers at you.

 

It comes down to the fact I am really sorry for those unfortunate children and I do not know what should be done for them (well I do, but most would not go for it), but do not punish me and my family for sorry parents.

 

It is like after 9/11. My 77 year old handicapped mother was pulled out of the line at the airport and taken behind a screen to be searched. Now the last time I checked, 77 year crippled women have never been known to hijack a plane. But it seems this PC environment we live in says we will not discriminate, but what ot leads to IS discroimination.

 

The government has no business telling me how to raise OR educate my child. And that is the bottom line.

[CanadianTwosome]

CanadianTwosome, I thought about the above-highlighted portion of your post off and on today at school, and finally decided that I really did want to address it. Particularly in elementary (grammar) school education, it's the responsibility of BOTH the parent AND the school to monitor the child's attendance, grasp of the instruction, and to teach life skills such as responsibility, compassion, respect, and so forth. I would agree almost completely with your statement I highlighted if the "we" you are referring to included both the parent(s) and the teacher(s).

 

The ideal world for a child is to have adults in their lives (parents, teachers, coaches, ministers, etc.) who talk to each other and communicate, so that everyone is on the same page in helping the child reach their full potential, spot problems early and deal with them, etc.

 

Sadly, many children (at least here in the US, I couldn't say about Canada) either have no parents, or have parents who are ... um... how shall I say this.... "disengaged" from their child's education. I have had a student this year whose mom arrived at school to pick him up early one day -- and didn't know what to tell the office staff when they asked for his teacher's name OR his grade level. I'm in charge of afternoon carpool at our school -- and in October had a mom I'd never seen before show up to pick up her son -- she had a COW when he wasn't waiting for her, and an even bigger one when we investigated and couldn't find him even enrolled at the school -- she started screaming "where's my baby? where's my baby?" It turns out he is a sixth grader and is attending the middle school next door to our elementary this year. That came as a HUGE surprise to his mom! :rolleyes:

 

It might surprise you (given your last paragraph after my snip for space) to know that many US school districts remain open if at ALL possible, even on snow days and the like -- because for them, a huge portion of the students WILL NOT EAT if they don't attend school. The school-provided breakfast and lunch are frequently the entire nutrition those children receive in a day. I know it, I've seen it, I taught in such a system for three years and kept granola bars and cereal boxes in my room for the children who came to school tardy, with nothing in their stomachs since lunch at school the day before.

 

I don't know what it says about our society, but it's scenarios like that (and a thousand more I've seen but will spare you) that have led to the implementation of laws that truly responsible parents may view as interfering with THEIR prerogatives (such as attendance).

 

Like the poster above me, I've also had children innocently "spill the beans" on the flat-out LIE the parents told the school to account for an absence (most recently, this year I received a note from a mom saying that the child would be attending his grandmother's funeral, so please excuse his absence -- on his return, he couldn't stop raving about what a great time he had with his grandmother at Disneyworld the previous week). What exactly are THOSE parents teaching their children about responsibility, etiquette, and respect?

 

From the very beginning of this thread, I've supported the OP's effort to do the right thing, honestly, and I still do. I also furnish makeup work, or work in advance, as needed for children who miss school for ANY reason. So it's not about that -- but I did want to address the above quote. I wouldn't want a public school teaching my child about religious issues, or things like that -- but "social skills" like cooperative teams, tact, being kind in our words and tone of voice -- that's as much up to teachers as to parents... and for some kids what they get at school is ALL they get in that way. All of that feeds into why schools have attendance policies that may be considered inflexible, or even "draconian."

 

I agree with everything you've said here, and believe me, none of what you've said surprises me. I've got quite a few stories myself, from my mother and grandmother the teachers, and from my mom, my sister and I doing noon hour supervision. Please understand that the basis of my post is about responsible parenting. Believe me, I hope that every adult my daughter comes into contact with will set a good example and promote good values and learning, but I simply cannot blindly expect it. Teachers are humans too, and humans are not perfect. One of the things I did say I expect from my daughter's school experience, also, is exposure to socialization with others, and to me that includes making sure that she is learning how to treat others as well as vice versa.

 

I have been very fortunate so far in our daughter's experience. All of her teachers have been wonderful. In my own experience growing up, however, I had more than one teacher that was, for lack of a better term, an idiot. My mom and I were discussing one of them the other day, and believe me, when my mom thinks someone is an idiot, it's a pretty good chance they are. Keep in mind my mom was a teacher herself, so it's not like we didn't have a realistic view of what her job was and how well she was doing it.

 

So, as I said, I absolutely agree with the idea of teamwork and collaboration; I just don't expect to have an equal partner. It's like gambling - I go in with the expectation to enjoy the games and take responsibility for ALL of my money, wins and losses. If I come out ahead, I'm happy. When I send my child to school, I expect to be responsible for everything, and I consider it a BIG win if I get more than just teaching from her educators.

 

It's not that I don't understand that the legislation is there to protect children, I just think that administrators should be able to use some discretion and common sense when evaluating individual students. I've seen the pale faces and dark circles under the eyes; I've gone and gotten food from the 'makeup' room for the kids with 'sugar sandwiches'. I have no illusions about just how irresponsible some parents can be. I will just never believe that it SHOULD be an educator's responsibility to pull up that slack. The children for whom they do are incredibly fortunate.

 

goLC: That mother falls under my definition of irresponsible. She's not only setting a bad example by lying, she is teaching her child that it is okay to not inform people when plans have changed, which to me, is incredibly disrespectful. My answer to your question is that yes, this is different. It's not the fact that they are travelling during the school year that is the issue here, it's the mother's blatant disregard for you and the other teachers, as well as her decision to lie outright rather than be honest and forthright.

 

MakinGold, I'm not sure the parents on the thread are discounting the amount of work the teachers do in these situations. Of course, I can only speak for myself, but I definitely do not. As I've said, I am the child/grandchild of teachers, so I've seen first hand what the job entails. I've also taught at the university level while doing grad studies, as well as tutoring and creating study projects for kids who needed practice (I'm a math geek). For my husband and I, we expect nothing from our daughter's teacher by way of extra work. We asked if she had an assignment that she wanted our daughter to work on, but we did not expect her to put anything together. Both my husband and I are academically inclined and we fully expect to provide the instruction for our daughter to catch up on what she misses. I wouldn't expect anything else; again it's about responsibility; we made the decision to have her miss the provided instruction, so we need to help her catch up.

[Cruisin' Chick]

Not necessarily. One of the big problems with many public school systems is that people who can afford to, either send their children to private schools or relocate to more affluent communities with the "best" public schools, leaving other public schools to the lower income families, who provide less of an ecomonic base to the school. Assuming there are some good things going on in your school system, doing a little PR to advertise it might bring more people into your community to help support the school and create a bit of an upward spiral, rather than the downward spiral that the flight from a community school system can generate.

 

I know not all areas are in this situation, but many are.

 

Actually the problems with the LAUSD are about payroll problems and gang problems. A few years ago my girl's second grade class had many kids new to the school as they had previously gone to private schools. The teacher said to me that they had switched because of high test scores (the API) at this school. At a magnet middle school night we just went to (the schools around here gave presentations about their programs to prospective students and their parents), one coordinator said that he fully expects to get more kids at his school who had previously gone to middle schools. That's probably more due to the economic reasons than anything else. It's easy enough for anyone to research any school in the LAUSD -- how well they did in the state tests, how many kids have been expelled in the past few years, etc. -- this info is on the district website. Spending thousands and more on PR really isn't necessary.

 

BTW, when we transferred our girl out of her home school, it was to a school with a lower API, but because we felt the principal didn't handle bullying very well. And in each instance of a kid who bullied, I discovered that the kids had parents who ignored them or treated them like a trophy child. Each case.

[Cruisin' Chick]

You also add that you do not want your children being taught religion. I'm with you, but what about the ones that have no family envolvement? Don't you want them to have religious instruction?

 

 

Religious instruction has no place in the public school. If the family chooses to not provide it, that's not something the school should be concerned with. Values, such as respect and cooperation, are something else, and I don't necessarily equate with religious training. Even taking the time for prayer isn't appropriate, imo. (as opposed to a child silently praying before a test, etc., that's okay because it's not affecting other children and not calling attention to the act)

[skylock]

Mention religion or sex ed and people are quick to say that that is not an appropriate roll for the school to take.

 

Everything else you are willing let them take control of, but draw the line at that.

 

I don't get it.

 

I draw the line way before that.

 

If how I raise or the decisions I make for my children is brought into question and policies are drawn up because of what has to be done for disadvantaged children, why not give all the power to them because we all know what an excellent job they do?

 

BTW I am in no way blaming the teachers for this mess. You are the front line soildiers and I take my hat off to you. There is no amount of money I would take to do your job.

[lovesublime]

Not necessarily. One of the big problems with many public school systems is that people who can afford to, either send their children to private schools or relocate to more affluent communities with the "best" public schools, leaving other public schools to the lower income families, who provide less of an ecomonic base to the school. Assuming there are some good things going on in your school system, doing a little PR to advertise it might bring more people into your community to help support the school and create a bit of an upward spiral, rather than the downward spiral that the flight from a community school system can generate.

 

I know not all areas are in this situation, but many are.

 

Not always true. Here in Texas we have the "Robinhood" system. Schools are mostly funded by property taxes. Believe me, we pay some of the hightest property taxes in the country. Under "Robinhood" school funding is redistrubuted equitably amount all school districts. So it's not about money here. I don't want to get into it but there are far greater issues ailing some of these school districts that have nothing to do with money. It's mostly cultural. I'll leave it at that.

[clansac]

I just have to comment on this. First, I think you are wonderful.

 

Second, I want to post what happened to DD15 last week. She was assigned a 10 point essay in AP government. When she got the graded essay back, she only got 3 points. On the top of her paper, her teacher had written that the essay was wonderful and she brought up many original points and arguments. However, since those points were not on "the rubric" he could not award her any points for them. :eek:

 

NCLB= No Child Allowed to Get Ahead!!!

 

Thanks for the kind words! I meet a lot of teachers who think like me, but not many who have the chance to teach like me. Too many are afraid of losing their jobs. I was very lucky to be at a school where the principals' goals were to mess with the status quo!

 

Seriously your DD's situation makes me want to scream. Aren't we trying to teach independent thinkers who can make decisions and use logic! ARGH! I do not want our next generation to be a bunch of kids who can only do what's on the rubric. I hate it when kids ask me "Yeah but is this on the test?" I don't know- I haven't written it yet. But it's important so pay attention and actually learn something!

 

 

Totally OT. Thanks for letting me hijack temporarily.

[SusieV]

Wow. I didn't wade through this whole thread but I was shocked at how much of a big deal missing a few days of class was.

 

When I was in seventh grade (and I'm only in my mid twenties!), my SCHOOL took a field trip to Mexico for a week. I attended a gifted elementary school and they obviously felt that attending the trip was more important than a few days of classes, and I agree.

 

If you have a bright kid, a week or two isn't going to hurt them. I'd be surprised if they missed a thing, really. Then again, I found school to be a joke- never went to class and still got As across the board.

 

I'm glad to be in Canada, though- I think that grading districts on attendance and making learning so rigid is insane. Whatever happened to creativity??

[OceanDreamin]

clansac: I agree with you, and wish there were more teachers like you. I know the LAUSD pushes out good teachers, especially at the elementary school level, by requiring they teach the very scripted Open Court Reading. All of my friends who are teachers (who teach in other districts or in private schools) have nothing good to say about Open Court, and that the teachers literally have to read from a script and can't vary from it. I've heard a lot of teachers say they won't teach at LAUSD because of that (Oh, and I'm sure the not getting paid until because of the electronic payroll screwup thing has something to do with it too!;) )Thankfully the teachers at DD's school do the Open Court stuff that they are required to do, but also supplement (as do I), and DD is quite a good reader. Still, that has to be so frustrating to a good teacher, not to be able to tailor a lesson to the learning strengths of the individual students. My Office Manager is in college now working on her teaching credential - she wants to teach 3rd grade. She has said there is no WAY she would teach in the LAUSD!

 

goLC: I am appalled (though certainly not surprised) that a parent would do that (change plans, not inform you, and then lie). As I've said in prior posts, how can I expect my DD to grow up to tell the truth if I don't? Don't these parents realize what THEY are teaching these kids? I know there was a post from another teacher about a child who came back raving about the great time he had with his grandma, when Mom's excuse was that they took time off for grandma's funeral. How can a parent possibly expect their child NOT to talk about their vacation to the teacher, or at least within earshot of the teacher? I just have to shake my head at this stuff.

 

Cruisin' Chick: I'm almost thinking we're talking about the same school! I'm not joking either - I live in Chatsworth, right on the border of Northridge. I enjoy your posts. Maybe we should meet for coffee some time, since were almost neighbors. :)

 

It breaks my heart to read about some of the deplorable situations some of these children come from, and thank heavens for you teachers and social workers who give the children food and kindness and an education. I agree there obviously need to be rules in place so the parents of these children make some effort to at least get their children to school. However, as some other posters have stated, the administrators should have the ability to interpret those rules on an individual basis.

 

Finally, my gripe in this post has been with the Principal, NOT her teacher. I have my own issues with DD's teacher which have nothing whatsoever to do with the vacation. She doesn't like to communicate with parents unless she is forced to do so. I've sent notes a number of times asking for a phone call from her, an e-mail, a meeting, something to discuss concerns I had, and no response. Once she scheduled a meeting with us, but although DH and I were there, the teacher wasn't. She called in sick that day, and never called to let us know she wouldn't be there, and never called to reschedule the meeting. When I sent a note asking her to please reschedule it she said "Parent-Teacher Conferences are coming up in December. We can have our meeting then." I went nuts and wrote her a letter asking my questions, and putting lines for her to write her answers. She FINALLY responded to that. She's a good teacher otherwise. DD is very happy in her class, and is doing extremely well, but boy do I get frustrated with her lack of communication! Okay, sorry for going off on my little rant there . . . Back on topic!

[SweetAngel]

Thanks to all of you who offered condolences about my grandmother. That was a hard week, but I am back to the boards.

 

Now ...

 

Just accept that the school doesn't want kids taken out of school for vacations and be adult enough to accept that

 

Hmm ... a society where we all accept how to think, act, believe ...

It all sounds so ... well ... like a George Orwell novel.

 

The people on this board generally fall into two groups. If you take the time to read the posts on this thread, you should see these generalizations as facts and not mere judgments of mine.

 

Based on this thread alone ...

 

Those who are against taking their kids out of school are the ones most often telling other people what to do.

 

Those who support taking their kids out of school generally do not tell others what to do.

 

So one group dictates rules to people on how they should live their lives. Follow the rules without question. Don't ask others for their opinions. Do as your told.

 

The other group thinks, believes, and acts for themselves.

 

I know which group I'd rather belong to.

 

A quote from my favorite book ... "Judge not lest ye be judged."

[MrsPete]

If you choose to take your child out of school for a family vacation then know that there are consequences... your child will miss part of their education and your school may hold you accountable.

As a teacher, I have to second what you're saying: There ARE consequences for taking your child out of school. If your child's a good student and rarely misses a day, then the consequences may be slight and the "cost" may be well worth the fun that you have on vacation. But don't kid yourself into thinking that there's NO cost. Even in my honors classes, students don't "get it all" without some help -- of course, someone's going to say this isn't true, but 15 years of experience tells a different story.

 

And once you reach high school, the stakes are higher, though students may never even realize the connection. If a student's applying for a leadership position, a spot on yearbook staff, or a place on the cheerleading squad, having missed a large number of days WILL be considered.

 

I'm not really against taking kids out 2-3 days (and when combined with teacher workdays or a holiday, that can easily give you a whole week), but I've seen way too many good students fall behind after missing a whole week to believe that it's a good choice.

Does it affect their school work? Well since I have a meeting this Tuesday with the school to discuss moving my 2nd grader into 3rd grade...I can assure you, it's not hurting her education. :)

Don't do it. I did something similar -- well, I was a little older, but still in elementary school. Academically, it was not a big deal: I was still one of the smartest kids in the class, but I didn't fit in with the older kids. It was a mistake.

 

There is no up-side to progressing through the grades more quickly, but there's a nasty down-side.

[CanadianTwosome]

As a teacher, I have to second what you're saying: There ARE consequences for taking your child out of school. If your child's a good student and rarely misses a day, then the consequences may be slight and the "cost" may be well worth the fun that you have on vacation. But don't kid yourself into thinking that there's NO cost. Even in my honors classes, students don't "get it all" without some help -- of course, someone's going to say this isn't true, but 15 years of experience tells a different story.

 

And once you reach high school, the stakes are higher, though students may never even realize the connection. If a student's applying for a leadership position, a spot on yearbook staff, or a place on the cheerleading squad, having missed a large number of days WILL be considered.

 

I'm not really against taking kids out 2-3 days (and when combined with teacher workdays or a holiday, that can easily give you a whole week), but I've seen way too many good students fall behind after missing a whole week to believe that it's a good choice. Don't do it. I did something similar -- well, I was a little older, but still in elementary school. Academically, it was not a big deal: I was still one of the smartest kids in the class, but I didn't fit in with the older kids. It was a mistake.

 

There is no up-side to progressing through the grades more quickly, but there's a nasty down-side.

 

I agree completely. You cannot take a child out of school for a week and not expect them to miss important instruction. That being said, I feel absolutely confident that my husband and I can provide that for her before, during, or after our trip. I wouldn't consider it if I didn't feel that way.

 

I also skipped a grade, and found the same thing. I got along okay with my peers, but often had at least one friend in a lower grade. Many of my friends were driving when I wasn't old enough to get a learner's permit. It sounds like such a good idea, and you think your child might need it so that they don't get bored, and of course, there's that pride that goes with having an advanced learner... but the social experience of school is so important also, and even a one year gap can make all the difference.

[Cruisin' Chick]

Cruisin' Chick: I'm almost thinking we're talking about the same school! I'm not joking either - I live in Chatsworth, right on the border of Northridge. I enjoy your posts. Maybe we should meet for coffee some time, since were almost neighbors. :)

 

 

Probably different schools. The school my girl used to go to didn't even get a distinguished school award when her current school did (when I ran into the principal at her former school, I did a bit of gloating). But we met a woman a couple of months ago who was new to the area and wasn't happy with the principal at her kid's new school. I live near the border of Chatworth so we're probably close. We may have even been shopping at the Ralphs at the same time.:) Maybe we should meet...lots to talk about.

[MakinGold]

Those who are against taking their kids out of school are the ones most often telling other people what to do.

 

Those who support taking their kids out of school generally do not tell others what to do.

 

There's always more than one way to look at things. You could just as easily say:

 

Those who are against taking their kids out of school are the ones most often thinking of the impact on the teachers and the school.

 

Those who support taking their kids out of school generally only think about themselves.

 

I don't particularly agree with either generalization, but I do think you were being just as judgemental as you were accusing others of being.