Hal- Mexican Riviera 2009

[LAFFNVEGAS]

The Cruise Calendar does not show her in "construction" status for the month of April 2009 ... or for any period in 2009.

 

 

Of course, they might not have updated the calendar yet. However, according to the above the Veendam will be spending the entire month of April undergoing construction (getting her aft-lift), as will the Oosterdam. The Amsterdam spends part of April and May under construction too.

 

But not the Ryndam.

It looks like the Amsterdam and Maasdam will also be in Dry Dock or having something done. Then the Noordam will be having a short Dry or Wet Dock as well.

[RevNeal]

It looks like the Amsterdam and Maasdam will also be in Dry Dock or having something done. Then the Noordam will be having a short Dry or Wet Dock as well.

 

Since it appears to be for all, or nearly all, of the month, my guess is that the Maasdam and the Veendam are bothing getting their aft-lifts, though one would think that they would need to send the ships to Europe for that ... no?

 

As for the Noordam ... she'll be due for her standard dry-docking by then, which is usually 2 weeks. That, or it's a wet-dock. I don't know. I thought wet-docks only lasted a week or 10 days.

[mancunian]

Can anyone tell me exactly when these Mexican and South American cruises for the end of 2009 started booking up. It cannot have been that long ago, so exactly what happened between then when they published the early brochure and the end of March when the whole thing was tossed in the air. I wonder why they ever published it and started taking bookings for something that they probably already knew. It still seems a bit drastic to me. If it is the economy that has been bad for much longer and they already knew about competition from other lines.

[hammybee]

 

They are thinking they will out run the problem in the US without really looking at the spending styles of the Europeans. Cruising is NOT what they think of when they plan their Holiday.

 

I don't know about this. Recreational cruising started in Europe. Most of today's cruise lines have deep roots, in Europe. The seas are full of cruise ships filled with mostly European passengers. The phenomina of mass market cruising, from U.S. ports, is rather young, in comparison.

 

Costa- 13 ships ( most profitable brand in the CCL fleet according to former board host, Doug who seems to know such things

AIDA-5 ships , plus 2 on order ( owned by CCL)

P&O- 6 ships ( owned by CCL)

Cunard- 3 ships ( owned by CCL)

MSC- 9 ships

Fred Olson- 5 ships

Hurtingruten-8 ships

Louis - 13 ships

STAR Cruises- 7 ships in Asia

 

There are dozens of other European botique river cruise lines and luxury niche cruise lines all over the world that most of us have never heard of and yet are popular with Europeans and Asians.

 

The economies in many South American countries, especially Brazil, are on a roll. Russia and Poland are kicking butt. Some of the sharpest fund managers are investing " over there".

 

Flights to Miami from Europe and South America are frequent and bring non U.S. passengers to cruise ports, for Caribbean sails. Flights to California are substantially longer and not practical for a week sailing in Mexico.

 

Only question in my mind is if the world is ready to embrace big box cruising as we have done, to an extent that it will offset some of the weakness in the U.S. market.

 

I do not mean any of this blah-blah to diminish the saddness and disappointment with HAL pulling out of San Diego. Most passengers choose a cruise based upon perceived value. That it's Carnival or Princess, RCL or HAL does not matter when they want a easy to get to, affordable cruise vacation, from a west coast port.

 

Most passengers do not have strong preferences, like those of us who frequent these message boards. Unfortunately there are not enough of us. :o

[hammybee]

Can anyone tell me exactly when these Mexican and South American cruises for the end of 2009 started booking up. It cannot have been that long ago, so exactly what happened between then when they published the early brochure and the end of March when the whole thing was tossed in the air. I wonder why they ever published it and started taking bookings for something that they probably already knew. It still seems a bit drastic to me. If it is the economy that has been bad for much longer and they already knew about competition from other lines.

 

The brochures probably have a 4-6 month lead time. Direct mail marketing is usually intended to stimulate consideration and make the phone ring, not necessarily to sell the advertized product. The intineraries within cruise line brochures often vary from reality, albeit not to this extent.

 

It seems to me the trigger event may have been the actual 2007/8 financial performance, in Mexico. Current season performance, potentially weak future bookings and especially a potential lack of interest from charter organizers/big groups may result in a very different picture than what the end consumer observes, from the comfort of his/her armchair.

 

As sad as these changes are to bear 19 months before the sail date, hundreds of bookings ( according to that onboard officer with 30+ years of experience who posts on these boards) are cancelled each sailing, on or before final payment date. In other words, there is a far greater chance that you would have cancelled your booking with a cruise line than a cruise line is going to cancel its cruise or intinerary.

 

The same used to be true of airlines, before airlines required full non refundable payment at the time of booking. That airlines are cancelling unprofitable flights, intineraries and schedules goes without saying.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Only question in my mind is if the world is ready to embrace big box cruising as we have done, to an extent that it will offset some of the weakness in the U.S. market.

 

This is the BIG KEY the US type of cruising and the cruising and type of ships that Europeans are acustom to are not any where close to what Princess or HAL offers. While HAL is Dutch in many ways it also is one of the Big Boxes. Will Europeans grasp or even welcome in this type of cruising???? It also looks to me like the market is fairly saturated in Europe already. Will they welcome more cruise ships. Granted Princess and HAL have always been in Europe but usually only 1 or 2 ships in any given season. Can this area except and fill 4 or 5 more from each cruiseline:confused:

Those from other countries are coming in droves to Las Vegas because their Euro buys them so much more than where they live. Right now if you walk into the Wynn Las Vegas you would swear you were in Hong Kong. They can fly here cheaply, stay at the Belliagio and gamble to their hearts desire. Frankly I am surprised that the cruiselines are not trying to bring the tourists from over there here. They could do a "See North America Land and Cruise" Bring them to Vegas and L.A./ San Diego then send them on a week to Mexico. Instead of sending U.S. residents 20 emails and snail mailings a week trying to give away air fare to Europe to fill up the ships there already.

[hammybee]

The NCL and RCL sails, in Europe, are heavily marketed to European groups and most of those sails are a United Nations. They have proved there is a market for decent cheap cruises from local ( European) ports.

 

I hear you on the Asian market. It would have been perfect for NCL NA had they been able to offer gaming. I am guessing that Carnival's Ensenada to Honolulu and vice-versa sails, are going to be marketed in Asia for the obvious reasons.

 

I am not sure that world-wide perception of Mexico has the same draw as Hawaii. Most people don't fly for 12 hours to visit Mexico unless they plan to stay planted for several weeks, as the French do in Playa, in August.

 

Do you think big box cruising and prime time TV programming have a lot in common. If you can't draw a decent audiance on Monday, switch the progrm to Wednesday and/or decide if you want to risk going toe to toe with a hit or let that other network owning the evening. Know what I mean?:)

[hammybee]

Here is a link to the "Gringo News" posted by Bill Roddy, back in March.

 

http://www.gringogazette.com/secure/southern/march17_2008/page1/

 

This article, dtd 3/15, reports that HAL was pulling out of Mexico.

I don't buy the reasoning givin by the port agent but nonetheless, I think this was the first with breaking news. Maybe the port agent picked it up from the crew.

[mancunian]

It is very interesting the figures you quote Hammybee of the numbers of passengers who cancel their bookings. I am surprised it is that high. On the other hand perhaps this is one of the differences between Europe and the US. All our cruiselines demand a 10 per cent non refundable deposit, so short of illness people go on what they have booked as unless they can claim it back from insurance they will be out of pocket. Do the other US cruiselines do the same as HAL? Also unless it is for mechanical failure, cruiselines sail as advertised. We do not seem to have the same problem with charters. We are encouraged to book early - P&O and Princess are currently having early booking days for cruises up to March, 2010. This gets a good early reduction, the cabin you want, and also confirmed dinner sitting. After this everyone is put on waitlist for dinner regardless. Makes sense to book early. If you are coming to the Carribean or Panama Canal with P&O on charter flights you need to book this early if you want one of the few premium seats for £300 return.

 

LAFFNVEGAS Much of what you say is true, though I disagree about the Brits not being into cruising as much as the US (though this is probably true of many European countries). The British market has grown and grown. However, in general terms most Brits go for the itinerary not the ship and most will not repeat itineraries. A large proportion of them prefer smaller ships which would just about include the R and S ships. This is why lines such as Fred Olsen have grown so much. Even though we personally prefer smaller ships, we think Fred Olsen is an inferior product to P&O but I am sure they are doing so well because of size. Again many Brits prefer British ships - we are definitely outnumbered because we prefer an American/British mix, preferably with some Australians/New Zealanders as well. However, my main concern is that the market is getting flooded. Like you we are inundated with cheap offers - I am particularly staggered at the low rates of Celebrity in the Baltic. I think so many European ports just cannot cope with more ships and I think cruiselines - particularly those trying to increase their presence are going to find it hard to book berths at many ports.

 

Southampton and Dover have also grown and there is a good following of people who do not wish to fly. The problem however, is that this is fine for Norway and the Baltic, but to sail to the Med from England on even a two week cruise, by the time you have gone down the Bay of Biscay and round Gibraltar over half your cruise is spent just getting to and from. To do the Med from England, particularly the Eastern Med you need to fly.

[hammybee]

Don't know how I forgot to include them in the European line up.

 

Here's a link to their website. Check out the prices and convert to USD.

http://www.hl-cruises.com/redwork/do.php?layoutid=100&node=191441&language=2

 

If Europeans are willing to venture outside their comfort zone in terms of other passengers, the U.S. cruise lines offer a tremendous value.

[hammybee]

It is very interesting the figures you quote Hammybee of the numbers of passengers who cancel their bookings. I am surprised it is that high. On the other hand perhaps this is one of the differences between Europe and the US. All our cruiselines demand a 10 per cent non refundable deposit, so short of illness people go on what they have booked as unless they can claim it back from insurance they will be out of pocket. Do the other US cruiselines do the same as HAL? Also unless it is for mechanical failure, cruiselines sail as advertised. We do not seem to have the same problem with charters. We are encouraged to book early - P&O and Princess are currently having early booking days for cruises up to March, 2010. This gets a good early reduction, the cabin you want, and also confirmed dinner sitting. After this everyone is put on waitlist for dinner regardless. Makes sense to book early. If you are coming to the Carribean or Panama Canal with P&O on charter flights you need to book this early if you want one of the few premium seats for £300 return.

 

Thank you Mancunian for sharing with us how it works in GB.

 

Just to make it clear, they are not my figures. The source is a long time cruise line officer who, has shared on several CC boards that the typical cabin is sold 8X before it is occupied. It implies that U.S. passengers are a fickle lot.

 

Being able to tie up cabin inventory for 18 months with as little as a $100 deposit and then do a " never mind" on final booking date and get one's deposit back, favors consumers. This kind of flexibility more than balances some of the nonscense with charters and changes in intineraries, in my book.

 

I think many here, believe that most Europeans are rolling in the EUR/GBP, now days. If only that were true.....My sense of the typical European traveller, if there is such a thing, is that most are happy to take the inside/outside cabins and prefer lots of variety when it comes to ports or they are apt to plunk down somewhere for 3-4 weeks. Walking to the beach as opposed to being waterfront, is not an issue.

 

The NCL Jade is doing a nice two week intinerary to the Med., this summer from SH. Prices can't be beat and the casual nature of the cruise is very appealing. I suspect Brits will dominate these sailings.

 

So many cruises.....too little time.

[cruisecrasy]

The Cruise Calendar does not show her in "construction" status for the month of April 2009 ... or for any period in 2009.

 

 

Of course, they might not have updated the calendar yet. However, according to the above the Veendam will be spending the entire month of April undergoing construction (getting her aft-lift), as will the Oosterdam. The Amsterdam spends part of April and May under construction too.

 

But not the Ryndam.

 

Just off another thread & they were talking about her dry docking next yr.

 

Whatever, sure hope that is the case - wld hate to see her go elsewhere or worse, be retired :(

[PathfinderEss]

Well, we got official notice from Hal today that our SD round trip 2009 Nov Panama Cruise on the Ryndam for 23 days is canceled. We were offered a 21 day cruise leaving out of all places Los Angeles, round trip, doing the Panama, with assorted ship board credits etc.........we're sorry platitudes

I have my TA busy checking into what is going on with the Ryndam and even more of a question, what is going on with Hal's Mexico cruises.........

Mancunian, we booked our cruise in the middle of March and like I had mention some where else on the boards, it was being promoted very hard by the cruises specialist on board the Ryndam. That was also the same cruise where we stumbled upon the Gringo Gazette with the article taking about Hal pulling out of Mexico. When I brought it up to the CCer's, they kind of dismissed it but now I'm wondering how true was it???

[mancunian]

PATHFINDERESS: Ours is a similar experience to yours. We were on Rotterdam and booked our South America repositioning cruise on Amsterdam on about the 18th March. Very great enthusiasm on board for selling cruises. As the news broke on this board only a few days after that think it would have been better if they had not booked any cruises after say end of October to avoid all this and just said there were likely to be changes.

 

Unlike you we have not heard a thing. TA cannot find out. British HAL rep did not know when approached by TA. As the whole sorry tale unfolds we seem to have moved from the cruises being done by Oosterdam, to a suspicion that cruise will not exist at all as someone on here has said that Oosterdam's cruise through Panama canal has been cancelled. Guess she will probably start South America season from Rio not Valparaiso.

[mancunian]

[quote hammybee

Just to make it clear, they are not my figures.

 

Being able to tie up cabin inventory for 18 months with as little as a $100 deposit and then do a " never mind" on final booking date and get one's deposit back, favors consumers. This kind of flexibility more than balances some of the nonscense with charters and changes in intineraries, in my book.

 

I think many here, believe that most Europeans are rolling in the EUR/GBP, now days. My sense of the typical European traveller, if there is such a thing, is that most are happy to take the inside/outside cabins .... or they are apt to plunk down somewhere for 3-4 weeks. Walking to the beach as opposed to being waterfront, is not an issue.

 

 

I was not implying that you had made up the figure - just surprised it was so high. It may well be good for passengers but is not really good economic practice particularly with a falling economy. The other cruiselines must be laughing all the way to the bank. They have got 10% in their hot sticky hands and are not going to lose it. Yes they get fewer bookings but they are sound ones. Even if cancelled for ill health the insurance company will pay up. Is this all US lines? We have always had to pay 10% for Orient cruises and they must have surely been the same as NCL. Likewise I am sure people pay 10% for Princess cruises. To be honest I prefer the 10% system. I have entered into a contract with the cruise company - if I default I lose my deposit, if they default they have to tell me immediately and make it good. Just me but I don't much like this pie in the sky attitude. I also think if the economy goes worse HAL will get their fingers badly burnt with all the cancellations that might follow.

 

The trouble with HAL particularly in Britain - not sure about the States - is that on your first cruise, and indeed on later cruises if you do not take out options on board is that they do not charge 10% but 20% deposit. This is the other end of the picture and is really too high. If they try to move more ships into Europe and compete they will need to stop this because it can be a deal breaker. Also as I have said before they do not seem sure they really want us to cruise with them. It is very difficult to get info about HAL except perhaps for Alaska. Celebrity, RCB and particularly Princess are much more in one's face.

 

Yes, true the financial pressures are building up in Britain too - though not yet as badly as in the States. You are quite right about the Brits being found in the inside and outside cabins and not generally in balconies or suites. Just a culture difference - most of us prefer to spend the money on something else - a second cruise perhaps, after all we are in our cabins very little. We personally started on insides but have now upgraded to oceanviews following a trip with norovirus on board and the realisation we would hate an inside cabin if we were unlucky enough to be ill but we are unlikely to go up the scale to balconies - too much more of the world to see.

 

I must admit I fell about laughing at your statement about the Brits walking to the beach. The idea of most Brits walking anywhere was funny. Yes, you are right they generally would keep away from the seafront both for the extra cost, but also mainly the crowds. However, the beach would have to have a good car park at the entrance!!! It is however a wrong picture to think of us going away for three to four weeks at a time. Generally I think we get slightly more leave than the US, but most people have limits to how much they can take at a time. If holidaying in Britain in any case they would generally book self catering accommodation for a week, and if in a hotel certainly no more - often less because our hotels are so expensive. All these would incidentally expect a non refundable deposit. Cruising is different. The low end of the market - say Thomson and Island cruises do one week cruises in the Med flying by their own charter flights. The middle range of cruiselines rarely offer cruises of less than a fortnight because as I have said before if saililng from a home port you really need two weeks and if you are flying economy cost comes into it. Having said that P&O and Princess do do two one week cruises - one to Norway, the other to Lisbon and back - but certainly not on a weekly basis as people generally do not repeat.

 

Interesting you saying that American lines offer good deals in Britain. With few exceptions - Celebrity in the Balltic I have already mentioned, they are in line or dearer than Brit lines. We did price Rotterdam cruises last year for the Baltic and they were dearer. Suspect Celebrity is boxing clever and trying to convince the public over here what fine ships they have and they will eventually go dearer. The other cruiseline over here to offer good deals is Azamara - might try them one day. Princess of course competes on a neck and neck basis with P&O.

 

Sorry about the quotes at the top. I just cannot make my computer do it right. Cannot get the blue version at all.

[hammybee]

Mancunian,

 

Yes the fully refundable deposit for passenger cancellations up to final payment date, is across the board, on all cruise lines, with offices based in the U.S., for U.S. passengers.

 

Just because I am curious, I have tried to determine if the nonrefundable deposit thing experienced in Europe is imposed by the cruise lines or the travel agency consortium, selling cruises. If it is imposed by the cruise lines, that would mean there was a different cruise contract than the one applicable to U.S. passengers. I don't know if this is the case.

 

I am also aware ( been told) that European travel agencies require consumers to acknowledge they have read the cruise contract at the time of booking. I think this a fabulous idea that should be practiced in the U.S. because so many passengers really have no idea of their own and the cruise line's rights and responsibilities to each other.

 

The reduced deposit is available as an onboard purchace and is often done across the board as a part of a sales promotion. Of course the Grand Voyages and World Cruises are exempt from this bargain.

 

I do know that some Canadians book cruises with U.S. agencies and pay in USD and get a better price.

 

I got a good laugh with your statements about Brits walking to the beach.

Many Brits vacation on Sanibel and Captiva Islands, in the Gulf of Mexico , off mainland Florida. I have to agree, many seem to prefer to ride than walk. So many have the same issues as we do when in GB, staying on the appropriate side of the road. :D

[mancunian]

Hammybee - I'm not sure whether it is the cruiselines or the travel agents but suspect that it may be the cruiselines for the following reasons:

 

HAL charges more for the deposit - if it was the Travel Agents I would expect the charge to be the same across the board.

 

Our travel agent was not bothered at all about us having the 57 dollar advanced booking on the "proposed" Amsterdam cruise. If Travel Agents had made the agreement would have thought they would have insisted.

 

There again I do not know. I think it is probably the accepted thing for bookings over here and what cruiseline will not want to jump on the bandwagon. Could even be with the fall in the American economy that is one of the thoughts in them all trying to get over here. The old proverb springs to mind "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". With the future so uncertain economywise they may well be feeling they must get some firm bookings to survive.