Hold on to your shorts!!!!! RyanAir to the US-10 Euros

[keltic]

Harsh and polemic campaigns are simply free ads everywhere. It works. It´s immoral, politicaly incorrect, but business aren´t usually moral. They are done on purpose, and O´Leay hasn´t invented it. His principals were copied to Southwest on which Ryanair found a source of inspiration: Herb Kelleher (founder of the airline).

 

I am not surprised at O´Leay shows and Ryanair tactics. BA figures?. Not really good by the way. Just announced today.

[Globaliser]

It´s immoral, politicaly incorrect, but business aren´t usually moral. ... His principals were copied to Southwest on which Ryanair found a source of inspiration: Herb Kelleher (founder of the airline).

I have to say that I find it hard to believe that Herb Kelleher - or, indeed, any of his senior management successors at Southwest - would tolerate this sort of conduct for one moment. The attitude to "other people", whether competitors, staff or passengers, could not be more different.

BA figures?. Not really good by the way. Just announced today.

Actually, apparently considerably better than the market was expecting: shares up +15.5% today.

 

I have to print them out and take them home.

[keltic]

Hi Globaliser. I am not sure if there were a lesser of bigger amount of morality at the time and now, but Southwest had to strive to survive in a very tough enviroment. As one of the first low costs, they had to break frontiers, and had to use sometimes dirty tactics as major ones used in the seventies.

 

But what is similar is: shows. O´Leary has confirmed it many times, that he was his mentor, and source of inspiration. I don´t know which company was, but Mr Kelleher had a dispute with other major airline. He just decided that they should solve the dispute with a arm fight in front of the camara.....he lost. I don´t want to justify it, but if we check the tactics of flag carriers, and the burdens established to independent carriers (still now sometimes), and which have been really dirty (an usually made in subtle way, which at the end was more harmful and effective), smaller players tend to be really aggresive. Ryanair can´t be considered small anyway. However I have in mind Iberia, and his absolute connections (even now) with the "power" to push out competition. I also remember BA vs Virgin, and Vs Laker......as I told low road behavoir is common. Sometimes is too obvious, but sometimes hidden tricks seem to be more obscene.

 

So as you have pointed, I would like to ask you if losses in BA were expected to be higher?. I am not quite aware of BA finances. In Spain they have remarked the fact that probably with the merger, Iberia would have to have a bigger role in the new airline. I hope you can understand the point. It´s hard sometimes telling what one think in foreign languages :-)

[SelectSys]

...

But I do believe that FR's management has crossed the line between being tough and being dishonourable. They are dishonest. They deliberately ignore many laws until they are caught, and even then often continue deliberately to disobey them until there are enforceable legal orders in place requiring them to comply. ...

So yes, even if they have brought low fares to many people and run a commercially-successful business, I wish the company ill as a corporate whole. There is no excuse for doing business like that. It is wrong.

 

Your view on FR is clear.

 

Harsh and polemic campaigns are simply free ads everywhere. It works. It´s immoral, politicaly incorrect, but business aren´t usually moral. They are done on purpose, and O´Leay hasn´t invented it. His principals were copied to Southwest on which Ryanair found a source of inspiration: Herb Kelleher (founder of the airline).

 

I am not surprised at O´Leay shows and Ryanair tactics. BA figures?. Not really good by the way. Just announced today.

 

I agree with the statement that their is no such thing as bad press, I don't really view that MOL's principals were copied directly from Herb Kelleher. The Ryanair model doesn't seem all that close to Southwest at all other than that they fly 737's. Consider that Southwest emphasis on "freedom from fees". Southwest's onboard cabin is equal or better in comfort to most US airline coach cabins. Southwest does not empahsize flying to remote airports in most markets. Ryanair, created a whole new category of airlines - the Ultra Low Cost Carrier.

 

Hi Globaliser. I am not sure if there were a lesser of bigger amount of morality at the time and now, but Southwest had to strive to survive in a very tough enviroment. As one of the first low costs, they had to break frontiers, and had to use sometimes dirty tactics as major ones used in the seventies.

 

But what is similar is: shows. O´Leary has confirmed it many times, that he was his mentor, and source of inspiration. I don´t know which company was, but Mr Kelleher had a dispute with other major airline. He just decided that they should solve the dispute with a arm fight in front of the camara.....he lost...

 

I am not aware of Southwest's dirty tactics. My view is that they survived by creating a business model completely different than that of their competitors. This allowed them to grow while avoiding direct competition with American, United, Delta, and the other legacies.

 

I do know that American Airlines got former US congressman Jim Wright of Fort Worth to sponsor legislation that kept Southwest from unrestricted usage of Dallas Love Field for many years. This certainly restrained Southwest's growth in the Dallas area to the benefit of American Airlines.

[Globaliser]

As one of the first low costs, they had to break frontiers, and had to use sometimes dirty tactics as major ones used in the seventies.

 

But what is similar is: shows. O´Leary has confirmed it many times, that he was his mentor, and source of inspiration.

I have no doubt that Southwest fought and fought hard at times. And I know that O'Leary cites Kelleher as a mentor and inspiration. What is more, Kelleher is every bit as capable a showman to get attention and publicity (as is Branson).

 

But I personally don't know of anything that Kelleher ever did that was as low and dirty as that which O'Leary does almost every day as a matter of routine. I don't believe that any big airline boss is spotless. But if the difference between O'Leary and the rest had to be put into a nutshell, I would put it like this: O'Leary is a man who seems not to know the meaning of "shame". That is what sets him apart, and makes him so loathed by the many who do.

So as you have pointed, I would like to ask you if losses in BA were expected to be higher?

BA hasn't made any losses! Just a rather smaller profit than last year. I haven't yet had a chance to work through the figures myself, but it is clear that the market was expecting things to be less good than they were.

 

The chatter in Spain (as here in the UK) revolves around the relative sizes that the two companies will have in the new merged company, if the merger goes ahead. And that is because the relative share prices have changed. BA's share price has fallen much more than Iberia's, so it has a less good claim (on a share price basis) to be the major partner in the new company. But as we all know, the share price of a company is determined by that very fickle animal called the stock exchange, which does not always behave rationally. And this is why there is quite a lot of debate going on as to whether Ferdi will continue to accept that Iberia should be the smaller partner in the new company, as would be suggested by many other measures by which the two existing companies would be compared.

[keltic]

But if the difference between O'Leary and the rest had to be put into a nutshell, I would put it like this: O'Leary is a man who seems not to know the meaning of "shame". .

 

Well probably, I could share your view in this aspect. But in the case of Iberia, they could write a book of evil and meanness, which could make O´Leary ones to look like child games. They have achieved such level of perverssion (and I would have to put dozens of examples and it would too long), that has gained the "sympathy" of most Spaniards. Even in the case of the Spanair crash, the same day of the accident, SEPLA (most Iberia pilots Trade Union), in a dirty way said....."well we knew that this could happen...". They dominate the media, they dominate the politicians, the minister of transport was a former Aviaco (Iberias franchise in the past) CEO, close airlines (directly) to absord lines, routes....it´s like the dark side of aviation.

 

We have it quite clear in this country. For generations Iberia has submitted the whole country to abusive fares, for years the airports have been designed for their own purposes, and for ages tons of public incomes has been addressed to the ailing airline. Still now, with the help of the goverment Iberia pushes competitors away. With the 80% of the national market dominated, low costs are the only alternative for us.

 

So most of the customers simply don´t pay attention to the tactics as long as someone keeps us connected. O´Leary tactics go to a second place. At least as long as they are an alternative, for example in my local airport Ryanair is almost vital for us. I love BA, and I find the merge to be bad news for BA. Yes, nobody questions O´Leary tactics aren´t nice, but would he have been able to survive if he had acted in a clean way?. Although it´s not justified, would he have achieved what he had, if they hadn´t showed their teeth to the world of monopoly in Europe?.

[keltic]

I do know that American Airlines got former US congressman Jim Wright of Fort Worth to sponsor legislation that kept Southwest from unrestricted usage of Dallas Love Field for many years. This certainly restrained Southwest's growth in the Dallas area to the benefit of American Airlines.

 

Hi SelectSys, good example of how big ones try con crush independent carriers. In fact FR started in the same way, when they got into one of the most profiable niches which was the Dublin-London, which had abussive fares. Fights against the establishment to satisfy consumers. So the strategy although dirty was brilliant. Flag carriers and power which abused consumers. Since FR didn´t have power or political connections, they have been using consumers as a pressure. So "we are a kind of Robin Hood against the flag carriers". "We protect the public". Wrong but really effective. People wanted to hear that.

 

Dirty tactics had been going on for ages in the sector (kicking themselves under the table), and since the EU, goverments and so on backed "their airlines", FR addressed to the public as revenger. I think they have overacted, and they need to change the approach. FR is a big one now.

 

Anyway to put an end to the issue, in which we have diverted a little bit, Ryanair getting into the trasatlántic flights seems a good idea, and quite popular specially for regions like Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow, which has been suffering from cuts, and hub policies. More competence, more flights, more alternatives. We need this in Spain, to break Iberia dominance to South America in Barajas T4, but as Globaliser well says, it seems that it´s a campaign again to hide results. I don´t know why the have to do it. Ryanair still make profits in such a terrible enviroment.