any problems in Jamaica/Cayman Islands?

[jjb415]

I know there are standards of conduct that must be maintained on these boards, or a post will be pulled. Therefore, I am completely at a loss as to how to respond to the selfishness and thick-headedness of certain posters.

 

Thank you. Your screen name is well chosen.

[bhopal21]

No worries! I've been to several FOD gatherings on ships where gay-friendly friends or family members came with their pals. There were NO issues at all. Everyone gets along, and everyone is welcome.

 

We travel with a straight couple and they always attend the FOD gatherings with us and have always been very welcome.

 

Mike:)

[wisebear]

Keyguide, it's true, straight allies are welcome at FOD gatherings. They're cocktail parties, after all, not orgies!! But more seriously, the FOD parties are an opportunity to meet others onboard who will make you feel more comfortable throughout the cruise. I'd be delighted to chat with straight people who wanted to be at the FOD and then encounter them later in the cruise.

[commonsense2]

i'm with quite a few of the other posters - i would never book a cruise that stopped at either of these ports.

[tximprov]

You're absolutely right that America has a long way to go in terms of GLBT treatment. That said, there are MANY parts of this country that have already progressed quite a bit in recent decades. The entire west coast, New England and parts of the Mid-Atlantic have made major progress on GLBT rights to the point of where they are very close to Europe's treatment of our community. There are, of course, parts of the south and Midwest that have a LONG way to go. They are still decades behind the curve.

 

That all being on the table, I can't help but take offense to your comparison of America to Jamaica. While all parts of America might not recognize gay unions or permit gay adoption, our culture, laws and civil rights distribution are light years ahead of Jamaica's. The attitude of Jamaicans towards the homosexual community is that of perhaps Alabama during the 1950s -- and even that might be a generous comparison.

 

Let's get something straight here -- Jamaica's government essentially sanctions the murder of homosexuals. It is a country where the gay rights organization must operate from a secret address because the previous directors had their throats slit, where the torture and murder of gay citizens goes without investigation and without punishment, where POLICE OFFICERS have participated in gay beatings in broad daylight without repercussions, where simply being homosexual is a crime punishable by ten years in a labor camp, etc.

 

This is a horrid country second only in treatment of gay citizens to perhaps places such as Iran, Iraq or Zimbabwe, where gays are executed.

 

America and Jamaica are NOTHING alike.

 

In America, we investigate the murders and tortures of gay citizens. Those responsible are punished. In America, we do not imprison gay people for the sake of them being gay. In America, active duty, uniformed police officers do not participate in mob beatings of gay people.

 

I am sorry, but your attitude is akin to a Jewish person in the 1930s looking beyond Germany's treatment of the Jewish population (keeping in mind this was before the Holocaust) and vacationing in the country, knowing that their money is going towards a government that actively supports and encourages anti-antisemitism, then using the excuse of, "Well, America has a lot of antisemitism right now too."

 

Just keep this in mind -- *Your* tax dollars from your port charges went directly into a government that actively arrests, beats, tortures and murders gay citizens.

 

I did not compare or imply that jamaica and american human rights were equal. I simply stated that our human rights in our own country have a long way to go. I got out of the Military because I could not serve openly. In one of the most liberal states in the country, when a Democrat overwhelmingly won the white house, Prop 8 still passed. Dont forget that it was not to long ago a couragous couple in Texas fought to overturn sodomy laws, in a case where the police busted down their door with no probable cause and arrested them. And to pull the hollocaust out of the bag is well...republican....dont forget homosexuals were right there with the jews. I am not trying to say nothing is wrong with Jamaica. YOu dont have to be gay to be murdered around the world, simply being American is enough these days. I am simply stateing I will not let fear and loathing keep me from enjoying myself. How knoble you are to withhold your port taxes by not cruising through there. Im sure it doesnt compare to the other ways in which you fight for the human rights of those impoverished there. Keep up the good work.

[garykool81]

Where to begin...

 

I did not compare or imply that jamaica and american human rights were equal. I simply stated that our human rights in our own country have a long way to go.

 

Correct. You used our situation in America as a sort of excuse for it being OK for you to personally inject your finances directly into an economy that supports the imprisonment and brutalization of gay citizens at a level not seen anywhere in the world with exception of perhaps the Middle East.

 

I got out of the Military because I could not serve openly.

 

Over 75% of Americans support allowing gays to openly serve in the military, according to polls in recent years. The only reason you are in the situation you are in is because the lawmakers in Washington are too squeamish to push through legislation to change the matter. Change will only come to that issue when people continue to speak up and push for it, and the opportunity for that is now.

 

In Jamaica, if you announce that you are a homosexual, you WILL die. It is not a question of if -- you WILL be murdered, tortured, or imprisoned for ten years in a labor camp -- that is if you're lucky and the locals don't get to you first.

 

 

In one of the most liberal states in the country, when a Democrat overwhelmingly won the white house, Prop 8 still passed. Dont forget that it was not to long ago a couragous couple in Texas fought to overturn sodomy laws, in a case where the police busted down their door with no probable cause and arrested them.

 

Prop 8 passed in California by a narrow margin. Not ten years ago, legislation banning gay marriage passed in California by a staggering majority north of 60%. Less than a decade later, they could barely pass Prop 8 with 52% of the voters supporting them. That is social progress in the right direction. Keep in mind that in California, until Prop 8 is overturned (and it WILL be in the not too distant future) gay couples can still form civil unions that are the strongest in the nation, adopt children, etc.

 

In Jamaica, gay couples have ZERO rights. They are invisible to society. They do not exist. Living with another person of the same sex would be a death sentence in that country.

 

The issue in Texas that you are referring to resulted in the Supreme Court ruling that states and government cannot arrest two adults for consensual sexual acts performed in the privacy of their own home. Again -- we took steps forward while Jamaica remains in the past with NO sign of progress. Politicians in Jamaica will not even acknowledge the issue of gay rights -- it simply does not matter to the public there.

 

 

And to pull the hollocaust out of the bag is well...republican....dont forget homosexuals were right there with the jews.

 

I specifically did NOT mention the holocaust when making my comparison. In fact, I went out of my way to state that the example I was using was well BEFORE the holocaust started. I stated that visiting Jamaica today as a gay man or woman knowing the situation that exists there would be the same as a Jewish-American choosing to vacation in Germany in the early 1930s, **BEFORE the Holocaust**, knowing the social climate that exists there for Jewish citizens.

 

Secondly, I do not forget that homosexuals were persecuted during the Holocaust. I did not use them in the analogy, since the point was the draw a comparison outside of our own community.

 

Since you do not see the irony in a gay person voluntarily giving their money to Jamaica's government, it was necessary to invoke an additional comparison. The best example is a Jewish-American choosing to vacation in pre-Holocaust Germany in the 1930s, when Jew's were frequently targeted by violence from the public, harassment from police, etc.

 

Get it?

 

 

I am not trying to say nothing is wrong with Jamaica. YOu dont have to be gay to be murdered around the world, simply being American is enough these days. I am simply stateing I will not let fear and loathing keep me from enjoying myself.

 

No, but you do have to visit places such as Jamaica or the Middle East in order to be targeted SPECIFICALLY for being a homosexual. There are many "dangerous" places to vacation or travel throughout our globe, but there are very few where gays are specifically targeted for brutality by the public and government.

 

 

How knoble you are to withhold your port taxes by not cruising through there. Im sure it doesnt compare to the other ways in which you fight for the human rights of those impoverished there. Keep up the good work.

 

I detect sarcasm here, so I'll address it as such. Let's get something straight -- my partner and I fight for gay rights on a daily basis at a level that I can ensure you outweighs the participation of the average gay American. We both fought viciously against Prop 8's passage in California and invested our time, hearts and hard-earned dollars to seeing it defeated. We are at the front lines of the gay rights protests that you saw across the country several weeks ago. We give annually to gay rights organizations throughout the country and world.

 

That is why the attitude of visiting a country purely because, "I want to see it, and I get what I want" offends people like me at a level that perhaps you cannot imagine.

 

Conjure up the image of you taking dollars out of your pocket, and then handing to a uniformed police officer who in turn beats and eventually murders a gay man sitting in front of you in Jamaica.

 

That is where your port fees and tourist dollars go -- to finance a government that openly condones an environment of physical hostility towards and brutalization of the gay community.

 

And, that government's attitude will stay the same as long as people choose to "look the other way" when choosing to vacation there, as tourism of course is the backbone of their economy.

[etoile]

Gary, I just have to say your posts are phenomenal. Not because I agree with you (which I do) but because they are well-reasoned, intelligent, and well-argued. Thanks for bringing level-headedness to this discussion.

[Pussycat]

Well said Gary. I agree with your every point.

[keyguide]

I have been warned by several travel books and websites that there is rampant homophobia in the Caribbean, especially Jamaica. My partner and I have booked a shore excursion with the cruise line in Jamaica and plan to do some snorkeling on our own in the Cayman Islands. We don't normally engage in any PDA beyond occaisional hand-holding, but we also have never made any conscious effort to pretend we're not a couple. Should we be concerned? Has anyone here been to these areas and had a good/bad experience?

 

Keyguide, it's true, straight allies are welcome at FOD gatherings. They're cocktail parties, after all, not orgies!! But more seriously, the FOD parties are an opportunity to meet others onboard who will make you feel more comfortable throughout the cruise. I'd be delighted to chat with straight people who wanted to be at the FOD and then encounter them later in the cruise.

Thanks for your response. I did not want to make others uncomfortable by my presence.My friend is new to cruising and I want him to get the most out of the experience.

[tximprov]

Where to begin...

 

 

 

Correct. You used our situation in America as a sort of excuse for it being OK for you to personally inject your finances directly into an economy that supports the imprisonment and brutalization of gay citizens at a level not seen anywhere in the world with exception of perhaps the Middle East.

 

 

 

Over 75% of Americans support allowing gays to openly serve in the military, according to polls in recent years. The only reason you are in the situation you are in is because the lawmakers in Washington are too squeamish to push through legislation to change the matter. Change will only come to that issue when people continue to speak up and push for it, and the opportunity for that is now.

 

In Jamaica, if you announce that you are a homosexual, you WILL die. It is not a question of if -- you WILL be murdered, tortured, or imprisoned for ten years in a labor camp -- that is if you're lucky and the locals don't get to you first.

 

 

 

 

Prop 8 passed in California by a narrow margin. Not ten years ago, legislation banning gay marriage passed in California by a staggering majority north of 60%. Less than a decade later, they could barely pass Prop 8 with 52% of the voters supporting them. That is social progress in the right direction. Keep in mind that in California, until Prop 8 is overturned (and it WILL be in the not too distant future) gay couples can still form civil unions that are the strongest in the nation, adopt children, etc.

 

In Jamaica, gay couples have ZERO rights. They are invisible to society. They do not exist. Living with another person of the same sex would be a death sentence in that country.

 

The issue in Texas that you are referring to resulted in the Supreme Court ruling that states and government cannot arrest two adults for consensual sexual acts performed in the privacy of their own home. Again -- we took steps forward while Jamaica remains in the past with NO sign of progress. Politicians in Jamaica will not even acknowledge the issue of gay rights -- it simply does not matter to the public there.

 

 

 

 

I specifically did NOT mention the holocaust when making my comparison. In fact, I went out of my way to state that the example I was using was well BEFORE the holocaust started. I stated that visiting Jamaica today as a gay man or woman knowing the situation that exists there would be the same as a Jewish-American choosing to vacation in Germany in the early 1930s, **BEFORE the Holocaust**, knowing the social climate that exists there for Jewish citizens.

 

Secondly, I do not forget that homosexuals were persecuted during the Holocaust. I did not use them in the analogy, since the point was the draw a comparison outside of our own community.

 

Since you do not see the irony in a gay person voluntarily giving their money to Jamaica's government, it was necessary to invoke an additional comparison. The best example is a Jewish-American choosing to vacation in pre-Holocaust Germany in the 1930s, when Jew's were frequently targeted by violence from the public, harassment from police, etc.

 

Get it?

 

 

 

 

No, but you do have to visit places such as Jamaica or the Middle East in order to be targeted SPECIFICALLY for being a homosexual. There are many "dangerous" places to vacation or travel throughout our globe, but there are very few where gays are specifically targeted for brutality by the public and government.

 

 

 

 

I detect sarcasm here, so I'll address it as such. Let's get something straight -- my partner and I fight for gay rights on a daily basis at a level that I can ensure you outweighs the participation of the average gay American. We both fought viciously against Prop 8's passage in California and invested our time, hearts and hard-earned dollars to seeing it defeated. We are at the front lines of the gay rights protests that you saw across the country several weeks ago. We give annually to gay rights organizations throughout the country and world.

 

That is why the attitude of visiting a country purely because, "I want to see it, and I get what I want" offends people like me at a level that perhaps you cannot imagine.

 

Conjure up the image of you taking dollars out of your pocket, and then handing to a uniformed police officer who in turn beats and eventually murders a gay man sitting in front of you in Jamaica.

 

That is where your port fees and tourist dollars go -- to finance a government that openly condones an environment of physical hostility towards and brutalization of the gay community.

 

And, that government's attitude will stay the same as long as people choose to "look the other way" when choosing to vacation there, as tourism of course is the backbone of their economy.

 

 

I will simply state....I will not hide and isolate myself because I am gay. I missed to much growing up because I was afraid to go to places or do things for fear that people would know I was gay. I will not do that anymore. The government of Jamaica does horrible things to their people. I will not argue that. Isolate your self if you wish. Be offended if you so choose to be. I have been to Saudi Arabia and stood at "chop-chop" square. I have walked through the Brandengurg gate and processed through checkpoint charlie. I have toured concentration camps in Germany. So I dont need your civics lecture. So you have marched for prop 8, what have you done for those in Jamaica other than not give them your port fees? What a difference it has made. I can take the critisism, I was taking it before you were born. So isolate yourself from those who differ with you and surround yourself with those who think you are eloquent or make you more comfortable. But remember, your preaching to the choir when you do that. It is easy to surround yourself with those who agree with you, but you accomplish nothing by hiding from those who disagree. I will not respond anymore to this thread, as it will accomplish nothing. You enjoy your cruises, and I shall enjoy mine.

[garykool81]

I have toured concentration camps in Germany. So I dont need your civics lecture.

 

...and given the attitude of your posts, you would be vacationing in Germany while it was under control of the Naz* [censored by CruiseCritic] government simply because you wanted to see it and not "hide" or "isolate" yourself. You wouldn't bother thinking twice about the morality of sending your tourism dollars towards a government that was encouraging brutality towards an entire demographic of society that had done no wrong.

 

So isolate yourself from those who differ with you and surround yourself with those who think you are eloquent or make you more comfortable. But remember, your preaching to the choir when you do that. It is easy to surround yourself with those who agree with you, but you accomplish nothing by hiding from those who disagree. I will not respond anymore to this thread, as it will accomplish nothing. You enjoy your cruises, and I shall enjoy mine.

 

I am sorry, but unless you were openly gay in Jamaica and Saudi Arabia during your visits, you are *just* as isolated as I am. Seeing as you are not deceased or in a slave labor camp, I have a rather strong idea that you were quite careful to hide under cover during your visits.

 

Beyond that, if I were interested in surrounding myself with only those who agreed with me, we wouldn't be having this conversation on this board, now would we?

 

This has absolutely *nothing* to do with isolating myself into a colony of gay sub-culture where everyone agrees with me. Quite the contrary. If that were the case, I wouldn't visit places such as Bermuda, the Bahamas or the rest of the Caribbean where gays receive relatively sub-par treatment.

 

This is a *morality* issue, but you still seem to not be getting that. There is a huge difference between visiting a place where being gay is still considered taboo and visiting a country where the government actively hunts, imprisons, tortures and murders gay people.

 

This is a matter that is specifically about NOT being isolated. This is about exerting pressure through the international community and tourism industries that will eventually get the current government over in Jamaica to begin reconsidering their treatment of their gay citizens.

 

When an entire country wrongs a demographic of people who are defenseless, you *stop rewarding them* with your tourism dollars.

 

In places such as Grand Cayman, progress is slowly but surely being made in the correct direction as a result of massive negative publicity that the country saw after a series of anti-gay incidents...ones that I might add make Grand Cayman's government look like Santa Claus compared to Jamaica's.

 

When countries do something that is immensely wrong, the UN cuts off their money line. They lose their tourism dollars, lose their bank accounts, lose their ability to trade, lose their international recognition and prestige, etc.

 

Why do you think that is?

[garykool81]

Gary, I just have to say your posts are phenomenal. Not because I agree with you (which I do) but because they are well-reasoned, intelligent, and well-argued. Thanks for bringing level-headedness to this discussion.

 

Thanks :-)

[wripro]

Garykool81,

 

I wholeheartedly endorse your every post and admire the eloquence with which you state your points. However I think you are wasting your energy trying to convince tximprov that there is a fundamental flaw in his logic. It is like trying to argue with people who voted for a certain president twice.

[garykool81]

Garykool81,

 

I wholeheartedly endorse your every post and admire the eloquence with which you state your points. However I think you are wasting your energy trying to convince tximprov that there is a fundamental flaw in his logic. It is like trying to argue with people who voted for a certain president twice.

 

Agreed. It is just extra frustrating when it is "one of us" with that sort of perspective or outlook on the world.

 

That said, I also know gay people who voted for you know who twice in a row...so I guess I shouldn't be too shocked.

[tximprov]

Garykool81,

 

I wholeheartedly endorse your every post and admire the eloquence with which you state your points. However I think you are wasting your energy trying to convince tximprov that there is a fundamental flaw in his logic. It is like trying to argue with people who voted for a certain president twice.

 

 

I didnt vote for "you know who". you are right, you will not convince me of a fundamental flaw in my logic. Your not capable of seeing anyones logic other than your own self rightous logic. Gary has post few more than a few posts about this subject and all to the "Gay" community. preaching to the choir. his "eloquence" and "level headness" praised. jump down off your pedestool, and make your argument in the ports of call forum or how about in the regular topics. You donate money and march in a protest but you never answered what you have done for the cause for these poeple. you act as if I write a blank check to their government. and as if I go there all the time. If it were not on the itenerary I would not have gone. Not that i have to explain myself to you or anyone else. I am my own man. My partner and I did not hide as Gary suggested or covertly scamper around. We took a cab and went to the beach. Did we carry a pride flag and say by the way were gay? No, I dont do that here at home. I intergrate myself into society not isolate myself from it. Since your such the activist, why dont you go to the country and see the situation for yourself instead of reading a few articles on wickapedia. Why dont you coordinate the the community there and instead of an excursion volunteer at the headquarters and work for their rights. It is so easy to cut and paste and regurgitate what you have read to flame someone else. Th OP asked if there was any cause to be alarmed when they visit. As long as you act appropriately there were no problems. Would I walk through town not on an excursion....not even if I were strait. But there are parts of America I wouldnt do that in either. So stand by each other and shout hurrah we are the new crusaders, but then look in the mirror and say what have I really done....you might be surprised if you answer honestly.

[JB Fort Lauderdale]

This really isn't the place to be waving the Pride Flag or discussing social issues. The OP asked if Jamaica is safe. It is NOT safe and hasn't been safe for anyone gay for years and most likely won't be safe for years to come. Jamaica is the worst and most dangerous of any Caribbean island. If your going ashore, stay with the tour.

 

Maybe because I live in South Florida I hear more about this then the rest of the country, but gay people are killed by locals in Jamaica as recently as June of this year and officials don't care! http://www.towleroad.com/2008/06/series-of-gay-s.html

 

As I stated before, you don't support any place that doesn't have human rights, (or whatever you want to call it) and that includes areas in the middle east as well, which is equally a radical and dangerous place.

[garykool81]

I didnt vote for "you know who". you are right, you will not convince me of a fundamental flaw in my logic. Your not capable of seeing anyones logic other than your own self rightous logic. Gary has post few more than a few posts about this subject and all to the "Gay" community. preaching to the choir. his "eloquence" and "level headness" praised. jump down off your pedestool, and make your argument in the ports of call forum or how about in the regular topics.

 

Actually, I voice my opinion of human rights violations in Jamaica whenever the topic comes up -- not just among gay friends. I will voice that opinion among co-workers, strangers, anyone who mentions an idea of visiting the island. Typically, when they find out what goes on there, the average person I've spoken to (straight or gay) is horrified and immediately rethinks their vacation plans.

 

You continue to purport the idea that you "know me" and are aware of my involvements in the gay-rights movement, or how I live my life. You don't. We haven't met. Knock it off.

 

 

You donate money and march in a protest but you never answered what you have done for the cause for these poeple.

 

I've already explained what I have done for the global gay rights movement. Participating in gay rights organizations at home in America as well as human rights organizations abroad have a global impact. Just because I am not "on the ground" in Jamaica doesn't mean that I cannot attempt to help or alter the situation there as much as a single person is physically able.

 

 

you act as if I write a blank check to their government. and as if I go there all the time. If it were not on the itenerary I would not have gone.

 

You provided the government of Jamaica with money directly from whatever you spent ashore, shore excursions and port charges. You don't get to decide where that money goes. You don't get to decide who is or who is not tortured, imprisoned or murdered with the money you left on that island. The homophobic, gay-hating government of Jamaica will do whatever they want with your money. That is a blank check, my friend.

 

My partner and I did not hide as Gary suggested or covertly scamper around. We took a cab and went to the beach. Did we carry a pride flag and say by the way were gay? No, I dont do that here at home. I intergrate myself into society not isolate myself from it.

 

No one was wondering if you pranced around with a gay pride flag announcing that you were homosexual. But, I can guarantee that during your visit to Saudi Arabia and Jamaica, you withheld from whatever normal, even discreet, physical affections one might show each other in public. Whether it be holding hands, walking quite close to one another, or even placing an arm around another while on the beach, I can guarantee you that you didn't dare do any of the above.

 

Let's get something straight for the third time -- there is a big difference between areas of the world where such actions might elicit a dirty look from a random passer-by and areas of the world (such as Jamaica or Saudi Arabia) where gay citizens or anyone perceived as gay is *actively* hunted, murdered or placed into labor camps.

 

You mention integrating yourself into society rather than isolating yourself from it. No one who disagrees with you here is advocating forming colonies of "gay folk." That is isolation. The folks here are happy to visit many parts of the world where gay people do not receive the best treatment -- but we draw the line at places that specifically target, hunt down, murder, torture and imprison gays on a regular basis.

 

Since your such the activist, why dont you go to the country and see the situation for yourself instead of reading a few articles on wickapedia. Why dont you coordinate the the community there and instead of an excursion volunteer at the headquarters and work for their rights. It is so easy to cut and paste and regurgitate what you have read to flame someone else.

 

How about this -- you stop questioning my participation in the gay rights movement, and I'll promise not to proofread your posts.

 

Secondly, if you think I am some ill-educated young adult researching via Wikipedia, then cut and pasting what I find, you are sorely mistaken. I spent many years working in journalism before exiting the field, and I know how to quite easily research, verify and then publish information without skewing the facts.

 

 

Th OP asked if there was any cause to be alarmed when they visit. As long as you act appropriately there were no problems. Would I walk through town not on an excursion....not even if I were strait. But there are parts of America I wouldnt do that in either. So stand by each other and shout hurrah we are the new crusaders, but then look in the mirror and say what have I really done....you might be surprised if you answer honestly.

 

As long as you act appropriately? So, you shouldn't look at another man on the beach because it is inappropriate? Keep in mind that a gay man was murdered not too long ago in Jamaica for simply LOOKING at another man on the beach.

 

Again, let's make things clear --

 

1. You say "act appropriate." By that, you mean hide the fact that you are gay.

 

2. You say "integrate into society, not isolate from it," by which you again mean simply mask who you are. Follow that society's rules -- if they say being gay is evil, then you play by the book. After all, you are in THEIR country, right?

 

As far as me "looking in the mirror and asking what I have done" for the gay rights movement, I'll again ask that you stop questioning my involvement in the gay rights movement. If you'd like to get together a "gay rights experience" list and compare credentials, feel free to email me. I'd be happy to have that conversation with you.

 

On the current topic, I'll tell you what I HAVE done for the people of Jamaica (aside from helping the international community in my own petty ways to pressure their government). I have NOT vacationed there. I have NOT provided hard-earned dollars to a government that would do little to protect a gay genocide from occurring in their country. I have done everything physically possible to vocalize to those I know and those I meet the human rights situation that exists there for homosexuals. Knowledge = Power.

 

I was thinking as I was writing this about your earlier objection, incorrectly so I might add, that I had compared the situation of gays in Jamaica to the Holocaust in Germany. I had gone out of my way to specify that I wasn't making that comparison on that post, but let's go ahead and play devil's advocate for a moment and travel down that road.

 

Gays in Saudi Arabia and Jamaica are placed into prison labor camps, beaten, tortured and in many cases murdered for being homosexual. These countries both actively hunt those who are identified as being homosexual.

 

Do you truly believe that the situation is all that different from what Germany did during the Holocaust? Do you really think that if gay people were as physically easy to identify as someone of a certain racial or ethnic background that we wouldn't be actively rounded up, imprisoned and executed in countries such as those you have vacationed in? Do you think if gay people all had a certain-sounding last name that there would still be any of us alive in places such as Jamaica or Saudi Arabia.

 

Now that I think of it, the only reason the situation for homosexuals in countries such as those ISN'T as bad as it was for Jews in Germany during World War II is most likely because we aren't as easy to identify.

 

You have continued to divert the actual subject of this debate into other areas. Instead of discussing the morality of visiting places such as Saudi Arabia and Jamaica, you have consistently brought up this idea of some gay people "isolating" themselves from the world. You continue to compare Jamaica to America in your posts, stating that there are "some places" in America that you wouldn't walk down the street. I've already addressed the staggering differences between America, our government and the situation in Jamaica. I won't rehash the same points over and over again.

 

You still haven't addressed one of the first comparisons I made in my initial arguments -- Would you find it morally acceptable for a Jewish-American to vacation in Germany in the early 1930s, prior to the holocaust, knowing the social and legal climate that existed for Jewish citizens in that country?

 

If you're answer is "No," then I am perplexed as to how you can justify a gay American visiting Saudi Arabia or Jamaica knowing full well the legal and social climate that exists for homosexuals in those nations.

 

If you're answer is "Yes," then you might want to revisit the fundamental ideas of what makes something morally acceptable and morally objectionable.

[LivingDreamerATL]

My partner and I have visited Nassau a couple of times and didn't experience any homophobia at all...A couple of years ago, we went to Ocho Rios and had a very minor encounter with a crazy lady who commented on his Louis Vitton briefcase, but after I shot her a look she shut up quickly...I just find the aggressiveness of the people and their hunger for the American dollar a bit too much...

[tximprov]

Actually, I voice my opinion of human rights violations in Jamaica whenever the topic comes up -- not just among gay friends. I will voice that opinion among co-workers, strangers, anyone who mentions an idea of visiting the island. Typically, when they find out what goes on there, the average person I've spoken to (straight or gay) is horrified and immediately rethinks their vacation plans.

 

You continue to purport the idea that you "know me" and are aware of my involvements in the gay-rights movement, or how I live my life. You don't. We haven't met. Knock it off.

 

 

 

 

I've already explained what I have done for the global gay rights movement. Participating in gay rights organizations at home in America as well as human rights organizations abroad have a global impact. Just because I am not "on the ground" in Jamaica doesn't mean that I cannot attempt to help or alter the situation there as much as a single person is physically able.

 

 

 

 

You provided the government of Jamaica with money directly from whatever you spent ashore, shore excursions and port charges. You don't get to decide where that money goes. You don't get to decide who is or who is not tortured, imprisoned or murdered with the money you left on that island. The homophobic, gay-hating government of Jamaica will do whatever they want with your money. That is a blank check, my friend.

 

 

 

No one was wondering if you pranced around with a gay pride flag announcing that you were homosexual. But, I can guarantee that during your visit to Saudi Arabia and Jamaica, you withheld from whatever normal, even discreet, physical affections one might show each other in public. Whether it be holding hands, walking quite close to one another, or even placing an arm around another while on the beach, I can guarantee you that you didn't dare do any of the above.

 

Let's get something straight for the third time -- there is a big difference between areas of the world where such actions might elicit a dirty look from a random passer-by and areas of the world (such as Jamaica or Saudi Arabia) where gay citizens or anyone perceived as gay is *actively* hunted, murdered or placed into labor camps.

 

You mention integrating yourself into society rather than isolating yourself from it. No one who disagrees with you here is advocating forming colonies of "gay folk." That is isolation. The folks here are happy to visit many parts of the world where gay people do not receive the best treatment -- but we draw the line at places that specifically target, hunt down, murder, torture and imprison gays on a regular basis.

 

 

 

How about this -- you stop questioning my participation in the gay rights movement, and I'll promise not to proofread your posts.

 

Secondly, if you think I am some ill-educated young adult researching via Wikipedia, then cut and pasting what I find, you are sorely mistaken. I spent many years working in journalism before exiting the field, and I know how to quite easily research, verify and then publish information without skewing the facts.

 

 

 

 

As long as you act appropriately? So, you shouldn't look at another man on the beach because it is inappropriate? Keep in mind that a gay man was murdered not too long ago in Jamaica for simply LOOKING at another man on the beach.

 

Again, let's make things clear --

 

1. You say "act appropriate." By that, you mean hide the fact that you are gay.

 

2. You say "integrate into society, not isolate from it," by which you again mean simply mask who you are. Follow that society's rules -- if they say being gay is evil, then you play by the book. After all, you are in THEIR country, right?

 

As far as me "looking in the mirror and asking what I have done" for the gay rights movement, I'll again ask that you stop questioning my involvement in the gay rights movement. If you'd like to get together a "gay rights experience" list and compare credentials, feel free to email me. I'd be happy to have that conversation with you.

 

On the current topic, I'll tell you what I HAVE done for the people of Jamaica (aside from helping the international community in my own petty ways to pressure their government). I have NOT vacationed there. I have NOT provided hard-earned dollars to a government that would do little to protect a gay genocide from occurring in their country. I have done everything physically possible to vocalize to those I know and those I meet the human rights situation that exists there for homosexuals. Knowledge = Power.

 

I was thinking as I was writing this about your earlier objection, incorrectly so I might add, that I had compared the situation of gays in Jamaica to the Holocaust in Germany. I had gone out of my way to specify that I wasn't making that comparison on that post, but let's go ahead and play devil's advocate for a moment and travel down that road.

 

Gays in Saudi Arabia and Jamaica are placed into prison labor camps, beaten, tortured and in many cases murdered for being homosexual. These countries both actively hunt those who are identified as being homosexual.

 

Do you truly believe that the situation is all that different from what Germany did during the Holocaust? Do you really think that if gay people were as physically easy to identify as someone of a certain racial or ethnic background that we wouldn't be actively rounded up, imprisoned and executed in countries such as those you have vacationed in? Do you think if gay people all had a certain-sounding last name that there would still be any of us alive in places such as Jamaica or Saudi Arabia.

 

Now that I think of it, the only reason the situation for homosexuals in countries such as those ISN'T as bad as it was for Jews in Germany during World War II is most likely because we aren't as easy to identify.

 

You have continued to divert the actual subject of this debate into other areas. Instead of discussing the morality of visiting places such as Saudi Arabia and Jamaica, you have consistently brought up this idea of some gay people "isolating" themselves from the world. You continue to compare Jamaica to America in your posts, stating that there are "some places" in America that you wouldn't walk down the street. I've already addressed the staggering differences between America, our government and the situation in Jamaica. I won't rehash the same points over and over again.

 

You still haven't addressed one of the first comparisons I made in my initial arguments -- Would you find it morally acceptable for a Jewish-American to vacation in Germany in the early 1930s, prior to the holocaust, knowing the social and legal climate that existed for Jewish citizens in that country?

 

If you're answer is "No," then I am perplexed as to how you can justify a gay American visiting Saudi Arabia or Jamaica knowing full well the legal and social climate that exists for homosexuals in those nations.

 

If you're answer is "Yes," then you might want to revisit the fundamental ideas of what makes something morally acceptable and morally objectionable.

 

You are absolutly right Gary, I dont know you. And you do not know me. You do not know my morals, my values or my beliefs. You question my allegence to the Gay Community as if it is the only community. You say you cant believe that "one of us" would visit that place....one of us? Until you see yourself as equal, no one else will either. I applaud your activism. You are in a great place to do it. But to bash "one of your own" for going on a cruise with an itinerary that stops in a port in a country with horrible human rights record is not activism. I have no need to exchange credentials on our list of gay activism. I didnt start waving the flag of an activist telling others how bad or un-gay friendly they are. I took a cruise from the port that is closest to where I live. It was the only 7 day itenerary there. I dont choose cruise itneraries that I allow me to vacation and shield myself from others who commit atrocities. It was what they had so I went on that cruise. For the record, I did not vacation in Saudi Arabia. I was sent there while I was a member of the armed forces. Back when even members of the millitary could go to jail for being gay. only they called it false enlistment. Proof read my posts all you want. I did not go to college. I am not a journalist. I am a blue collor government worker. You my think my logic flawed, but there is more than one way to get to the same place. I work just as hard for his money as you do. You brought up Germany and the jews, which most reasonable people can conclude refers to the holocaust. You may have not mentioned it, but neither does Rush limbough and we all know what he means. You say you mention jamaica's human rights record whenever you can, to friends gay and straight. And you have done it on this board. But as you say it was when the topic was brought up. To bash others for stopping there so harshly you would think that you would bring it up in the regualar threads or perhaps the Hill, since your right there. I am a person who happens to be Gay. Im just like everyone else. I go to work, I have a home, dogs ect..ect..I dont act any differently when I am on a ship or at home. And because my partner and I didnt make out on the beach because we know they are not gay friendly doesnt mean we condone their human rights record. When people come to my house, and they are smokers, they respect me and smoke outside. Now before you have an anuerism thinking i'm now comparing smoking to killing gay people, dont. That is not my point. My whole argument is that just because someone does not like me or the person I love, does not mean I am going to let them stop me from from living my life. Boycotts do not work. Jsut ask disney when they had the courage to stand up to the threats of the religous right who tried to boycott them for having gay day. ANd on the filp side, I believe Coors is still doing great business. There is always another customer....but as you said, knowledge is power. Take a trip up the Hill and start educating if you are so horrified. Bashing me on this thread has done nothing to help thier plight. You contend that by choosing the cruise I did equals to actively condoning the jamaican governments actions. Is is that rational I use to contend that just because you donate money to the HRC does not mean you are helping the people there. Port fees are approx $20 pp. At least that is what they reimburse for missing the port. That is a tax that goes to the government. Our taxes here in America pay for and sponsor all sorts of anti-gay organizations. But because I pay taxes doesnt mean I support those policies. So instead of bashing me here, write a letter to the cruise lines and ask them to stop calling on that port. I get it completely. They do horrible things to gay people. But me not taking that cruise would not have stopped their life long way of thinking. I will make a trip to my local congresspersons office and ask that they try and do something about it. As you said, knowlesge is power.

[garykool81]

You are absolutly right Gary, I dont know you. And you do not know me. You do not know my morals, my values or my beliefs. You question my allegence to the Gay Community as if it is the only community. You say you cant believe that "one of us" would visit that place....one of us? Until you see yourself as equal, no one else will either. I applaud your activism. You are in a great place to do it. But to bash "one of your own" for going on a cruise with an itinerary that stops in a port in a country with horrible human rights record is not activism.

 

Merely for the record, I did not begin this thread or my posts on it by "bashing" or "flaming" you. On the contrary, I made my initial post with my thoughts and opinions, which you then took objection to in your initial post. I then responded in kind, but I might ask that you even re-read my response to your initial post. It was quite civil.

 

If I'll apologize for anything on this thread, it might be my passion for the topic. But, I think I've remained rather level-headed during this discussion and have avoided launching personal insults toward you on a personal level. Instead, I've simply debated your world view and ideology versus that of my own.

 

I dont choose cruise itneraries that I allow me to vacation and shield myself from others who commit atrocities.

 

And, that is the fundamental difference between you and I. While I certainly am not interested in "shielding myself" from those who commit atrocities, which I assume is a veiled attempt to suggest that such an ideology is self-centered, I am most interested in doing everything in my power to keep my cash from getting into the hands of those who would commit such atrocious human rights violations.

 

Just as I would not supply money to the government of Darfur, given the current situation there, I will not supply money; whether pennies or dollars; to a government that actively hunts gay citizens for imprisonment, torture and murder. Let's again make it known that the only reason gay genocide does not exist is because our community can more easily hide who we are. If we shared the same physical traits or ethnic names as other minorities persecuted through history, I can guarantee you that governments in many uncivilized countries would have subjected gay citizens to a treatment truly unimaginable.

 

You brought up Germany and the jews, which most reasonable people can conclude refers to the holocaust. You may have not mentioned it, but neither does Rush limbough and we all know what he means.

 

See above, and also see my previous lengthy post where I went into further detail.

 

 

You say you mention jamaica's human rights record whenever you can, to friends gay and straight. And you have done it on this board. But as you say it was when the topic was brought up. To bash others for stopping there so harshly you would think that you would bring it up in the regualar threads or perhaps the Hill, since your right there.

 

I bring up the issue of gay rights, Jamaica and other human rights issues in various venues -- CruiseCritic is not the only online forum that I participate in, and as I have previously stated, I gladly will discuss the topic in any venue, whether it be gay or straight.

 

As far as bringing something up on the Hill, that is directly what the donations to local, national and international human rights and GLBT organizations fund. These are organizations, particularly the international ones, that will pressure the global community and our own leaders in Washington to do the right thing where possible.

 

Unfortunately, this isn't a matter that can easily be solved by Washington. This is a foreign nation with a government that does not care about GLBT matters, and has specifically gone out of their way to make it clear that they will not bow to international pressure on the issue. The government in Jamaica claims that their anti-gay stance is all in good Christian faith.

 

Until the corrupt leaders of this country change and new ones are brought in to enlighten the populace, nothing will advance. And, I am certainly not traveling to Jamaica to attempt a coup :-)

 

Until then, they don't get my money.

 

 

Boycotts do not work.

 

I can list probably upwards of one hundred corporations and countries where boycotts HAVE worked. We can start with Kim Jong-il and Kadafi. When international pressure is applied properly, boycotts most certainly result in change.

 

As far as private citizens boycotting, the stance can absolutely have an effect so long as the group is large and committed enough to stand by their principles. The boycotts of organizations such as Disney and Coors did not work well -- you are correct. That said, these are also corporations with massive customer bases spanning the international community.

 

Jamaica is a nation financed through tourism -- largely through that of the cruise ship industry. Pressure from consumers has already resulted in cruise lines either entirely pulling Jamaica from their list of destinations or greatly reducing the stops there.

 

Take a trip up the Hill and start educating if you are so horrified. Bashing me on this thread has done nothing to help thier plight. You contend that by choosing the cruise I did equals to actively condoning the jamaican governments actions.

 

Again, that is what organizations that lobby the GLBT cause on a local, national and international level do each and every day on behalf of their millions of members.

 

Secondly, I never, nor will I ever, claim that your actions essentially amounted to a "nod of approval" towards Jamaica's treatment of the gay community. I simply contend that you were rather ambivalent on the matter. I also contended that you did, in fact, write the government of Jamaica a blank check with whatever money you spent as well as through your port fees.

 

Is is that rational I use to contend that just because you donate money to the HRC does not mean you are helping the people there.

 

HRC is an organization that focuses on political policies and law in the United States, not abroad. There are many global, human rights organizations that one can also support which place pressure on the international community to respond to the atrocities seen in Jamaica. I think I specifically stated that I support numerous causes -- not all of them have to be focused just in my locale.

 

Our taxes here in America pay for and sponsor all sorts of anti-gay organizations. But because I pay taxes doesnt mean I support those policies.

 

Again -- big difference between tax dollars supporting an anti-gay preacher, which makes me shudder too, and an actual anti-gay government that condones acts of violence towards our community.

 

 

I will make a trip to my local congresspersons office and ask that they try and do something about it. As you said, knowlesge is power.

 

Your local congressperson will likely not care too much about what happens to gay people in Jamaica, but they can certainly pass the word on to someone that will at the federal level and continue to pressure the United Nations to impose sanctions on a government with a terrible human rights record.

 

If you're looking for an organization to lobby the matter, the good place to start would be with groups such as Amnesty International.

[pmetiv]

Merely for the record, I did not begin this thread or my posts on it by "bashing" or "flaming" you. On the contrary, I made my initial post with my thoughts and opinions, which you then took objection to in your initial post. .

 

Gary,

 

You've made your point, now it's time to calm down, quiet down, and move on. Although we agree with your point about Jamaica's disregard for gay human rights, you've fallen into the trap that so many passionate people stumble into--you seem to believe that anyone who doesn't agree with you totally is somehow ignorant, evil, or both. You certainly won't convince anyone to join your cause with that kind of condescending attitude. And the whole feeding frenzy of other posters jumping on the bandwagon and battering the orignal poster is rather unseemly.

 

One of the things we've learned as out gay professionals is that we gays/lesbians are a very diverse group. And, make no mistake, there is NO orthodoxy on how gays should behave or think. Just as we don't want other people (straight or gay) telling us how we're supposed to live--or lecturing to us in a shrill manner--we should be very careful not to do that to them. That has nothing to do with political correctness; it's just common courtesy. You would be wise to do the same.

 

In the meantime, let's keep the discussion on the topic, rather than just spilling more vitriol.

 

Jim and Pierre

[garykool81]

Gary,

 

You've made your point, now it's time to calm down, quiet down, and move on. Although we agree with your point about Jamaica's disregard for gay human rights, you've fallen into the trap that so many passionate people stumble into--you seem to believe that anyone who doesn't agree with you totally is somehow ignorant, evil, or both.

 

I'll agree that it is time to move on and "settle down," but I also never stated that I felt anyone was ignorant, evil or both. You're putting words in my mouth.

 

Back to the main topic -- as many others have reiterated on this board over and over again -- Jamaica is not a wise destination for gay tourists. Period. :-)

[Cruisemstr28]

Me and my partner and our two best friends went to ocho rios jamaica two years ago and it was a mess. They immediatley suspected we was gay because they kept making little comments asking us why all of us men are together and where are the women and things like that and they were extremely rude to us. One woman in downtown ocho rios where the shopping area is ask me w hy i had on my louis vuitton backpack she told me it was a sissy bag and that i must be a sissy for wearing it. I dont think i will be visiting jamaica again.