Any questions about how casinos work

[RANTHEMAN]

Actually owl,you are being very judgemental.

Do you play golf? How can you jusify spending $50,$100,$200 and a Sat. or Sun. knocking a little white ball around when there are so many other choices?

How can you jusitify eating at a high end steakhouse when there are so many less expensive choices?

 

And I could go on and on!!!

Bottom line is yes there are problem gamblers and drinkers and drug users,but to many of us casino gambling IS a form of entertainment and it IS fun. We chose to spend SOME of our entertainment dollars in a casino,just as you chose to spend yours on other endeavors.

 

Hope you enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine!

 

Cheers:)

[owl61]

RANT, You make a fair point. I agree I am being judgmental. In my judgment a person who has fun by pursuing something he knows he can never ever attain is not a rational person even if he does not go to extremes. By definition, irrational conduct makes no sense.

 

I think there is a difference between the gambler and the other activities which you mention as examples. The golfer gets pleasure from playing the game, maybe trying to achieve a good score or just relishing the sport and its challenge. Never mind the camaraderie that generally goes along with it. The steak eater gets pleasure from eating the steak, much more pleasure than he would by choosing a less expensive hamburger. Both these people have no expectation that they will possibly receive something else (call it a kicker) that will supplant their experience or compound their pleasure. They do not need to gain anything extra, any kicker, for them to enjoy their pastimes.

 

On the other hand, it is in the nature of casino gambling that a player experiences a thrill from trying to win money. He seeks to obtain a kicker, but as any rational person knows, he will never ever succeed in obtaining it except on a very short term basis. Ultimately, he will always lose money and lose more the longer he indulges. The gambler constantly pursues something he should know he will never ever obtain, winnings. In other words, he is kidding himself by being thrilled. There is no basis for the thrill since he will never win. And he knows it.

 

Now if you believe that the gambler enjoys gaming equally when he loses as when he wins then I will concede he is similar to the golfer and steakeater. He needs no additional kicker to enjoy his pasttime. But if you show me a gambler who actually enjoys losing as much as winning I will show you an irrational, maybe even emotionally disturbed, person for, by definition, a person who gambles but doesn't care if he loses or wins is irrational. Why not just burn the money, or throw it overboard, or give it away. It's analagous to the fable about Sysiphus. How does one get a sense of achievement by pushing the rock of Sysiphus up the hill knowing he will never get to the top. How does one realistically experience a thrill by the possibility of winning when he knows he never will.

 

If you disagree with me, I guess we just have to leave it at that. I am not an ethical relativist. Some forms of human conduct are "better" than others -more ethical, more noble, or more geared to achieve the desired result, etc. As long as your pastime does me no harm, go ahead. As I have indicated cruise line gamblers underwrite the expense of my cabin.

 

p.s. Sorry to be so long winded. Just trying to make my point clearly..

[AndyTheK]

Owl: There are a few other things which your reasoning does not explore.

 

"Gambling because you will win money" is a Western viewpoint. In the Far East, the laws of chance play a much different role in human thinking and outlook. The belief that life itself is influenced by these laws is part of the cultural foundation. Let me give an example. Suppose when you travel to work, there are two possible routes, equal in length, scenery and traffic, to choose from. As a Westerner, you might choose on a simply random basis, in other words, a whim. The Asian might cast sticks (or dice) to see which route he is "fated' to take today. That's not our way of thinking, but who is to say which is the "better" method? Eastern civilization has survived as long, or longer, than Western.

 

My outlook on others who gamble: The first time I played in a casino was in 1964, when I was a scant 24 years old. I soon observed that there were people there betting more money on the turn of a card than I had ever held in my hands at one time. The next thought which popped into my consciousness was the realization that it was, frankly, none of my business where the money came from, or why the wagers were "so high". My own casino budget (and that of DW as well) is not the grocery money or the rent money. Does any one else need to know its source?

 

Why do it when we KNOW the outcome: Please consider this. We KNOW what the end of our days on Earth are leading to, although there are always those who deny their own mortality until it strikes them in the face. Should we then not bring children into the world, and should we just end it all now, since we know the final result?

 

The optimist says "The glass is half full."

The pessimist says "The glass is half empty."

The engineer says "The glass is twice as large as it needs to be."

 

Shalom, Andy.

[owl61]

Why do it when we KNOW the outcome: Please consider this. We KNOW what the end of our days on Earth are leading to, although there are always those who deny their own mortality until it strikes them in the face. Should we then not bring children into the world, and should we just end it all now, since we know the final result?

Shalom, Andy.

 

Shalom, Andy, and thanks for replying to me. With all due respect, the first portion of your reply may be an interesting insight into the Eastern mind, but it is irrelevant. I would only observe that simply because something is older does not mean it is more valid. Logically, a better case could probably be made for the converse. Also irrelevant is the anectdote regarding your initiation into casino gaming both with respect to 1) the origins of anyone's grubstake and 2) self-imposed budgets or limits. I wasn't talking about those things although we can if you want.

 

What is of interest to me is your attempt to justify your own (and others') gaming via some existential reference to our mortality. Are you really reduced to justifying casino gaming because in the long run we all are going to die anyway? Is that the best you can do to justify gaming when the player knows he will surely lose. Sorry, Andy, the fact that we know that we will ultimately pass on in no way justifies a wager on the pass line. One doesn't have to be deeply religious to hold life precious while we are alive. It is exactly how you lead your life here on earth that can give meaning to an otherwise meaningless world. Sorry to get so deeply philosophical, but you invited it.

 

Andy, your argument is patently absurd. While you surely do not sound like an addict, your reasoning in this case is typical of the tortured logic and ridiculous extremes employed by addicts of all kinds to justify their habits, whether it be smoking, drinking, drugs or gambling. But like I said, as long as you are not causing harm to me, feel free to engage if you are incapable of seeing the folly of it.

[grod19]

Gambling is the same as any form of entertainment. How does the golfer know that he is going to have a good round? or the steak eater know that he will get a good steak? We all take risks and the key is controling what those risks cost us. I have lost in a casino many times and walked out smiling and happy because I enjoyed my experience at the table and with the people playing with me. Most things in life are can be summed up by the "chase for temporary highs". Playing golf to hit a hole in one, eating a good steak to enjoy the flavor, etc. We relive these highs by telling stories and mentally reminding ourselves of these great moments. A gambler gets that high as the dice are in the air, as the cards are turned over or as the little ball starts to bounce towards its momentary home.

 

Bottom line, all things have an associated cost, it is up to the individual to determine if the reward (whether monetary, pride, etc) is worth the cost.

[RANTHEMAN]

howl..FYI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackjack

 

Rule variations and the "house advantage"

[RANTHEMAN]

Futhermore owl...you are certainly aware that despite the longterm probabilities,there can be significant shortterm deviations. Thus to assert that when one walks into a casino they know that they are going to lose is patently false.

 

I have had many many losing sessions but also many many winning sessions and I believe my long term results would mirror the probabilies noted in the wiki article.

 

Where you are willing to accept it or not some people actually enjoy gambling.So as you said we must agree to disagree.

 

Cheers,Rant:)

[sylteach]

I have only seen a few slot machines that have signs telling what the percentage of payout is. Where is the sign located on the machine?

[jetwet1]

Owl, I would like to thank you for the time and effort you put into your posts, the way you try and push your outlook on life on other people is so well worded, it really is a shame that you cannot channel your efforts into something else.

 

If you don't like gambling that's fine, but please, take your preaching elsewhere.

[owl61]

Owl, I would like to thank you for the time and effort you put into your posts, the way you try and push your outlook on life on other people is so well worded, it really is a shame that you cannot channel your efforts into something else.

If you don't like gambling that's fine, but please, take your preaching elsewhere.

I didnt think I was preaching or that it was prohibited to have an intelligent discussion about casino gaming. Sorry it rubbed you the wrong way. Since you are the purported expert on gaming who started this thread, how about answering my questions, though? Are you are capable of doing that? For ease of reference I reiterate them.

 

OP,

Are cruise ship casinos subject to any particular jurisdiction's regulations in general or specically regarding minimum payouts or publication of payout % for the machines?

 

Do ship casinos ever comp big bettors like shoreside casinos do? In what way? Who has the discretion?

 

Do cruise ship casinos 86 inebriated players or others who are obviously betting irrationally and wildly? What about players who are otherwise behaving foolishly/ suspiciously with their money (grossly excessive tipping etc or nonsensical play)? Are there established procedures to deal with these cases.

 

How often do people sue claiming they were improperly allowed to gamble while under the influence?

 

Can you disclose the normal relationship between the casino concessionaire and the cruise line? How are profits split?

[RANTHEMAN]

Man howl....What put the burr under your saddle relative to casino gambling?:eek:

[grod19]

I didnt think I was preaching or that it was prohibited to have an intelligent discussion about casino gaming. Sorry it rubbed you the wrong way. Since you are the purported expert on gaming who started this thread, how about answering my questions, though? Are you are capable of doing that? For ease of reference I reiterate them.

 

OP,

Are cruise ship casinos subject to any particular jurisdiction's regulations in general or specically regarding minimum payouts or publication of payout % for the machines?

 

Do ship casinos ever comp big bettors like shoreside casinos do? In what way? Who has the discretion?

 

Do cruise ship casinos 86 inebriated players or others who are obviously betting irrationally and wildly? What about players who are otherwise behaving foolishly/ suspiciously with their money (grossly excessive tipping etc or nonsensical play)? Are there established procedures to deal with these cases.

 

How often do people sue claiming they were improperly allowed to gamble while under the influence?

 

Can you disclose the normal relationship between the casino concessionaire and the cruise line? How are profits split?

 

To address your questions, I have no idea if they are regulated or not, but some machines do have the % posted and if posted they do have to pay out at that %.

 

Yes they will comp whales, however normally not as well as you will get at a land based casino. You need to get the attention of the pit boss and the casino manager.

 

Why would a casino 86 an irrational player?? They live for those. If they detect you are card counting or something like that then maybe but if you are just foolishly making bets then no they won't do anything. If you are overly drunk and making a scene I am sure they will ask you to leave. If you are drunk and just making stupid betting decisions then they will be happy to take your money.

 

Sue because they were allowed to gamble while intoxicated, what is this world coming too? Take some responsibility for your own actions.

 

No idea about profit splits.

[owl61]

Owl, I would like to thank you for the time and effort you put into your posts, the way you try and push your outlook on life on other people is so well worded, it really is a shame that you cannot channel your efforts into something else.

If you don't like gambling that's fine, but please, take your preaching elsewhere.

 

 

Since you are the purported expert on gaming who started this thread, how about answering my questions, though? Are you are capable of doing that? For ease of reference I reiterate them.

 

OP,

Are cruise ship casinos subject to any particular jurisdiction's regulations in general or specically regarding minimum payouts or publication of payout % for the machines?

Do ship casinos ever comp big bettors like shoreside casinos do? In what way? Who has the discretion?

Do cruise ship casinos 86 inebriated players or others who are obviously betting irrationally and wildly? What about players who are otherwise behaving foolishly/ suspiciously with their money (grossly excessive tipping etc or nonsensical play)? Are there established procedures to deal with these cases.

How often do people sue claiming they were improperly allowed to gamble while under the influence?

Can you disclose the normal relationship between the casino concessionaire and the cruise line? How are profits split?

Can someone who knows the answer to these questions, please reply. Apparently the expert OP doesn´t know or doesn´t want to post answers.

[RANTHEMAN]

howl Why would a rational,semi-intelligent,sophisticated dude like you care what the answers are?

You are to smart to ever enter a casino on land or water because you know that you can not ever win.

 

Oh well,maybe you are a lawyer thinking of a class action suit.:eek:

[cabincop]

I was on the Gem in Oct and have been on 36 cruises but let me get back to the Gem one guy was drunk obnoxious and played horrible he stayed I tried to help him on bj but he said he liked to play the way he was and said he was going to piss off other players I left the table. I played bj and craps and play in tournies. They comp on NCL for big spenders get a card can get room discounts or even free rooms if play is good. I know international water rules mean they are not governed by any country

[jetwet1]

Ok, let me take a shot at answering these questions for you.

 

No they are not aligned with any jurisdiction, however if you ask to see the house rules most casinos on the ships will provide you with a copy.

 

For an example, I had a question about something many years ago on Carnival, I asked about it, the casino manager provided me with a set of their rules and procedures and what the dealer said was correct to their rules.

 

The machines are a different thing, some are owned by the cruise line, some are owned by the manufacture on a shared profit setup.

 

All machines are serviced by the manufacture at some point.

 

I have never seen a payback % posted on board a ship, however a quick look at a video poker pay table is enough for me to decide whether or not I will play.

 

Yes players are comped, I have been comped cruises in the past, my father in law has been comped cruises, it's down to the casino marketing department for each line. At times I have just had the cruise part comped, at others I have had everything comped, it depends on the level of play, the same as any land based casino.

 

Yes I have seen people 86'd from casinos on board.

 

This was done for behavior issues, not betting patterns. No casino will ask a player to leave based on betting patterns unless they believe the player is say, counting down the deck. In which case yes there will be a procedure for doing so.

 

I have never heard of a ship board casino being sued for this, and frankly, with the vast majority of people being on board drawing money from their sail and sign card which has a limit I really don't see a position where a person could, but I guess at some point someone will.

 

Do you mean a casino host ?

 

If so, well, in the normal way a host get's a percentage of the players theoretical loss, that is the amount a player should loss playing a certain game over a certain amount of time. It does not matter if the player win's or loses, they will still generate a theoretical based on time and bet.

 

The theoretical is what every casino bases it's comps off of as well.

[cowboy girl]

RANT, You make a fair point. I agree I am being judgmental. In my judgment a person who has fun by pursuing something he knows he can never ever attain is not a rational person even if he does not go to extremes. By definition, irrational conduct makes no sense.

 

I think there is a difference between the gambler and the other activities which you mention as examples. The golfer gets pleasure from playing the game, maybe trying to achieve a good score or just relishing the sport and its challenge. Never mind the camaraderie that generally goes along with it. The steak eater gets pleasure from eating the steak, much more pleasure than he would by choosing a less expensive hamburger. Both these people have no expectation that they will possibly receive something else (call it a kicker) that will supplant their experience or compound their pleasure. They do not need to gain anything extra, any kicker, for them to enjoy their pastimes.

 

On the other hand, it is in the nature of casino gambling that a player experiences a thrill from trying to win money. He seeks to obtain a kicker, but as any rational person knows, he will never ever succeed in obtaining it except on a very short term basis. Ultimately, he will always lose money and lose more the longer he indulges. The gambler constantly pursues something he should know he will never ever obtain, winnings. In other words, he is kidding himself by being thrilled. There is no basis for the thrill since he will never win. And he knows it.

 

Now if you believe that the gambler enjoys gaming equally when he loses as when he wins then I will concede he is similar to the golfer and steakeater. He needs no additional kicker to enjoy his pasttime. But if you show me a gambler who actually enjoys losing as much as winning I will show you an irrational, maybe even emotionally disturbed, person for, by definition, a person who gambles but doesn't care if he loses or wins is irrational. Why not just burn the money, or throw it overboard, or give it away. It's analagous to the fable about Sysiphus. How does one get a sense of achievement by pushing the rock of Sysiphus up the hill knowing he will never get to the top. How does one realistically experience a thrill by the possibility of winning when he knows he never will.

 

If you disagree with me, I guess we just have to leave it at that. I am not an ethical relativist. Some forms of human conduct are "better" than others -more ethical, more noble, or more geared to achieve the desired result, etc. As long as your pastime does me no harm, go ahead. As I have indicated cruise line gamblers underwrite the expense of my cabin.

 

p.s. Sorry to be so long winded. Just trying to make my point clearly..

 

Owl,

 

I am not someone who gambles on a regular basis, but I do enjoy it occasionally and love to spend a week in Vegas every now and then. I take $50 with me and when it's gone, I stop. My favorite game is craps and usually, because I place small bets, it will last me for a few hours. Sometimes I'm "crapped out" in an hour, but most times I can play for two, three, sometimes four or five hours. And often I break even or win. During this time I am drinking for free or very cheap (at most casinos). So, I spend $50, including most of my drinks, for a few hours of fun. You'd spend the same amount going to dinner or a sporting event. It's an evening's worth of entertainment. And, yes, it's disappointing when I lose. But it's also disappointing when my football team loses, or I have a bad bowling game, or a bad meal. So your comparison to golf and steak just doesn't hold up here unless you relish the thought of shooting 76 on a nine hole course. That's my best golfing score (I think, I don't actually keep score sometimes) but I had lots of fun doing it.

 

By the way, I am not "emotionally disturbed" and am a bit offended that you seem to imply your choice of recreational activities to be more ethical and noble. Tolerance is a word you may want to add to your vocabulary.

[jetwet1]

As I have indicated cruise line gamblers underwrite the expense of my cabin.

 

 

I forgot to mention, i'm $40k up on Carnival, a couple of thousand up on Princess and $480 on HAL, so I may be making your cruise a little more expensive, sorry :p