Daily Mass

[lysolqn]

In reply to the above poster, the difference with Catholics is that there NEEDS to be a priest to have a Mass. No one has yet to state that this same requirement exists in other faiths. I, and others, understand there are prayer requirements, but does this require the presence of a minister or other clergy? If that is the case, then please let us know. Otherwise, the cries of those seeking equal treatment among all faiths on a cruiseship hold no water since all faiths do NOT have the same requirements for observation.

 

I am not one of those "seeking equal treatment" and understand completely the disappointment of those who sail with Celebrity, in whole or in part, because of the presence of Catholic clergy on X ships. I was simply responding to specific statements in hancock's post which are, like it or not, incorrect. This is not a matter of one faith's obligations being more important than and therefore trumping another's. This is a matter of Celebrity making a business decision to eliminate an accommodation that served only a very specific segment of its passengers rather than being inclusive. JMHO.

[hancock]

With the exception of food, almost nothing on the ship is totally inclusive. Not every one can use, or choose to use, the bars, pools, hot tubs, spa, gym, library, bingo, enrichment series, games, movies, nightly entertainment, meetings for Friends of Bill and Dorothy, internet etc. I have been to masses on board which non-Catholics chose to attend. No one is barred from joining us.

[lysolqn]

With the exception of food, almost nothing on the ship is totally inclusive. Not every one can use, or choose to use, the bars, pools, hot tubs, spa, gym, library, bingo, enrichment series, games, movies, nightly entertainment, meetings for Friends of Bill and Dorothy, internet etc. I have been to masses on board which non-Catholics chose to attend. No one is barred from joining us.

 

By definition, Catholic mass is for Catholics; that no one is barred from attending and some passengers who aren't Catholic choose to attend doesn't change that very basic fact. The accommodation by a cruise line to provide a priest to conduct(?) mass is exclusionary in its very meaning, clearly not in a bad way but exclusionary nonetheless.

 

Onboard activities like spas, gyms, entertainment, enrichment, bingo, internet, hot tubs, etc. are plentiful, varied, aimed at a wide variety of passengers and available to all. Surely you would agree that the same cannot be said about denominationally specific religious services. That some passengers choose not to play bingo, use the internet or workout in the gym is a matter of personal choice and does not make those activities any less inclusive.

[madelinerose]

Nation------ Percent ----Number of baptized Catholics

Brazil -------86.50% ----134,818,000

Mexico ------95.30 ------86,305,000

USA--------- 26.00 ------61,000,000

Philippines--- 83.60 ------58,735,000

Italy --------97.20%----- 55,599,000

France ------82.10 ------47,773,000

Spain -------94.20 ------36,956,000

Poland ------95.40 ------36,835,000

Colombia ----91.90 ------32,260,000

Argentina ---90.70 ------31,546,000

Germany ----34.80 ------28,403,000

 

 

Not necessarily practicing. ;)

[lifevicarious]

I'm not against Catholic Priests being on board, I doubt that many are. I am against Celebrity giving away a room to a priest of a specific denomination on every ship which cuts into revenue and therefore increases costs for everyone. Especially given the statistics provided on this board stating that only 26% of Americans are baptized Catholics (the % of practicing I'm guessing is much lower).

 

I have never been to a Catholic service (aside from weddings) but do you make donations on the ship? Why can't a donation plate be passed (or whatever it is that Catholics do) and those donations be used to pay for the cabin of the priest? That would make the most sense to me and I would think Celebrity would be for it. There obviously is a cost to having a priest on board, why should those utilizing the service not be the ones to pay for it?

[usha]

There obviously is a cost to having a priest on board, why should those utilizing the service not be the ones to pay for it?

If we're to follow that rationale, then Celebrity should start charging piecemeal for things like stage shows (you know, those Celebrity singers & dancers not only get free cabin space, but they also get paid). Not everyone wants to see those shows; let those who want them pay for them.

Also, not everybody eats that much; Celebrity could really level the playing field by charging the gourmands for all that overeating they do onboard. Why should everybody pay for the ones who just can't stop eating?

The gyms take up a whole lotta room that could be used for all sorts of other things, and it's staffed with people who are living onboard for free & getting paid to boot! Why doesn't Celebrity just start charging the people who want to go work out? Why should everyone share that expense?

and don't even get me started on Perry Grant...:rolleyes:

[lysolqn]

If we're to follow that rationale, then Celebrity should start charging piecemeal for things like stage shows (you know, those Celebrity singers & dancers not only get free cabin space, but they also get paid). Not everyone wants to see those shows; let those who want them pay for them.

Also, not everybody eats that much; Celebrity could really level the playing field by charging the gourmands for all that overeating they do onboard. Why should everybody pay for the ones who just can't stop eating?

The gyms take up a whole lotta room that could be used for all sorts of other things, and it's staffed with people who are living onboard for free & getting paid to boot! Why doesn't Celebrity just start charging the people who want to go work out? Why should everyone share that expense?

and don't even get me started on Perry Grant...:rolleyes:

 

Precisely why onboard activities that appeal to the widest segment of passengers for the most part remain free of charge while those whose appeal is more narrow are increasingly becoming pay-to-play profit centers! But that's a entirely different thread.

[Johnthed0g]

Me....no religion at all on any of 'em.

[lifevicarious]

If we're to follow that rationale, then Celebrity should start charging piecemeal for things like stage shows (you know, those Celebrity singers & dancers not only get free cabin space, but they also get paid). Not everyone wants to see those shows; let those who want them pay for them.

 

Also, not everybody eats that much; Celebrity could really level the playing field by charging the gourmands for all that overeating they do onboard. Why should everybody pay for the ones who just can't stop eating?

 

The gyms take up a whole lotta room that could be used for all sorts of other things, and it's staffed with people who are living onboard for free & getting paid to boot! Why doesn't Celebrity just start charging the people who want to go work out? Why should everyone share that expense?

 

and don't even get me started on Perry Grant...:rolleyes:

 

There is certainly a difference between those things and having a Catholic priest on board. Everyone at least knows the above items are included and paid for and they all at least offer additional revenue streams for the cruise as they sell drinks at the shows and at meals, they sell personal training, classes and spa services in the gym. That extra revenue subsidizes those spaces and activities.

 

Tithing is certainly part of Catholicism so asking Catholics to tithe while on board certainly shouldn't be a big deal. The only reason you have a priest at your local church is because of tithing, why should it be any different on a cruise?

 

Many people, myself included, don't like the idea of subsidizing a persons fare when the sole purpose of them being there is to propogate a belief in something whose only proof of existence is an ancient book.

 

Celebrity isn't stupid. If they felt that the addition of a Catholic Priest on every cruise earned more revenue then it ate up, they would continue it. As of January 8th, that is no longer the case.

[usha]

Let's say a priest has an inside cabin on a week-long cruise that's selling last-minute for $499pp, and for argument's sake, let's say he has the cabin all to himself! So, figuring the single supplement, that's $998 that the cruise line is out for having a priest onboard to celebrate daily masses, lead interdenomination services and religious services for the crew.

If the ship has 2000 paying passengers on that week, it will average about fifty cents per passenger for that priest to be there. Can you honestly tell me you have a problem with that?

[Waterlily777]

This should be a little easier to read::o

Top 10 Nations with Most Catholics

Nation------ Percent ----Number of baptizedCatholics

Brazil -------86.50% ----134,818,000

Mexico ------95.30 ------86,305,000

USA--------- 26.00 ------61,000,000

Philippines--- 83.60 ------58,735,000

Italy --------97.20%----- 55,599,000

France ------82.10 ------47,773,000

Spain -------94.20 ------36,956,000

Poland ------95.40 ------36,835,000

Colombia ----91.90 ------32,260,000

Argentina ---90.70 ------31,546,000

Germany ----34.80 ------28,403,000

 

 

For the sake of comparison, here are the published statistics from the CIA World Factbook for the most recent available census for each country, in the order listed above:

 

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html

 

Brazil:

 

Roman Catholic (nominal) 73.6%

Protestant 15.4%

Spiritualist 1.3%

Bantu/voodoo 0.3%

Other 1.8%

Unspecified 0.2%

None 7.4% (2000 census)

 

Mexico:

 

Roman Catholic 76.5%

Protestant 6.3% (Pentecostal 1.4%, Jehovah's Witnesses 1.1%, other 3.8%)

Other 0.3%

Unspecified 13.8%

None 3.1% (2000 census)

 

USA

 

Protestant 51.3%

Roman Catholic 23.9%

Mormon 1.7%

Other Christian 1.6%

Jewish 1.7%

Buddhist 0.7%

Muslim 0.6%

Other or unspecified 2.5%

Unaffiliated 12.1%

None 4% (2007 census)

 

Phillippines:

 

Roman Catholic 80.9%

Muslim 5%

Evangelical 2.8%

Iglesia ni Kristo 2.3%

Aglipayan 2%,

Other Christian 4.5%

Other 1.8%

Unspecified 0.6%

None 0.1% (2000 census)

 

Italy:

 

Roman Catholic 90% (approximately; about one-third practicing)

Other 10% (includes mature Protestant and Jewish communities and a growing Muslim immigrant community)

 

France:

 

Roman Catholic 83%-88%

Protestant 2%

Jewish 1%

Muslim 5%-10%

Unaffiliated 4%

 

Spain:

 

Roman Catholic 94%

Other 6 %

 

Poland:

 

Roman Catholic 89.8% (about 75% practicing)

Eastern Orthodox 1.3%

Protestant 0.3%

Other 0.3%

Unspecified 8.3% (2002 census)

 

Columbia:

 

Roman Catholic 90%

Other 10%

 

Argentina:

 

Nominally Roman Catholic 92% (less than 20% practicing)

Protestant 2%

Jewish 2%

Other 4%

 

Germany:

 

Protestant 34%

Roman Catholic 34%

Muslim 3.7%

Unaffiliated or other 28.3%

 

And a few other countries (frequently represented among cruisers or crew on Celebrity ships) ...

 

Australia:

 

Roman Catholic 25.8%

Anglican 18.7%

Uniting Church 5.7%

Presbyterian and Reformed 3%

Eastern Orthodox 2.7%

Other Christian 7.9%

Buddhist 2.1%

Muslim 1.7%

Other 2.4%

Unspecified 11.3%

None 18.7% (2006 Census)

 

Canada:

 

Roman Catholic 42.6% (c. 14,270,000)

Protestant 23.3% (including United Church 9.5%, Anglican 6.8%, Baptist 2.4%, Lutheran 2%)

Other Christian 4.4%

Muslim 1.9%

Other and unspecified 11.8%

None 16% (2001 census)

 

China:

 

Daoist (Taoist)

Buddhist

Christian 3%-4%

Muslim 1%-2%

note: officially atheist (2002 est.)

 

Croatia:

 

Roman Catholic 87.8%

Orthodox 4.4%

Other Christian 0.4%

Muslim 1.3%

Other and unspecified 0.9%

None 5.2% (2001 census)

 

India:

 

Hindu 80.5%

Muslim 13.4%

Christian 2.3%

Sikh 1.9%

Other 1.8%

Unspecified 0.1% (2001 census)

 

Japan:

 

Shintoism 83.9%

Buddhism 71.4%

Christianity 2%

Other 7.8%

 

Note: total adherents exceeds 100% because many people belong to both Shintoism and Buddhism (2005)

 

Turkey:

 

Muslim 99.8% (mostly Sunni)

Other 0.2% (mostly Christians and Jews)

 

United Kingdom:

 

Christian (Anglican, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist) 71.6%

Muslim 2.7%

Hindu 1%

Other 1.6%

Unspecified or none 23.1% (2001 census)

 

Note: the UK census apparently does not break the "Christian" group into denominations.

[lifevicarious]

Let's say a priest has an inside cabin on a week-long cruise that's selling last-minute for $499pp, and for argument's sake, let's say he has the cabin all to himself! So, figuring the single supplement, that's $998 that the cruise line is out for having a priest onboard to celebrate daily masses, lead interdenomination services and religious services for the crew.

If the ship has 2000 paying passengers on that week, it will average about fifty cents per passenger for that priest to be there. Can you honestly tell me you have a problem with that?

 

I don't have a problem with $.50. I do have a problem with $468,000 though.

 

Celebrity has 9 ships right now (Eclipse is not counted). And let's assume all ships have 52 cruises a year so Celebrity alone has 468 cruises a year. And let's use your number of $1000 per cruise. That brings us to $468,000 per year in cost. This doesn't include the other 29 ships that RCL has that may or may not currently have Catholic priests aboard.

 

So again, I don't have a problem with $.50 but I do have a problem with a nearly half million dollar subsidy from Celebrity alone for a representative of an organization that 3/4ths of Americans do not participate in.

[sailsalot]

So if the other 3/4 of Americans did participate (uh-oh, you're excluding other nationalities. It's a big no-no to be exclusionary here), then having a Catholic priest would be okay? I'd venture to say 3/4 of Americans don't take dance lessons. And yet, Celebrity PAYS dance instructors (and provides them a cabin) to give dance lessons on board their cruises, for FREE! So the numbers-crunching doesn't add up. What if I want to take accordion lessons? Just b/c Celebrity doesn't provide that for free (or at all!), do I get to complain that it provides dance lessons, or provides cabins to dance instructors? There really is no logic to that argument.

 

How about the percentage of the cruise passenger/crew? There's about 200-300 passengers at Sunday Mass (that's 10%), and I've heard the crew Mass is very well attended. At what number would it be acceptable to have a Catholic priest? I think to some, the answer would be NEVER!

[usha]

How many Celebrity ships do you suppose sail absolutely sold-out?

Almost every sailing has some empty cabins that don't get sold.

It's a total loss of revenue if nobody's in those cabins.

At least a priest might buy some lattes or suntan lotion or internet minutes.

[lifevicarious]

So if the other 3/4 of Americans did participate (oh, but you're now excluding other nationalities on board. It's a big no-no to be exclusionary here.), then having a Catholic priest would be okay?

 

No. I don't agree with it under any circumstance, but that's just my personal opinion.

 

If the majority of Americans were PRACTICING Catholics I could certainly at least understand it. But given the fact that the majority of Americans aren't Catholic, let alone practicing Catholics, and given that the majority of Celebrity cruisers are Americans, I most certainly don't agree with a half million dollar subsidy.

 

And according to this study, only a third of U.S. adult Catholics state they attend mass every week. So even if we assumed the entier 26% of Catholics in the US are adult and practicing, only about 9% of those state they attend every week.

http://cara.georgetown.edu/AttendPR.pdf

[lifevicarious]

How many Celebrity ships do you suppose sail absolutely sold-out?

Almost every sailing has some empty cabins that don't get sold.

It's a total loss of revenue if nobody's in those cabins.

At least a priest might buy some lattes or suntan lotion or internet minutes.

 

I don't know what % are sold out, but I would like to.

 

I'd also love to offer those cabins to random contest winners, those unable to afford a cruise, recent college graduates, elite members, a lucky cabbie who just dropped off a passenger, crew family, and certainly representatives of different faiths. Why do Catholics seem to be the only one eligible for this deal?

 

And let the record show I am not a member of any of the groups I mentioned above.

[lysolqn]

So if the other 3/4 of Americans did participate (oh, but you're now excluding other nationalities on board. It's a big no-no to be exclusionary here.), then having a Catholic priest would be okay?

 

What Celebrity appears to be saying is they can no longer accommodate one faith without accommodating all - not a particularly unreasonable position if one is able to set aside emotion and personal need. Playing devil's advocate here, would you be happy to find a Lutheran minister or Muslim Imam but no Catholic priest on your next X cruise? Were that the case, pehaps your tongue-in-cheek "it's a big no-no to be exclusionary here" might no longer be so tongue-in-cheek.

[lysolqn]

...I'd venture to say 3/4 of Americans don't take dance lessons. And yet, Celebrity PAYS dance instructors (and provides them a cabin) to give dance lessons on board their cruises, for FREE!

 

Actually Celebrity stopped providing dance instructors about two years ago - a cost-cutting measure. Since then the onboard Celebrity dancers have assumed that responsibility. They've also cut dance hosts, watercolorists, the number of activities staff and most recently, bridge instructors.

 

What if I want to take accordion lessons? Just b/c Celebrity doesn't provide that for free (or at all!), do I get to complain that it provides dance lessons, or provides cabins to dance instructors?

 

You would certainly be free to voice your disapproval on the guest comment card. Beyond that, if accordion lessons were a make or break deal for you, you would likely want to find an alternative cruise line or vacation destination that meets your specific needs.

 

How about the percentage of the cruise passenger/crew? There's about 200-300 passengers at Sunday Mass (that's 10%), and I've heard the crew Mass is very well attended. At what number would it be acceptable to have a Catholic priest?

 

If one is inclined toward clergy on cruise ships, then at the very same number it would be acceptable to have clergy of any other faith on board.

[Shirley and Les]

I guess Celebrity doesn't want to be rated as a "Mass" market cruise line. :eek: I'm sorry but I couldn't resist it.

[keela1eva2]

A collection is taken at the Sunday Mass and this goes to the AOTS. I don't want to get bowed down with arguments re Priest or no Priest we could argue this until the cows come home and not agree.

I am deeply saddened that we will no longer have a Priest on board and other than make my feelings known to X there is little else I can do about it.

 

Sue

[usha]

Sue, I think you're right about letting Celebrtity know how you feel.

In the meantime, if Celebrity insists on making itself an irresponsible cruise choice for Catholics, there's always Holland America, who still has a priest on every sailing (even if HAL's smoking policy does stink:p)

[lifevicarious]

A collection is taken at the Sunday Mass and this goes to the AOTS. I don't want to get bowed down with arguments re Priest or no Priest we could argue this until the cows come home and not agree.

I am deeply saddened that we will no longer have a Priest on board and other than make my feelings known to X there is little else I can do about it.

 

Sue

 

What is AOTS? A google search returns "Attack of the Show" and "The Association for Overseas Technical Scholarship". I assume neither of these are what you are talking about.

[usha]

AOTS is Apostleship of the Sea, the Catholic organization of priests who volunteer for ministry at sea.

[FinelyCruising]

For the sake of comparison, here are the published statistics from the CIA World Factbook for the most recent available census for each country, in the order listed above:

 

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html

 

Brazil:

 

Roman Catholic (nominal) 73.6%

Protestant 15.4%

Spiritualist 1.3%

Bantu/voodoo 0.3%

Other 1.8%

Unspecified 0.2%

None 7.4% (2000 census)

 

Mexico:

 

Roman Catholic 76.5%

Protestant 6.3% (Pentecostal 1.4%, Jehovah's Witnesses 1.1%, other 3.8%)

Other 0.3%

Unspecified 13.8%

None 3.1% (2000 census)

 

USA

 

Protestant 51.3%

Roman Catholic 23.9%

Mormon 1.7%

Other Christian 1.6%

Jewish 1.7%

Buddhist 0.7%

Muslim 0.6%

Other or unspecified 2.5%

Unaffiliated 12.1%

None 4% (2007 census)

 

Phillippines:

 

Roman Catholic 80.9%

Muslim 5%

Evangelical 2.8%

Iglesia ni Kristo 2.3%

Aglipayan 2%,

Other Christian 4.5%

Other 1.8%

Unspecified 0.6%

None 0.1% (2000 census)

 

Italy:

 

Roman Catholic 90% (approximately; about one-third practicing)

Other 10% (includes mature Protestant and Jewish communities and a growing Muslim immigrant community)

 

France:

 

Roman Catholic 83%-88%

Protestant 2%

Jewish 1%

Muslim 5%-10%

Unaffiliated 4%

 

Spain:

 

Roman Catholic 94%

Other 6 %

 

Poland:

 

Roman Catholic 89.8% (about 75% practicing)

Eastern Orthodox 1.3%

Protestant 0.3%

Other 0.3%

Unspecified 8.3% (2002 census)

 

Columbia:

 

Roman Catholic 90%

Other 10%

 

Argentina:

 

Nominally Roman Catholic 92% (less than 20% practicing)

Protestant 2%

Jewish 2%

Other 4%

 

Germany:

 

Protestant 34%

Roman Catholic 34%

Muslim 3.7%

Unaffiliated or other 28.3%

 

And a few other countries (frequently represented among cruisers or crew on Celebrity ships) ...

 

Australia:

 

Roman Catholic 25.8%

Anglican 18.7%

Uniting Church 5.7%

Presbyterian and Reformed 3%

Eastern Orthodox 2.7%

Other Christian 7.9%

Buddhist 2.1%

Muslim 1.7%

Other 2.4%

Unspecified 11.3%

None 18.7% (2006 Census)

 

Canada:

 

Roman Catholic 42.6% (c. 14,270,000)

Protestant 23.3% (including United Church 9.5%, Anglican 6.8%, Baptist 2.4%, Lutheran 2%)

Other Christian 4.4%

Muslim 1.9%

Other and unspecified 11.8%

None 16% (2001 census)

 

China:

 

Daoist (Taoist)

Buddhist

Christian 3%-4%

Muslim 1%-2%

note: officially atheist (2002 est.)

 

Croatia:

 

Roman Catholic 87.8%

Orthodox 4.4%

Other Christian 0.4%

Muslim 1.3%

Other and unspecified 0.9%

None 5.2% (2001 census)

 

India:

 

Hindu 80.5%

Muslim 13.4%

Christian 2.3%

Sikh 1.9%

Other 1.8%

Unspecified 0.1% (2001 census)

 

Japan:

 

Shintoism 83.9%

Buddhism 71.4%

Christianity 2%

Other 7.8%

 

Note: total adherents exceeds 100% because many people belong to both Shintoism and Buddhism (2005)

 

Turkey:

 

Muslim 99.8% (mostly Sunni)

Other 0.2% (mostly Christians and Jews)

 

United Kingdom:

 

Christian (Anglican, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist) 71.6%

Muslim 2.7%

Hindu 1%

Other 1.6%

Unspecified or none 23.1% (2001 census)

 

Note: the UK census apparently does not break the "Christian" group into denominations.

 

My comments were related to the make up of the make-up of the crew since argument(s) included hey what about the crew, not they get nothing too. I like that this list includes Turkey since many of the staff are from this country and it augments the list that I had started which is a combination of many nations we see represented and whose religions are not predominatly Roman Catholic.

 

Looking at the overall list of nations above, the majority of countries represented are more alike the customer base and less like the crew base. The poster(s) who suggested that the crew must be predominately Roman Catholic I feel made those comment without really taking a moment to think about the diversity of the crew and the dis-similarity of the religions of the crew.

 

The crew has less representation for spiritual leadership than the guests have had as far as I can tell with the US Statistics most telling.

[usha]

The crew has less representation for spiritual leadership than the guests have had as far as I can tell with the US Statistics most telling.

What do you think the US Statistics are telling you?