twotravellersLondon

2 hours ago, Truro001 said:

What a Saga! I notice that these threads concerning Saga cruises are being followed by literally thousands of potential / current Saga cruisers. It is no wonder Saga can't sell any of the recently advertised cruises on the Spirit of Adventure's Black Sea cruise in May. How can the management get it so wrong? I would at least hope  they have someone in their Head Office monitoring these threads in order to keep up to date with what their customers are saying. After all, Saga only have 2 ships. 

Everyone has their own priorities, is entitled to their own view and to make their own choices on whether or not to cruise with any particular cruise line. If we had serious concerns about any particular company... after having checked them out... we would give them a miss, and be content to be happy cruisers on another line. 

We would be very surprised if SAGA management we unaware of comments on review sites and social media in general and we're sure that these will be looked at in the wider context of commercial, legal and industry requirements. 

For instance, there are only 14 people currently following this thread. At least two of those seem to have never booked a SAGA cruise. At least one other has been critical of SAGA in virtually every post since the cruise line became all balcony. The total viewing figures don't represent the number of individuals as many people are viewing the site multiple times... as is evident from the number of comments they have made. In addition, some people who have viewed the site may have no interest in cruising with SAGA in the first place.

In the wider context, the Saga share price has increased by 7% while this thread has been running ... during the same time-span Carnival's share-price has stayed virtually the same. In the last few days, hundreds of people have booked on same SAGA's newly released 2023 cruise as we've just done. We're sure that SAGA has probably had 1000s of sales in the last week or so. Very clearly, different people have very different views!

We very greatly sympathise with those folks whose hols have been disrupted and feel frustrated. We also sympathise with folk who, despite being fully vaccinated have caught covid... sometimes again and again.

We especially empathise with the crew on SAGA ships who are working so hard to do whatever they can to provide the best possible service despite staff being reduced due to covid and despite the risks of contracting covid again and again and again. 

We've sailed with lots of different cruise-lines and travelled with lots of different companies over the years. All have their pros and cons. We've spent weeks and weeks investigating and researching the cruise-lines that we've used and the alternatives... including reading and weighing up the comments and advice on these boards. The result... we've decided to give two of the cruise lines that we've used in the recent past a miss... and we now have booked total about 100 days with SAGA.

8 minutes ago, stephenSJ said:

Meant to say that the captain STILL has to make appeals for people to wear masks. Unbelievable that people still sit around the ship without masks. 

That's really sad.

We really do feel for the crew and for many of the more vulnerable passengers on board... we know that many fully vaccinated people are catching covid and that many of those have caught covid more than once. We would always try to be careful, cautious and considerate to other people... and we would comply with the Captain's requests... if for no other reason except to allow others to have some greater peace of mind.

15 minutes ago, Denarius said:

I am on my first Saga cruise and whilst I cannot fault the rank and file staff communication from the officers and management is woefull. And the captain and officers are invisible. I have been onboard for a week and have yet to see one of them in the flesh. Looks ss though they are keeping out of the way of passengers lest they be told what they don’t want to hear!

In the past, we've always found that officers and senior staff have been about the ship, chatting and meeting cruisers. Could their absence at this point be an attempt to reduce contact and avoid covid?

Is so, it would be very reassuring... nobody wants the senior officers laid up.

1 hour ago, Harry Peterson said:

Perhaps Saga are being ultra-cautious to take account of their particular customer profile, age in particular, on the advice of their lawyers?

I think that's spot on Harry.

The litigation claims, especially in the US are now in the realms of billions. These are class actions and individual claims that the cruise lines didn't do enough to prevent covid on ships... everything from deaths to emotional stress is being allegeded.

Also remember that 25% of SAGA's market are still to be persuaded to cruise again and SAGA's cautious approach may well win them back. It's certainly worked with us!

10 minutes ago, stephenSJ said:

The dining room is being changed to tables for 2.

Because they have had so many requests for tables for 2.

38 minutes ago, Ardennais said:

I love Aurora, don’t get me wrong. But the photos I’ve seen of Saga convey a smarter product all round. So how could P&O charge those prices? 

I think that's the point.

Can P&O attract a viable customer base for a revamped, rebranded Aurora as an exploration ship? I really don't know.

The other alternative of providing the same type of relaxed laid-back cruise, as the Black Prince, the Ocean Majesty, the Discovery and similar ships once did, seems to be rapidly disappearing... in a welter of new environmental regulations and the demand for increasing efficiency.

1 hour ago, nosapphire said:

As a longtime Saga cruiser, I am convinced (without any facts to support it) that the air circulation system on the new ships spreads disease faster than the one on the old ships

I was under the impression that the Discovery was fitted with an enhanced state-of-the-art air conditioning system which provides 100% fresh air throughout the ship. But I do share your concern about the spread of infections.

11 hours ago, AuroraCruiser08 said:

what would work is if P&O marketed Aurora differently say as a different type of product that would really blow other competitors out the market on that size of ship while having the newer ships focusing on a separate market for example. 

Personally I think that would be a brilliant idea in many ways... vintage style cruising aimed at a more experienced, more travelled, mature demographic who want a more relaxed, cruise experience. 

Maybe even the chance to be able to explore a much wider range of ports at a more leisurely pace. An appropriate entertainment offering and food offerings that either up to the standard of a good gastro-pub or a decent restaurant. And... a chance to explore independently on shore... with onboard advice and assistance at arranging busses, taxies and the like. 

However, I do think that the cost pppd would be higher. SAGA have gone down this route and their prices this year are £230-£290ish pppd. Pre-covid Fred Olsen muted "600 passenger exploration ships" at a starting price of £300 pppd and other lines are often more expensive.

The question is... are there enough people around willing to pay those sorts of prices and blow other competitors out the market?

12 hours ago, silversurf said:

Just found out Saga have decided that you can only go ashore if you book one of their excursions.

I can't find this on SAGA's website. More info would be very helpful.

22 minutes ago, Windsurfboy said:

Firstly it's a myth that older cruisers are poor , 90% of worlds wealth is in the hands of the over 60s. However the wealthier over 60s may spend much more on a cruise than the young , they are the core passengers of Silversea,  Seabourn and Saga etc. The revenue on these lines per passenger is some of the highest in the industry. 

That, in my opinion, is spot on.

But those cruise lines have a very different business plan to he P&Os and even the Fred Olsen's of this world. SAGA has recognised that the "Golden" Pound is still important but it has designed out canny cruisers by going balcony only and all inclusive.

These lines do make some of the highest returns in the industry, as you say, but everyone on board pays the gratuities, buys into the drinks package, the speciality dining, the excursions and such like... because it's part of the basic price.

31 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

And yes, I agree about UK hotels, biggest rip off ever. I want one night in August near Wembley after a Coldplay concert, prices are averaging £500 to £700 a night in budget hotels.

My goodness.... you can stay in the RItz tonight for that!

2 hours ago, Bobblehat71 said:

IMHO P&O have something of an identity crises. They are trying to attract a younger demographic without actually offering anything for them. The only thing that has changed is the marketing . 

Many cruise lines, including P&O, see the future as cruisers who are really up for it because they will spend, spend and spend. Even before covid, Carnival made a loss on the sales of cruise tickets. It was only the extra on-board spend that pushed the company over the line into profitability.

Cruise lines want people who will go for the most costly drinks packages, lots of speciality dining, expensive excursions, full-on spa packages and who will shop 'till they drop. That  means that the cruise lines will make profits and be able to service the billions of debt that's built up over the past couple of years.

In the past when the name of the game was to build capacity and fill cabins, many cruise lines carried lots of passengers at less than cost price and often those passengers were very careful with their onboard spend and travelled as economically as possible.

We detect that, things are now rapidly changing and that cruise prices are noticeably higher than they were in 2019. In some cases, the offer has been diminished and the up-selling has increased.

What's changed is that, instead of the cruise lines just filling bigger and bigger ships they are looking to ensure that they attract people who will pay more for the experience. In many cases those people will be in a younger demographic.

It's a sorry state of affairs but all cruise companies are between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand they have so much debt that it will take decades to clear it and on the other hand passenger numbers are not recovering at the rate they had hoped. And add to that... many lines just don't break even on the basis of the cruise fare alone.

For example, in 2019 the Carnival Corporation that runs 45% of all cruises worldwide spent $17,549 million on its operations but it only sold $14,104 million worth of cruise tickets. It was only $6,721 million onboard spend etc that allowed the corporation to make a $3,276 million profit.

Cruisers now seem to be cutting back on their discretionary spend on board ... hence the accelerated move by the cruise companies; to larger more efficient ships, to all inclusive packages, to phasing out older smaller ships to making other economies.

It's not only P&O.

It's something that we rile about like everyone else but to be pragmatic... if a cruise line can't break even... very soon it won't be there... and we will have lost another cruise option. 

41 minutes ago, silversurf said:

Just called Saga and our transfer on 15 April will be shared.

We're cruising with SAGA later this year and have insisted that we have a private transfer. The extra cost is minimal compared withe total cost of the holiday. Our money, our choice.

53 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

I imagine you're cruise will be safe Sharon, Moley said that Aurora and Arcadia were very likely to remain unless someone came in with a very good offer. In the current situation I think it will be many years before any cruise line will be willing to risk a large outlay on a 22 year old small to medium cruise ship.

True but.... Carnival (according to their own reports) are looking to cut the fleet and reduce overall capacity. It's no longer a case of replacing ships... it's a case of removing them.

44 minutes ago, Angel57 said:

I suspect issues relating to her being laid up for two years have arisen….. at least I hope that is the case.

The cruise lines are all in serious debt.

In the year ending 30 November 2020 Carnival made a loss of $8,865,000,000... compared to a profit of only $3.3 billion in the previous year. Other companies are in a very similar situation. How are cruise line going to finance and repay the debt? Carnival will provide a "cruise-experience" with a view of "maximising cash generation". (Carnival's words not mine) With "dynamic" pricing... Carnival and other lines will charge whatever they think that they can. In the end cruisers will pay the billions that covid has cost the cruise lines.

In their last published report; Carnival's idea was that they would end up with reduced capacity in a smaller fleet of larger more "efficient" ships. 

I suppose that we'll have to wait and see.

On 3/12/2022 at 11:16 PM, wowzz said:

The well known "Comedy Madman" Taffy Spencer will be on our Arcadia cruise? 

Anyone seen him ?

 

 Seen him on Fred Olsen... he is like on the video... having sat through his act once... I wouldn't do it a second time.

14 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

It was Carnval that bought P&O, Princess cruises from P&O UK. So in fact it was Carnival that presumably had to seek approval from P&O UK to  keep the P&O brand name.

No permission was needed. In 2000 P&O divested its cruise business to form P&O Princess Cruises which became an independent company. A couple of years later, P&O Princess Cruises agreed to join forces and merge with its US rival Carnival Corporation. By that time, P&O had no say in the matter

1 hour ago, Truro001 said:

Like yourself, being realistic, I  don’t think there is the slightest chance of any cruise ships going into the Black Sea in the foreseeable future. Perhaps I could pose a question to any “legal minds” who might be following these posts. It is my understanding that if Saga, on their own initiative, alter the itinerary of their “Ancient Wonders of the Black Sea” cruise such that the ship does not even enter the Black Sea this would constitute a significant change allowing passengers to cancel and obtain a full refund from Saga. If, on the other hand, Saga waited for the Government to advise against travel to the Black Sea and Saga then change the itinerary does this affect Saga’s liability with regard to a refund?  Does cancellation then become an insurance issue?

According to SAGA's current T&Ss...  in Unavoidable and Extraordinary Circumstances beyond their control... including actual or expected war, riots, civil strife, terrorist activity, Government action or restraint they will arrange for bookings to be terminated and for a full refund. 

16 minutes ago, Host Sharon said:

I wouldn't get photos like the one below of a masked booby catching a flying fish.

 Stunning photo. Shows one of the main reasons that we cruise... Well done!

12 hours ago, Host Sharon said:

Possibly because some (many?) of us are becoming disillusioned with P&O selling off their smaller ships. Physically I'd need a mobility scooter on Iona to get from one end to the other. I still love Aurora though and have three cruises booked on her. My others are with Saga, Fred Olsen and Oceania - all with under 1000 pax. Yes, it is a P&O board, but that doesn't preclude comparisons with other lines. People often ask about Princess or Celebrity and no one complains. 

Like many other people we choose to travel on a number of different cruise lines... and it's just natural for us to compare P&O with the other options available.

We travel most often on P&O, Fred Olsen & SAGA but also on Cunard, Princess and a variety of smaller, more specialist lines. We chose where we want to cruise, look at what's available, carefully cost out what is included and what needs to be added... then we "takes our choice and pays our money". We feel that things have changed in the last couple of years and that "cruise-comparison" shopping... comparing the quality and what's on offer is more important than ever.

P&O certainly has its advantages for us. For short cruises with overnight stays to places that we know well... we'll chose a budget cabin on something like P&O. If we go on a short hop to Amsterdam, we'll aim to spend a day in someplace like the Rijksmueeum, the Van Gough Museum or the Stedelijk Museum and then we'll enjoy the evening meal and entertainment that we've already paid for back on board. If the cruise is across to the Chanel Islands... we take the P&O excursions... which on P&O we have always found to be brilliant and exceptionally good value for money. We get what we pay for and we arrive back at the quay happy. 

For couple of weeks up the coast of Norway we've tended in the past to choose Fred Olsen rather than P&O... mainly due to the advantage of less people in the smaller ports. For instance in Tromso we'd choose to spend most day in the Arctic/Alpine Botanic Garden at the University... taxi there and local bus back. The atmosphere is amazingly tranquil, peaceful, mindful and that last thing that we want is to have thousands of cruise tourists flowing through the place all day as part of a "city excursion." But in other places, like Alta or Honningsvåg, especially in winter, it's far more economical to take and excursion rather that hire a car.

For long cruises where we want to have a balcony, lots of deck space, great dining in a variety of restaurants, fresh and exciting entertainment with drinks, gratuities and all manner of other things that really interest us and make our holiday a really worthwhile experience that we'll cherish for years... we'll chose another line... and cost-wise... it is increasingly SAGA. For what we want  they are offering us the best value for money. We're also prepared to cruise less... to pay the price of an exceptional experience.

For really exciting destinations such as Svalbard.... we use Expedition Ships but fly in and out. We extend the trip so that we have extra time in Longyearbyen and an extended stop-over in Oslo on the way home. We can do all the things that the cruise lines offer as excursions and more but far more economically... the town is transformed late in the afternoon as soon as the cruise ships leave... we can have a drink under the midnight sun while Reindeer grazing only a few yards away below our balcony.

Yes. P&O has had lots to offer and some people that we know would never dream of travelling with any other line... but times are changing and as far as we're concerned, we don't want the cheapest fare we want the best cruise, the one most suited to what we want, at the best value for what we're willing to pay.

 According to Marine traffic, the Aurora has sailed between 10 and 15 miles south-west of Curaçao.and is now turning. Destination given is Aruba. ETA 5.30 am tomorrow.

15 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

If that's correct not looking good for the 80 on Queen Victoria who are meant to be rejoining in St Lucia on the 21st.

 

The information come from the forecast route on Marine Traffic... that may well change.

As I said, only time will tell.

1 hour ago, Angel57 said:

I thought that but as she’s not due in there today thought it odd. Not sure what her next port is tho as no info online.

The Aurora is Currently mooring at the Cruise Pier Curaçao.

From what it's worth... Marine Traffic gives her next port of call as St Georges Bermuda. Suggested course... west to the eastern tip of Cuba, a dog-leg north-east towards Miami/Fort Lauderdale... then in an eastward direction through the Bahamas and onto Bermuda.

No ETA but If that's correct... an 8 to 9 day cruise after leaving Curaçao.

Only time will tell.

10 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

Does Russia have much of a naval presence in the Baltic? 

Despite the rhetoric coming out of the Kremlin I don't think they will attack any of the 3 ex USSR Baltic states, they know that will lead to a military conflict with NATO.

There does seem to be an increased Russian Military presence in the Baltic. The Russians have a naval base in Kaliningrad, a Russian enclave wedged between Poland and Lithuania. Kaliningrad has recently been reinforced by adding more firepower to bolster both its defensive and offensive potential.

Kaliningrad's EEZ extends half the way to Sweden. The Russian Navy has been practicing naval and air war-games the Baltic Sea. Six Russian Amphibious Warfare ships left the naval base in Kaliningrad, and entered the Baltic Sea in mid-January... Sweden had no option except to send trips to potentially  "defend" the island of Gotland.

But... I'm in the same mind as you at the moment... threat and rhetoric rather than military conflict.