twotravellersLondon

19 hours ago, tring said:

Do you know how this aligns with Fred's ships, along with potential ability to adapt them to new constraints?  I know when Fred Jnr first mentioned potential new builds (about 2016/7, or thereabouts IIRC),

A bit off the topic but that's a very good question... sorry that the answer will be a tad long. I posted ages ago... but it seems to have vanished!

Put simply, I don't think that FOCLs ships will meet these new Norwegian requirements and, in the wider context, there will be a potential problem meeting the new CII requirements.

The International Maritime Organisation has set a target of reducing annual greenhouse gas emissions in shipping by at least 40% by 2030 and... a 70% reduction by 2050.

There are going to be new rules... the Energy Efficiency Existing Ship Index (EEXI) and the Carbon Intensity Indicator (CII). These are due to come into force on 1 January 2023.

The CII, an operational measure of how efficiently a ship transports goods or passengers, is a framework for determining the efficiency of new-builds and is a one-off assessment.

EEXI is an annual assessment. The highest grade is A and the lowest is E. Any ship getting an E grade has to immediately do something about it... and any ship getting a D in three consecutive years is in the same position... in both cases they are likely to be denied access to many ports and territorial waters.

Both EEXI and CII are complex and evolving and the final details are still pretty woolly.

The old Rotterdam and Amsterdam are now very old technology... almost as old as the Braemar. They weren't refitted... only "refreshed." The vessels can be nudged toward a higher level of compliance by improved voyage planning, reduced speed, using alternative fuels (a very big ask), on-board energy savings, regular dry docking to clean the hull (expensive), new more efficient propellers and by even fitting speed limiters. But they can't ever expect to compete with new-builds.

But if the annual inspecting authorities take into account occupancy rates, FOCLs may have a serious problem. The CO2 footprint and the power consumption of his ships is about the same whether they're full of half empty. So if the calculations are based on average passenger numbers... there could be potential problems with certification.

But look at the Borealis and Bolette, Holland America's old Rotterdam, and Amsterdam, in the wider context. They both have been replaced by the new ships characterised by an eco-friendly and resource-saving designs. There's evidence that FOCLs' balcony and suite passengers have been migrating to SAGA. It is now offering new ships with technology aimed at optimising energy efficiency and minimising environmental impact while enabling them to comply to the most demanding current safety regulations. There's also evidence of competition for the budget end of the market from the new Ambassador line, which is building new ships with emission reduction technologies to help reduce nitrogen oxide emissions by 95% compared to current standards.

In about 2017, FOCLs' dream was for two new ships… the MV Bonheur to be launched in the summer of 2019 and the MV Bonny which was to be launched in the summer of 2020. Some of the staff on board the Braemar even had contracts specifying that they would be expected to work on the MV Bonheur. These ships were even listed on Wikipedia and mentioned (not always by name) in several cruise blogs at the time. (gone now)

At the end of 2019 and with only three weeks to go, FOCLs, like many other companies, was scrambling to get the Braemar, the Black Watch and the Balmoral up to the compliance level of the International Maritime Organisation 2020 regulations on pollution… and to avoid them being banned in certain water, excluded for certain ports or impounded if they broke the regulations! 

So as I say... I worry that there will be a potential problem for many older ships meeting the new requirements.

4 hours ago, tring said:

The Baltic is well away from Ukrainia and the Russian forces have not been building up by the borders of Baltic countries, so we have no fear whatsoever to visit the other Baltic countries and are very much looking forward to our cruise, which sails on 24th May.

Sadly the world has changed and... changed very quickly.

There does seem to be an increased Russian Military presence in the Baltic.

Just a few months ago Russia was adding more firepower to its Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad to bolster both its defensive and offensive potential by adding more tanks and so on.

In May 2021, the Russian defence, Minister Sergei Shoigu, said the Russian military would form 20 new units in the country’s west. “In total, the offensive potential of the Russian Army’s Land Forces in the western strategic direction was increased by over 50%. 

Six Russian Amphibious Warfare ships left their naval base in Kaliningrad, a Russian enclave wedged between Poland and Lithuania, and entered the Baltic Sea in mid-January... the number of ships was unusually high and the Russian Navy has been practicing naval and air war-games the Baltic Sea.

Sweden had no option except to send trips to potentially  "defend" the island of Gotland.

Massive Russian war-games just a few months ago demonstrated Russia had the ability to dive a military corridor through Lithuania to the Kaliningrad... from where it would dominate the Baltic... and intimidate Scandinavia and all sorts of other places.

This is not a game... but what's happening in Russian is likely to have been planned and prepared for months and years and will be executed like a chess game by a Grand Master.

The question may soon be... does any cruise-line want to put it's ships and passengers in a potential war zone?
 

6 hours ago, milolii said:

Are restrictions in place for the Norwegian fjords with regard to number, size and environmental concerns?

 On this particular point... my understanding is that...

On the 1 March 2018, the Norwegian Government passed new environmental requirements for emissions and discharges by cruise ships operating in the world heritage fjords the Nærøyfjord, Aurlandsfjord, Geirangerfjord, Sunnylvsfjord and Tafjord.

The idea was to reduce the emissions and discharges from cruise ships and other vessels by entering into law requirements have been drawn up by the Norwegian Maritime Authority (NMA) on behalf of the Norwegian Ministry of Climate and Environment.

The Law lays down new environmental requirements with the aim of reducing the emissions and discharges in these areas. NOx emission requirements and the regulation of the use of exhaust gas cleaning systems will gradually become stricter. In addition, a requirement for an environmental instruction for the individual ship and a prohibition against incineration of waste on board will be introduced. The sulphur emissions will have to comply with international requirements in all the world heritage fjords. 

The requirements will apply to ships irrespective of the year of construction

However, some older ships which are protected or given status as historical by the Norwegian Directorate for Cultural Heritage can apply for exemption from certain provisions.

The new requirements are being introduced gradually and were already beginning to have an effect in 2019.

Over the next few years, the requirements will gradually become stricter, and the emissions and discharges are expected to be further reduced.

The zero-emission regulations affecting Norway’s world heritage fjords first are intended to be fully in place by 2026.

Hope that helps... at least a bit.

Many thanks for your comments on your experiences in recent months. It's good to have an insight from someone who has recently sailed.

Can anyone give us a guide to current excursion prices on Fred Olsen?

Pre-covid... a not too special excursion used to cost about £10 an hour + about £5 to £10 on top... and, if a meal was included, about another £20 on top of that. We remember paying about £35 per head for a half day city tour and about £85 for a full day trip with lunch.

Also what is the availability like? We've heard that some people have had problems trying to book excursions... even as soon as they went on sale. So it would be very helpful to hear other's recent experiences. 

4 hours ago, PEMCO007 said:

Looks like P&O have revised their policies for 12-17  year olds.  Now all passengers aged 12-17 must be fully vaccinated up to 30 April 2022.  No doubt this will affect a few families travelling over Easter.

This rule only applies in the EU. They have no jurisdiction anywhere outside the EU. If you're travelling transatlantic you can totally ignore EU regulations. They are irrelevant.  

5 hours ago, NorbertsNiece said:

Much activity dockside; luggage unloading, supplies being delivered, diesel (?) being pumped, passengers disembarking.

As frequent cruisers who've not been to sea for two whole years and are a bit nervous about it... your regular, honest, factual updates, that we can so easily relate to, have been wonderful. We hope that the rest of your cruise goes well and that you really enjoy it. And now... we can't wait to joint our SAGA cruise in a few months time... except we'll have icebergs rather than pelicans!

Many thanks.

2 hours ago, richard_london said:

So if, with the new bigger ships are going to the same ports of call as other lines, but for higher costs, Fred are relying on brand loyalty.  However, their product is changing, so perhaps they are testing that loyalty?  I will wait and see what the remaining 2023 itineraries looks like, hopefully there will be some distinctive Braemar and Balmoral cruises I can consider.

You're right about the fact that there was no drydocking.

For a time the four ships rode it out in the Firth of Forth and then the all moored in the Babcock yard at Rosyth... FOCLs took everything that they reasonably could from the Black Watch and the Boudicca... all of Fred Jun's paintings, the furniture and suchlike and that was later transferred to the Bolette and the Borealis. The two old HAL ships were sold to Bonheur, FOCL's ultimate owner, for $37m... fully payable in 5 years but finance arrange by HAL. The two old HAL ships were stripped and lightly refitted at the Damen Shipyards in Schiedam, near Rotterdam of everything that HAL wanted before they were transferred to Rosyth.

We really do sympathise with you that you've had so many cruises delayed. Immediately before covid we had one biggie booked with Fred and we were able to have that cancelled under FOCL's cooling off period in the company T&Cs of the time.... although FOCLs didn't like it and we were made to feel a bit uncomfortable and made to wait for our deposit. That was a shame... because we were at a pretty high level in the Loyalty Club and we had often cruised with FOCLs three of four times a year.

When cruising resumed, we found that the prices were astronomical... a short non-stop trip around a bit of the UK was going to cost us the same price as a similar cabin had in the Caribbean for two weeks not long before covid.

Admitted we had normally booked on board, taken a 10% discount and a suite upgrade but the "welcome back" prices were far, far more that we considered the cruises to be worth. If as you suggest, FOCLs "are relying on brand loyalty, they will be disappointed in our case. 

We used to meet lots of lovely people on board who believed that Fred was "excellent," "first-class," "fabulous" and so on. Many would never dream of travelling with anyone else... indeed most hadn't for decades and had never seen the inside of a modern ship.

But the world has changed: CLIA has reported that cruise consumer confidence has been severely dented and about a quarter of the people who were cruising in 2019 are not likely to cruise again in the next few years. In the absence of onboard discounts.... many people like ourselves have looked very carefully at the markets and found that we can cruise far more economically than with FOCLs. 

Also most other-cruise lines have an understandable sales strategy... they start high and go lower or they do the opposite. FOCLs seem to operate a flexible cruise-pricing strategy so that prices can go up and down and up like a roller coaster. What struck us was that not long before covid we had a cabin on the top deck... discounts and upgrades etc... to thank for that but still costly... what we noticed was that of the 20 or so cabins, only three were occupied and one of those was by a chap who had something to do with the company.

Like you, we will also wait and see what the remaining 2023 itineraries looks like and hopefully we'll have an interesting cruise on the  Braemar or the Balmoral. In the meantime we have a cruise booked with SAGA this year and we're on the priority list for the new 2023 SAGA season.

If the "Olsen way" now is to is to offer pretty standard itineraries, cut costs and raise prices to a level that just can't compete with the competition... a goody bag of crisps in the cabin and a glass of pop and a mini-sausage roll with the captain at a loyalty reception... just won't win us back.

2 hours ago, richard_london said:

I hadn't considered that Fred could get squeezed by Saga and Ambassador.  Ambassador have already lined up a second ship and seem keen to expand.  I wonder how this will all work out. 

Many thanks for your thought-provoking comment.

I think that you may well be right that FOCLs got too big, too quickly. 

The opportunity to pick up these two ships for a song came at a time that everybody in the industry knew that CMV was in a bit of a financial pickle and the purchase may have seemed to be opportune at the time when many people thought that Covid would be all done by Christmas and someone else could pick up CMV's client base.

The problem is that the pandemic has hit the cruise industry and passenger confidence very hard. The 2021 CLIA report suggested that only 74%  of pre-covid cruisers are likely to cruise again in the next few years.

So competition is likely to remain fierce and FOCLs don't seem to be winning at the moment. To give a better idea, there are four ships doing Iceland and Greenland from the UK this summer. The number of days vary but the "from" pppd for the least expensive cabin; is Ambassador £76, Princess £149 and Fred Olsen £180... so Fred is much more expensive for the most basic cabin. For balcony cabins (not terraces with no balcony) the prices are Princess £154, Ambassador £173, SAGA £306 and FOCLs £412. While SAGA are sold out and aren't advertising the cruise... FOCLs still seems to have lots of cabins available.

It just doesn't look good for FOCLs unless they can come up with a business plan that increases their market share... something that they have failed to do for the last ten years. Perhaps the Bolete and the Borealis may be better suited to a particular type of mass-market. 

However, I would love to see FOCLs use the Braemar as an exploration (rather than an expedition  ship visiting lots of hard to get to, out of the way places and I would be happy to ditch five course "fine-dining" dinners for the choice of wholesome food like we've experienced on expedition ships and I would be happy to ditch the same old show company performance for a really good introduction to the area that we're sailing in or something else appropriate... again as we've experienced on expedition ships. 

And... I think that lots of other people would be sold on the idea as well. It would after all be the "Olsen way"... To quote... "In our world, smaller is better, and we believe in keeping the experience on board uncrowded, warm and civilised - treating passengers as guests, like the family-run business we are."

6 hours ago, richard_london said:

But, in this day and age, do small ships still make money at Fred's traditional prices?  (Your comment about the Braemar got me worried, I do hope she stays in service).  Fred Olsen's offering pre-pandemic was different, and...it's hard to describe....cosier, more comforting?  

The Olsen Way is for "cabins to be called cabins," "ships to look like ships" and for "the onboard experience to be uncrowded, warm and civilised."

Your point hits the nail fairly and squarely on the head. Small ships just can't break even at budget prices... just look at any of the accounts of the companies running small budget cruise ships over the last 10 or 20 years... and so many companies that are now history. 

 All of the financial figures are public and It's no secret that before Covid, it cost, on average, £50,000,000 a year to keep each and every one of Fred's ship cruising. To even break even, FOCLs had to achieve an occupancy level of over 70%. Even when ships were laid up, it was costing about £4 million a quarter.

FOCLs was making a very small profit between 2015 and 2019... but it was only a few pounds per person per night on average.... and that included everything ... the entire spend per person; gratuities, excursions, spa, drinks and on-board shopping.

Cruise companies with smaller ships have few options. They can raise prices, introduce economies or buy bigger ships. FOCLs have now done all three.  Increasing prices and introducing economies resulted in occupancy levels declining between 2009 and 2019: the number of passenger nights on board dropped from about 1.3 million to just over 1 million. 

FOCLs has now increased his capacity from about 3,879 beds to about 4,959 beds... at a time that FOCLs had only been filling an average of only  2,792 of those beds over the four ships over a year as a whole. It will be very interesting to see how he tries to fill these beds with profitable clients in what's now a very aggressively competitive market.... when companies like SAGA are offering like for like balconies and suites at a lower price than FOCLs and Ambassador are rapidly moving into the budget market.

And you're absolutely right about the size of the Bolette and the Borealis. Each is twice the tonnage of either the Black Watch or the Boudicca and they will be more expensive to operate... for instance, mooring charges are based on tonnage. As ships... what's advertised just doesn’t appeal to us. I'm not taken-in  by the "passenger to space ratio idea on these ships... it's simply the cubic volume on enclosed space divided by the maximum number of passengers... so the atrium is counted, the area enclosed by the swimming pool roof and the huge central void in the main dining room... all useless space.

Like you I very much hope that Braemar will cruise on for many a year and become a much-loved vintage cruiser.  There is great potential there and FOCLs has a perfect small ship for those who want to enjoy a holiday at sea. (You may know that as the Crown Dynasty she had an identical sister ship, the Crown Jewel, which by 2017 had become the MV Gemini before being renamed the Blue World One in 2019. She was to undergo a $75 million refit which included gutting and redesigning the top four decks.) If she can keep cruising... so can the Braemar... but without the redesign!

One salient fact is that the losses made by the cruise industry over the last couple of years is quite astonishing. Individual companies have borrowed not millions, not tens of millions but hundreds of millions and there is just no way that they can pass these losses onto customers... if they want to retain their client base. In my opinion, success will be to maximise capacity by offering a value money product and filling every single cabin with happy cruiser who feel that they're getting value for money and a wonderful experience.

If the Olsen Way is for "cabins to be called cabins," "ships to look like ships" and for "the onboard experience to be uncrowded, warm and civilised" there can be few better ships to provide that than the Braemar.

1 hour ago, tring said:

Certainly as time has gone on it has become more and more difficult to find a ship of a decent size that can be used for unusual destinations (

Many thanks for your comments. I do think that you're perfectly  right about it being more difficult to find a ship of a decent size... something that screams sea, sun, waves, wide open skies, birds and dolphins... we had hoped that was what the "Olsen way" would have delivered.

What is the "Olsen Way?" Well, the only ship that we've even been on designed (and redesigned) by the Olsen Family was the wonderful Black Prince. 

It was a long time ago... but we had cabin 708... complete with wood panelling an ancient bath-tub and furniture very firmly bolted down. (We realised why in the first Atlantic storm!) We ate in the Fleur de Lys restaurant enjoyed simple entertainments in the two-tier Neptune Lounge. We thought that it was a lovely little ship. There was lots of deck-space, and observation area at the front of the ship and, at breakfast, a chef service newly made omelettes from a little hatch in the Balblom Restaurant at the back of the Marquee deck. And of course it had its own floating outdoor leisure centre that extended out of the rear of the ship from the Marina Deck.

The Black Prince  was the best of Fred Olsen... reasonably priced, friendly staff, good food, comfortable for the period and it took us to unbelievably exciting places. It gave us our first sighting of an iceberg, our first blue whale and our first ever glimpse of the Greenland icecap.

So, when way back at the beginning of 2017, Fred Olsen Jun discussed with the travel press how he was beginning to envisage the future for the company and the possibility of new purpose-built ships... we were really excited.

The Company had surveyed Loyalty members in June 2017 to find out what they would like in a cruise and what they would be willing to pay. Questions included the size of the ship, all-inclusive drinks, excursions etc, itineraries including hard-to-reach destinations that few got to see, price-point and the type of fellow-passengers. Another survey very specifically asked about what potential passengers would like to see on a purpose-built 600 pax exploration ship.

Early in 2018, Fred Olsen Jun announced that there were plans "on the drawing board" for new ocean vessels. He explained that, any new ships would be smaller ocean ships which is what FOCLs wanted as a brand and what the Company's customers wanted. As far as we were concerned.... Fred was right.

In 2019 Fred Olsen Jun discussed with the travel press that "A series" of 600-passenger "exploratory ships" would be introduced. He added it wouldn't make commercial sense to order just one purpose-built vessel and that more would follow. Asked if there would be as many as four new ships, he answered with a smile: "Why not?"

Fred Olsen Jun was reported as saying that the company was talking to yards to see which one could produce the right design of small ship to suit FOCL's passengers. At a lunch for media in London, Fred Olsen Jun said: "A ship around 600 passengers will give us the variety of restaurants – four different restaurants – pubs, oriental rooms for teas, observatory lounge, balconies and all that plus RIBs (rigid inflatable boats) and specialised tenders, so we can take you to St Tropez in high heels and a summer dress in an air-conditioned boat while tender boats are doing the tender service."

Fred assured journalists; "We don’t want to build one 600-passenger ship, we want to build a series which is why we’re talking to shipyards. The ships will be able to complement [our current fleet] and give us a new opportunity on destinations."

We also had a more detailed email survey that seems to indicate a starting price of £300 pppn, small ports, a bespoke service for what we wanted to do onshore, a concierge service available to us on the quay and all sorts of other exciting possibilities. Although we though the price was tad high.

In August 2019, Mike Rodwell, the MD at the time, was quoted as saying to the press, “conditions are right” for a new ship build and predicted his replacement Peter Deer, who was just about to take over as MD, would oversee the project.

So we had the vision that Fred would be offering of bright, airy, small ships with lots of deck space, bigger cabins, a bit of the Scandinavian styling that we've got used to in hotels in Iceland, Norway, Sweden and Finland, an exhilarating choice of eateries and exciting itineraries to new uncrowded destinations. We were immensely excited by Fred's vision of a series of new ships designed the "Olsen Way."

What we have instead, the Bolette and the Borealis, seems to be the total antithesis of what we were looking forward to. Although we've not been on either ship as yet, we have friends who have, we've scrutinised reviews, devoured photographs and looked for measured opinions... we don't want to be unfair... and certainly wouldn't dismiss these ships as "blocks of flats!" as we've seen some do.

However our impression is that compared to a ship like the Braemar, useable outside deck space for relaxation and a decent unobstructed view of the sea is less good...especially as the prom deck has been "sold" to the terrace cabins. (Something similar just didn't work on the Boudicca... in our view.) Our impression is that the interiors of the ship seem to be inward looking, and potentially a bit dark... like lots of American ships in the 1990s... and so diametrically different from the light airy effects created in modern architecture and many new-build ships these days. From the pictures that we've seen... some of the public areas in these "new" ships are far more psychedelic than we would appreciate.

So after having been sitting waiting with bated breath since early in 2017 to see Fred Jun's concept of a fleet of exploration ships... and really buying into what we thought was the "Olsen way", we're a wee bit deflated by the current offering.

However, perhaps we may one day see his fleet of exploration ships.

On 11/28/2021 at 2:16 PM, cruisemom42 said:

Off topic a bit, but what ever happened to the ship that Swan Hellenic was using toward the end of their run?  (She was called Minerva at the time but I think she was the second of that name....) 

On 11/29/2021 at 8:58 PM, rkacruiser said:

On behalf of my friends who loved this vessel and lack internet access, I did quite a bit of searching and came up empty on whatever happened to her.  A bit odd of a result, I think.

On 11/29/2021 at 11:21 PM, tring said:

She could well have been re named, though I presume she has not been used as a cruise ship to be booked by the general public or we would likely have found something. 

I saw this thread ages ago but didn't connect that the Minerva had, in a previous incarnation, been the original Saga Pearl otherwise I would have responded much earlier.

Early in 2018, the Administrators of the All-Leisure Group was reported that the company's only asset a debt of £1.6 million owed by the Athol Shipping Group. The ASG was a subsidiary of the ALG and was responsible for chartering the Minerva from its "ultimate owner." They also reported that ASO had no assets and so the debt could not be paid. A long and sorrowful tale!

From what I understand, the Minerva was laid up in Marseille after ALG ended operations.

On the 18th of September 2017 the Minerva was sold by the superyacht broker, Peter Insull, to an client for an undisclosed sum. It was the largest ship every sold by the company. At the time, the company was unable to comment about the future of the vessel.

The speculation in the trade press at the time was that MV Minerva, would be rebuilt or converted into a charter yacht. As Peter Insull's yacht marketing had been involved in the deal there was also the suggestion that that there was a good chance that the that MV Minerva vessel would become a luxury super-yacht. If that had been the case MV Minerva would have been as one of the largest super-yachts in the world. So personally, I think that idea was a bit OTT.

I'm not sure what happened after that but I do know that the Minerva left Khalkis Greece on the morning of 28 March 2020 and arrived and docked in Eleusis, Greece, later that same day. She doesn't seem to have moved since.

As far as I know the MV Minerva is still registered in Malta and seems to be owned by the Levante International Trading Co., which seems to be based in Amman, Jordan but is a very complex group of companies.

MV Minerva is being maintained, has power and her on-board AIS is operational... you can locate her on the main sites

.

She is still registered as the MV Minerva and she is docked adjacent to Privatsea Marine Services S.A. at Eleusis. That company seems to have been dealing with the Minerva over the last couple of years.

Privatsea Marine Services S.A undertake for maintenance, light repairs, redesign and storage.  The company operates as a tax-free zone and can, if need be, provide the ship with; power, telecommunications, water, waste, fuel, storage and 24-hour security. 

Privatsea Marine Services also deals with charters and sales and is currently offering the MV Minerva for charter as a Boutique Cruise Ship or alternatively for sale... at €35 million. The brochure can be found at the address below.

So the good new is... that we may, in the future, see this once great little ship on the high seas!

https://www.privatsea.com/images/charter-sales/yacht_for_charter/minerva/minerva-brochure_2018-11-29.pdf

4 hours ago, tring said:

An unfortunate time for that itinerary to come out, but presumably Putin had not given Fred details of his intentions before the cruise was planned! 

Having to cancel cruises can be something of a double-edged sword for cruise lines.

On the one hand a lot of work will have gone into planning the itinerary, selling the berths and much more will go into dealing with the cancellation and cruise lines really don't like to upset their customers.

However firstly, if a cruise line can convert a cancellation into a future cruise-credit, it will make a significantly vital difference to the company's cash flow in these very difficult times.

Secondly, if the company can persuade disappointed clients to take a different cruise, both the original booking and the replacement booking are counted as "bookings" and this can be reported in the company accounts.

FOCLs report to their ultimate owners every quarter. Their key financials include operating revenues, the number of passenger/days and profit/loss. FOCLs also indicate the "strength" of bookings. All companies see future bookings as an indication of future performance.

In early February this year, FOCLs were quoted in a fair number of industry publications as saying that it had a "bumper" January and that sales had "returned to pre-pandemic levels." Peter Deer, FOCL's MD, was quoted as saying, “The new year has brought with it a fresh wave of optimism for overseas travel"  and that FOCLs were looking forward to a successful summer season and beyond.

That's the type of optimistic news that owners and investors really want to hear at the moment. It's also the type of positive news that might give many potential clients the incentive and confidence to book ahead.

We would be interested in the White Sea... (tried and failed to get there in the past due to violent storms) but the idea of dragging ourselves, the type of gear that we would want wear for a day on deck in arctic waters.... (even in the summer months) all they way to Newcastle and back is off-putting. (We've been there and done that before when we were on Boudicca's circumnavigation of the North Atlantic).

If the Russian Bear does become unfriendly (and I very seriously hope... NOT), it would be more than possible to ditch the Soviet bit, go from Honningsvag to Svalbard and on past Jan Mayen Land to Iceland and then spend a few days in Greenland before returning to the UK.
 

16 minutes ago, Wacktle said:

Yes, plus any of the other included drinks 🍷🍸🍺

The only things not included are premium wine and spirits but from past experience what was on offer as all inclusive was pretty reasonable stuff compared with what we've had with some other companies. One night, before covid, we celebrated one of life's little milestones, bought a bottle of good wine and were given it half-price. Hope that's still on offer! 🍷🍷

2 hours ago, ozscotart said:

Screenshot from nhsinform you do not need to isolate if fully vaccinated and a close contact, you do need to do daily lfts:

That's perfectly true for someone in Scotland and, of course, there's similar guidance that applies in other parts of the UK.

 
It's preceded by the statement that "Self-isolating when you are asked to is the best way to prevent the spread of coronavirus (COVID-19). It’s very important that you stay at home (self-isolate) if... you've been told to self-isolate because you're a close contact of a positive case" And, of course, there are exceptions listed.

Cruising is one of the most heavily regulated industries on earth. with robust, clearly defined standards. The average ship undergoes dozens of announced and unannounced safety inspections per year, and the implementation of thousands of specific requirements set by the International Maritime Organization (IMO) and other authorities. 

Individual cruise companies adopt policies in line with the legal and regulatory framework of the Cruise Line International Association and those policies may be different from  the guidance that applies in passengers' home countries.

When we buy a cruise, we enter into a legal contract and we're bound by it... even if the onboard arrangements change between booking and the ship sailing.

So, if we don't particularly like a policy... sadly the only alternative seems to be not to book cruises with CLIA members.
 

12 hours ago, Coravel said:

We transited the Corinth canal in 2005 on the poorly named Ocean Majesty which was leased to Page and Moy.  Apart from the fact that we could easily touch the canal walls the most memorable part involved locals bungee jumping onto the ship's main deck.  The captain was extremely annoyed and kept blasting them with the ship's horn.

We remember the Ocean Majesty very well... She did not too badly for a converted car ferry!

We last saw her in the port of Sami, Kefalonia in October 2019. Before Covid, there was some suggestion that she might cruise from the UK again and was open for viewing in London and, I think, either Portsmouth of Falmouth. 

We'd sail on her again just for the nostalgia. Happy memories.

5 hours ago, kruzgal said:

ou are not required to isolate, even if contacted by track and trace, if you are fully vaccinated. All passengers on SAGA are fully vaccinated. Daily lateral flow tests are recommended, which would be fine and a more sensible approach.

We would self-isolate because we care about other people and wouldn't like to endanger them or to diminish their enjoyment of their holiday.

We're on the Spirit of Discovery soon and we will be self-isolating for a couple of weeks before we join the ship.

We feel that we have a moral responsibility of care towards others and that we should be careful, cautious and considerate.

4 hours ago, kruzgal said:

Track and trace is over. Why are Saga still using it? Absolute joke.

The responsibilities of cruise companies are laid out in detail in the UK Chamber of Shipping's Framework for UK Operations during Covid-19 for operators. You can find a copy and all the updates at  https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-cruise-ship-travel#ukcos

If any cruise company didn't follow the guidance... lots of people would take issue if they caught covid.

Some people prefer that cruise lines follow the guidance because it gives them more confidence to cruise.

Anyone who's not happy about a cruise line's protocols and procedures can choose not to book with that company.

20 hours ago, tring said:

I have not been impressed with Fred's attitude on a number of cruises when he has tried to imply people could not cancel! 

I very much agree.

At the beginning of covid we changed our mind on a cruise that we had just booked under the cooling off period that was part of Fred's T&Cs at the time. We were using our legal rights to decide not to go ahead... legally the "contract" did't even begin until after the end of Fred's cooling off period.  

What should have been a simple, pleasant phone-call was anything but... and we had to point out their legal obligations under their own T&Cs.

The experience made and impression... but not a good one. And we had to wait ages for our money.

2 hours ago, tring said:

I am sure a trip to Greece will offer many possible trips through there on a variety of vessels and the smaller ones will IMO have a better view

Even before the canal was closed there were precious few  "trips" "on a variety of vessels." There were virtually no tourist  trips along the canal of any kind. The vast majority of tourists saw the canal from excursion coaches on a tour of the Peloponnese or on a day trip to someplace like Olympia. If they were lucky, they might have a quick photo stop at the end of the E94 bridge... unless the needed to use the "facilities."

People cruise for different reasons and we fully appreciate from what you say that this would not be your ideal cruise.

However, there were a great many people in 2019 who found it a tremendously memorable, novel, and adventurous experience. I doubt that we all could have had a better view than from the height of the Braemar's decks... especially as the transit was made at a time the sun illuminated the Peloponnese side and really brought out the colours of the rock, the wild flowers and ever a fox sulking alone the sheer cliff.

The ship's rails were packed for hours during the transit and afterward, when we cruised into the Gulf of Corinth, there was talk of little else from those around us. The excitement was really intense. When Captain Jozo Glavic was able to join us all at the pool BBQ that afternoon he was welcomed with cheers, applause and handshakes. It was a real hero's welcome.

We had friends who paid very considerably more to secure a cabin on a later Corinth cruise (sadly cancelled)  and we know others who also really wanted this particular cruise... because of the Corinth Canal transit. The later Corinth Canal cruises were some of the most popular that FOCLs have launched in recent years.

And that's why the point of the comment is important...  does FOCL's phrase " as closely as possible" mean that FOCL is hedging its bets and will still charge a considerable premium for this cruise even if, at the end of the day, the Braemar doesn’t make a transit of the canal?

Can't resist another photo!

3 hours ago, kruzgal said:

If Saga are forcing people into their cabins for 9 days on the basis that someone at the next dining table tested positive within 48 hours then the cost of the cruise should be refunded at the very least. 

We fully understand your comments about wanting to be compensated... but... you can insure yourself in case of the eventuality that you need to self-isolate. 

Like everybody else we know and accept the risks of cruising. We took the responsibility and cancelled two cruises which we deemed would be too risky for us personally. We've spent almost two years now getting cruise ready... we've lost weight, got fitter and have the attitude that we hope for the best, prepare for the worst and will be grateful for small mercies.

We now feel that the risk level of cruising is acceptable are booking again and have a long cruise in the next few months. But we've taken the responsibility of ensuring that we have on-board self-isolation cover.

It seems to us that the responsibility of SAGA, or any other cruise line, is to follow industry protocols and, if we're a potential risk to others we expect to be asked to self-isolate.

People like us "are putting up with this" because we trust some cruise lines and we're willing to take a degree of responsibility for looking out for our own interests. 

On 2/5/2022 at 9:16 PM, Jellifer said:

I’ve not heard yet but have been checking this link to see which voyages they are currently re-arranging.

I notice that FOCL's statement on their website is that options for guests on the cancelled Braemar cruises of the Corinth Canal are that, "Our Journey Planners are developing a new cruise itinerary for you in our 2023/24 season aboard  Braemar. This will match, as closely as possible, the cruise you had previously booked... we will automatically transfer your booking over to this new cruise." There is no mention that this "new itinerary" will include the Corinth Canal.

I wonder why FOCL have used the phrase "as closely as possible?"

The Corinth Canal was closed between 13 & 19 November 2020 after the cargo ship "Nemesis" was grounded after part of the canal wall collapsed.

The Corinth Canal was again closed by a landslide in January 2021. Work was started to reopen the canal but more landslides in July 2021 stopped work all together and the canal has now been closed for well over a year.

Work was again due to start in January 2022. That was also postponed and another announcement was made on 10 February 2022 that work would begin "next week." but that's not happened. On Monday a plan to reopen the canal was laid before the Greek Parliament... with and estimated bill that had soared from € 9 million to € 30 million.

There seems to be no great doubt that the canal can be cleared but there is no certainty that further landslides won't close it again or that geotechnical studies will determine the canal sides are too unstable for the route to be reopened. (What makes matters so uncertain is that Greece has a couple of serious earthquakes every year.)

Obviously, it's all out of FOCL's control so that may be the reason why, "Journey Planners are developing a new cruise itinerary for you ...this will match, as closely as possible, the cruise you had previously booked..."

So does FOCL's phrase " as closely as possible" mean that FOCL is hedging its bets and will still charge a considerable premium for this cruise even if, at the end of the day, the Braemar doesn’t make a transit of the canal?

We took the photo below on the Braemar's Corinth Canal transit in 2019... an amazing atmosphere on board... great deck party afterwards... Captain Jozo Glavic later given a wholehearted standing ovation in the Neptune Lounge by the passengers.... something to remember for a lifetime. So, we're sure that lots of people would really be disappointed if the canal transit wasn't possible in 2023 and there was no exciting alternative available at the time.

On 2/10/2022 at 6:03 PM, CeaJay said:

  We have been fed and watered.

We've been following your thread with the greatest of sympathy and are delighted that you're both able to get out and about again.We also hope that you were supplied with a choice of good food and the odd glass or two of wine. If we were in your situation, we would have wanted nothing less!

2 hours ago, nosapphire said:

Nobody knows when or if the EU ports will insist on hotel quarantining instead of ship quarantine

A lot of the confusion and issues in EU ports seems to come from individual governments and individual port officials interpretating EU guidance as they see appropriate.

They should follow.... one of the latest EU documents... the European Maritime Safety Agency's... "Guidance on the gradual and safe resumption of operations of cruise ships in the European Union in relation to the COVID-19 pandemic." It's available at... https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/default/files/documents/COVID-CRUISE-GUIDANCE-revision-1-May-2021.pdf  It applies to any ship visiting an EU port. It should really be read in conjunction with "Interim Guidance For Preparedness And Response To Cases Of Covid-19 At Points of Entry In The European Union... " (Only recommended for those who have a lot of spare time on their hands and nothing else to do!) 

We think that the problem is that individual port officials may be swayed by all manner of concernes when they make their decisions... rather than what's best for the passengers themselves. 

We just don't want the hassle and are hoping to avoid some of these problems by cruising north to Iceland and Greenland on the Spirit of Discovery. We're looking into our own insurance to check out with them how they will deal with things in the eventuality of Covid.

We hope, if all goes awry, that at the very least we will be able to isolate in a pleasant cabin with its own balcony and that we will be able to do a bit of bird-watching, dolphin-spotting and whale watching as well as enjoying the scenery at times.

Personally and very sadly, we'll be giving places like Spain a miss for the time being. 

58 minutes ago, tring said:

Fred used to use the inside channel when traveling on the Norwegian coast, but not sure if he can still do it with the bigger ships, if not it is another disadvantage of those ships as the inside passage can miss a lit of bad weather.

The Bolette began to turn toward Bodø about breakfast time this morning and then turned back towards the Norwegian Sea. One possibility was the wind and the weather conditions and another possibility was because of the fishing fleet just south of the Lofoten Islands... about a dozen or so trawlers are on the herring shoals and so too will be about 120 Orca... the captain may have hoped to have a few sightings. (We stayed up there in late December a few years back... -38˚C with windchill... one of my cameras imploded because of the cold... while we were out searching for Orca!)

The Bolette is now heading straight for the entrance to Trondheim. Oddly she's well out to sea.... about 35 km west of the Island of Vega and seems to have avoided the Seven Sisters and will not pass Troghatten... unless she makes a big detour. Our friends on the Nordkapp very close-by, they're between Vega and the mainland. The weather there is really nice... bright skies, thin covering of snow, good sea conditions and so on. It's a pity that the passengers on board Bolette seem to be too far out to sea to see the snow-covered mountains.

Also oddly, the Bolette has not filled a new course as yet and there is nothing on the Trondheim arrival boards and nothing on the Ålesund arrival boards to say that she's expected there... but the boards may not be accurate. 

We will have to wait and see... but its a pity for the passengers if they are missing out on, what must be, amazing scenic cruising....especially as the scene at Bodø was just glorious this morning when the Bolette was due to arrive.

11 hours ago, tring said:

it was meant to be guidance for the whole of Europe, not just the EU, since ships do sail between all European countries.

17 hours ago, ozscotart said:

Norway and Iceland are Schengen so may have different rules.

The EMSA is a EU organisation. 

It was founded by the EU in 2002. It is funded by the EU and it is answerable to the EU. The UK opted out of the EMSA in 2016. There is cooperation, to a greater or lesser extent, between the EU's EMSA and comparable Maritime organisations in the UK, Norway & Iceland. The UK, Norway and Iceland are not members of the EMSA,  and don't come under the jurisdiction of the EMSA.

You'll probably see from the document itself that it was EU organisations, trade unions and trade bodies that contributed rather than individual governments.

It should really be read in conjunction with "Interim Guidance
For Preparedness And Response To Cases Of Covid-19 At Points of Entry In The European Union... " if you've a lot of spare time on your hands!

Any ship visiting any EU port should expect to be held to account to the letter and law of EU regulations. That includes having the right crew training, the right medical and isolation facilities, and an emergency contingency plan for passengers and crew to receive medical treatment on shore. 

So while any UK, Norway or Icelandic based cruise ship would need to satisfy the EU's mechanical, organisational and facilities requirements in a EU port, how the same ship would be treated and dealt with by a non-EU port may be very different.

At the moment, I have friends sailing up and down the Norwegian coast looking out for the Northern Lights on Hurtigruten's Nordkapp. They have proof of vaccination, filled in a form in advance and have had no problems, no testing once on board. They are free to hop on and off at every port without any checks... they went Reindeer sledging when they were in Tromsø and even enjoyed some snowball "fights" on the quay at one of the smaller ports... there's just no holding back these septuagenarians "girls who just want to have fun!"

It may be different for cruise ships. Fred Olsen's Bolette was due to dock in Bodø in Norway at 10.00 am this morning but, an hour and a half later, she's heading south further and further away from the port in fairly rough seas. It could be the weather. It does seem that she's moving in towards the more sheltered coastal water where the sea conditions are a bit better. Bolette is due to be in Ålesund in a couple of day's time and that's the general direction that she's heading. The current weather in the southern part of the Norwegian Sea is even rougher...all due to a storm force 10 in the North Atlantic.