SeaShark

1 hour ago, detroitlions said:

Nope $50 more than I paid I was going to pay the difference. Nothing new

So, are you stating that the Free @ Sea bundle that you originally booked is EXACTLY the same offer that is being marketed today? It has to be the exact same offer, regardless of what you accepted (for example, you could have delcined bogo airfare, but if bogo airfare isn't offered now it isn't the same offer...you can't simply compare the price alone).

38 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

But didn't the engineers design the ship in the first place?

Sure, but the ship the engineers designed was not the one that the opinionated folks had built.

1 hour ago, cruiseny4life said:

I'm with you! And your husband! Once prices settle down on Icon, I really want our first Royal Caribbean cruise to be on this ship. It's so whimsical looking to me! Look at this thread, apparently I'm a dreamer so it makes sense I'd appreciate the whimsical.

 

But, I also look at that ship, and how far out the top part extends over the "chassis." Yikes! It looks like it should just flop right over. But hey, I'm not one of those fancy pants maritime engineers. Since I'm waiting for a price reduction of about 95% on Icon, I suppose I'll be waiting awhile to sail it. Maybe by then I'll trust it to float upright. 

 

I wonder if there's an over/under in Vegas on Icon surviving a storm. 🤡

I think you'd be surprised at just how far the top part can extend over the chassis. Heck, you could even build an entire structure on only one side and STILL maintain level and balance.

Those fancy pants maritime engineers know far more than they are given credit for on these forums.

Of course, they don't have a pool, or a place for loungers, but they do have once heck of an airport.

1 hour ago, bjlaac said:

We are emerald on NCL but since the start of covid in 2019 have just started to sail on NCL again in 2023.  We have been cruising routinely but just not on NCL for a number of reasons which are irrelevant to my question.  Typically we sail in the winter months, December through February out of New York.  We were going to book cruises for 2025 and noticed that except for a cruise here and there, NCL has no routine sailings during the winter from NY, the same holds true for 2026.

 

Gone are the routine 10 day cruises in December, January February and March and the same holds true for 2026.

 

MSC and RCCL seem to have a thriving NY winter business  yet NCL is disappearing, anyone know what's going on?

First, "emerald on NCL"? Sorry, but there is no such thing as "emerald on NCL", and even if there were, it likely wouldn't be relevant to your question.

Second, "cruising routinely but just not on NCL" actually IS relevant to your question. It is, of course, a business, and must cater to the supply and demand of the market. When people choose "not on NCL", the demand goes down and the line leaves for greener pastures. Thus you lose the option to cruise them from that port.

In short, NCL can make $x by sailing out of NY in the winter, and $y by sailing elsewhere in the winter. Obviously, in this case, $y > $x.

1 hour ago, Travelling2Some said:

I'm not a very trusting person and my husband is very keen to sail on the Icon of the Seas.  I've talked him into waiting at least six months to make sure it can survive rough seas.  Just looking at all that weight on the top decks makes me wonder when the pursuit of profit will result in a disaster.  Seems to me that RCI was lucky they didn't loose the Anthem a few years ago in a storm.  Had that storm been a little worse???

Scary. But what about the weight of all of the stuff on the lower decks? The stuff you can't easily see like engines, generators, laundry machinery, refrigeration units, fuel tanks, pumps, stores, ballast tanks, etc?

1 hour ago, QuestionEverything said:

How do you know that?

How do you not? The inference is so clear I'm surprised that Captain Obvious didn't announce it.

Yes, the premium and luxury brands (interesting that in your post you capitalize premium and luxury, but use small letters on mass market) do not have this "overt caste system", mainly because it comes built in to the premium and luxury concept...the poors have already been excluded.

5 minutes ago, Sailing12Away said:

The point though is for the dreamers to come up with the ideas, and the realists to find a way to take that idea and find a practical way to make it happen. Obviously you can't have an entire deck of water... so the engineers take the idea and find a way that can work while maintaining the spirit of the original idea.

 

When pure engineers do design it's boring and cookie cutter. When crazy people on the internet do design the ship will sink. Hence the need for both to collaborate for the happy medium.

While I do see the point you are trying to make, you have to understand that it only holds water (pardon the pun) where the Venn Diagram of marine engineers and people who have cruises are mutually exclusive. The is zero evidence that this is the case, and I think that even considering it is a fool's errand. 

Would be very interesting for sure, but I think they'd get a better deal on Billboards right now.

That said, if it were up to me, NCL would be getting the rights to Spam A Lot.

29 minutes ago, Sailing12Away said:

I thought we were dropping the practical engineering approach and going strictly off of 'fun to have' regardless of 'practical' or realistic?

That certainly would be "convenient", but giving into that temptation is simply admitting that experienced cruisers really can't design a ship.

I thought this was a realistic discussion, if it is fantasy, then it belongs in the Floataway Lounge.

9 minutes ago, Sailing12Away said:

Looking at images of the Epic main pool area since I'll be hopping onboard next month. Not many loungers to be found in that water fountain areas between the pools. My funky design would be to invert those 2 pools so they're "up" and not "in", and the teal areas around them would be the lazy river to sit and float around. 

 

Folks that want loungers for the sun can have a deck above the pool area that wraps front to back and doubles as a walking/running track.

 

They missed the mark with Aqua - should have been completely focused on pools and water activities. Hidden grottos, wild water slides, indoor pools, outdoor pools, mega jacuzzis, swim up pool bars. Then they could have gone a different direction for whatever the next one is and focus on crazy adventurous stuff like the race cars, ropes courses, true lap pools, big gym & spa stuff for folks that like that sort of stuff. Make little niche ships specific for the target audience they're going after rather than a mediocre half assed attempt to please all. 

Maybe you should ask @chengkp75 to explain the free surface effect of water before you . . . go off the deep end.

13 minutes ago, Travelling2Some said:

The earliest posts did not seem to understand that this is supposed to be a fun fantasy. 

That is because those early posts came from people who realizes that it really isn't about fantasy, but it comes from an attempt to show that you don't need to be a trained marine engineer to design a cruise ship....experienced cruisers can also present realistic, practical, and popular design ideas based in reality just as good as those from the engineers...if not better.

11 minutes ago, UKstages said:

well, once again, no cruise line is asking a bunch of experienced cruisers to design a cruise ship. what enlightened and progressive cruise lines do is solicit guest feedback to gain insight, test ideas and see if what they thought was so is in fact so. then their team of professionals will set about to design the ship, perhaps incorporating some of those ideas, perhaps not.

 

professional maritime engineers don't really enter into the equation. if you let "professional maritime engineers" design a ship, you'd get a ship that would probably run efficiently but would not get very good reviews for its restaurants, public spaces or amenities.

 

this idea that professionals somehow know better has limits. professionals know how to get the ship built; they don't necessarily know everything the ship should have. 

 

professional architects, chiefly men,  have designed broadway theatres for more than a hundred and twenty years.  and that's all well and good... until you have to go to the bathroom. the theatres were built with small bathrooms and the bathrooms for both men and women were the same size. anybody who has actually gone to the theatre in new york knows why that was a really bad idea, thought up, as it happens, by the professionals. it's only in the last twenty years or so that theatre owners responded to customer feedback and changed the design of modern theatres to include more restrooms and double or more the number for women.

 

those same theatres.. the ones built by architects, without input from actors or producers or directors or scenic designers or playwrights... they also have inadequate backstage facilities, dressing rooms, fly space and places to store scenery when not in use. that's what happens when professionals do something without asking for advice from the intended end user of their product.

 

there's a hotel in las vegas built by professionals that was designed in such a way that it created a "death ray" caused by the sun bouncing off its curved structure.  guests trying to sunbathe by the pool got severe burns, with the temperature hovering at a balmy 108 degrees, 20 to 25 degrees higher than the actual temperature. the same architect, a professional, made this mistake twice... he built another building in london with the very same defect.

 

that's what happens when professionals are allowed to do what they do in a vaccum.

 

Problem is that your position depends on there being no intersection in the Venn Diagram of "experienced cruisers" and "marine architects". Which is, IMHO, a shaky position that is likely to be totally false. How can you even allege that the design occurs in a vaccum?

5 hours ago, cruiseny4life said:

Thanks for sharing your opinion. I'll take three sources (I'll grant you one is NCL) over a nothingburger.  🍔 YUM!

 

Not really sure why you're talking about some random dude that ought to be in jail, but ok! 

Telling tales out of school with no push back or research isn't a "source" for anything unless you gullible. You can make up all the "sources" you want, still doesn't explain the discrepancy in the time line.

And, "not really sure why". Seriously? That says far more about your lack of understanding. Maybe you should become "really sure why" before spouting. Some random dude and his 50+ sources...LOL.

10 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

Sigh....

 

More news, this time straight from the grandpappy's company's mouth...well fingers as it was typed. 

 

https://www.ncl.com/travel-blog/things-you-didnt-know-about-norwegians-race-tracks

 

Another from the ship's bow:

 

https://www.ncl.com/travel-blog/alex-vega-the-auto-firm-norwegian-bliss-race-cars-video

 

And Time Magazine...is it a magazine anymore or just time.com? 

 

https://time.com/collection/worlds-greatest-places-2018/5366745/norwegian-bliss-cruise-ship/

 

I know, I know...that's still not enough since it didn't come from an orangutan's mouth. 

That is what happens when you just re-publish what you are fed instead of investgating and verifying the facts of a story. NCL buys ads, media company publishes puff piece full of unquestioned "stories". Still doesn't explain the timeline. You'll have a hard task do debunk that.

On a related note, the DOJ in a court filing is now saying Hunter's laptop is legit and they knew it the whole time. Gotta wonder though about the 50+ experts who said it was russian disinformation. I guess you can't believe everything you read.

10 minutes ago, luv2kroooz said:

I mean I understand DelRio's grandkids were the inspiration for the innovative GoKarts.....

While FDR may have grandkids, and while those grandkids may love gokarts, I seriously doubt that your statement is true. 

Consider: First NCL ship with gokarts was the Norwegian Bliss, which was ordered in 2014...BEFORE FDR was a part of NCLH.

That aside, I was only pointing out that it can't simply be assumed that the ship designers have no cruise experience of their own. This has nothing to do with FDR, his decendants, or gokarts.

44 minutes ago, yakcruiser said:

 Not to worry though, NCL will not listen to anybody who has actually cruised before and will use the same professionals who designed the Prima/Viva to design their next class of ship.

The fly in the ointment here is that, for this statement to be valid, the professional ship designers would have to have ZERO cruise experience. Would that be something that is a known fact, or are we simply throwing out wild guesses as to whether or not they have cruise experience of their own?

5 hours ago, dbrown84 said:

I'm so sorry that my grammar isn't up to your level..... You don't switch keys with the child.  You go to guest services and have them create extra keys.  You happy now???

Sure, since switching keys (A gets B's key and B gets A's Key) and get additional keys (A has their key and B's key and B has their key and A's key) are just grammatical variations. Gawd forbid you have to admit you erred. 

6 hours ago, mjkacmom said:

You don’t switch keys, additional copies of the keys that only open door are given to the family. I’ve read countless posts like this on CC.

Sorry, wrong poster...I wasn't the one who suggested "switching keys". However I now understand that was just a grammar issue. But I assume that you already knew that.

3 hours ago, mjkacmom said:

You literally have no idea what you are talking about. NCL (and the other lines) will instruct you to put an adult in each cabin, and then tell you to go to guest services to get the extra cabin keys (they will mark them with permanent marker so you can tell them apart). Do you even cruise with children? This is very common knowledge.

Hmmm...if it was "very common knowledge" it wouldn't need to be posted here as everyone would already be aware.

2 hours ago, dbrown84 said:

well, you have first hand experience, so you definitely know better than me. Their policy says it should be allowed, which is what I was going by.  Oh well, like you said you can just switch keys once onboard

"Switch keys" is a great idea until the adult goes to get a drink and all they are carrying is a key card of an under 21 guest...

17 minutes ago, bluefish17 said:

I think lots of cruisers have valid opinions about all sorts of things. But if you disagree with someone, there is no excuse to mock them about not being a marine design engineer or whatever. Accept that there are more valid opinions than just yours and say something constructive.

 

Perhaps there might be less "mocking" if people wouldn't present their opinions/ideas/desires as absolute fact. We all know that ships are designed by educated marine engineers, so if you somehow feel that your education/experience somehow trumps theirs, it is simply helpful to explain just why that is. Easy to say "triple the size of the pool" when you don't have to explain where that large pool would go. Perhaps some constructive criticism with some viable and well thought out alternatives and implementation plans would be better received.

It's akin to saying "we can simply eliminate homelessness by giving all of the homeless a house". Easy to say, but not so much when you dive into the nuts and bolts of it...

39 minutes ago, luv2kroooz said:

A pool deck like the Jewel class.

Functional with multiple pools, spacious, and plenty of deck chairs for all who may want them.

Oh please. Show me one post where someone described the pool deck on a Jewel class ship as being "spacious" or with "plenty of deck chairs". 🙄

13 minutes ago, UKstages said:

 

the people who deigned the apollo 13 spacecraft designed spaceships for a living.

 

the people who designed the boeing 737 max designed airplanes for a living.

 

and, needless to say, the people who designed the prima and the viva are professionals, who design and build and market cruise ships for a living. 

 

sometimes they get it ridiculously right. and sometimes they get it horribly wrong. and sometimes their product is used in unique and novel ways that the designers had not anticipated - or there are unpredictable catastrophic flaws in infrastructure or design - and course correction is necessary. and sometimes the designers and/or execs are so blind to their own vision, and so removed from the actual user experience that they make terrible unforgivable mistakes.

 

the people who created "new coke" designed and marketed soft drinks for a living.

 

the people at kodak, who popularized personal photography and who actually designed the first digital camera, thought it would destroy their company if they didn't protect what they considered their core business... film. and so they abandoned digital photography. they lost huge revenue share and had to file for bankruptcy.

 

most product failures occur because the business doesn't get feedback from its end users before they launch a new product and/or they are resistant to feedback and course correction after they do. management tends to live in a vacuum, shielded from the real world and the actual customer experience.

 

you think harry sommer ever walked around the indulge food hall for 45 minutes looking for a table?

 

 

you do realize we're not designers or architects, right? most of us can't accept your heartfelt and well-meaning challenge simply because we can't draw or draft blueprints. we also have no formal relationship with NCL that would permit such a project. nor would NCL accept designs from us.

 

but you don't need to be an architect or ship designer to know there are too few seats in the indulge food hall and that the improv can only fit about 70 people on a ship of 3000 and that there is soot on many deck chairs and that the outdoor space is unusable in cold weather climates and that there are disturbing and persistent noises coming from within the walls of many cabins. and some here on cruise critic and other social media sites have provided that feedback to NCL and also done so in their post-cruise surveys. that's all we can do... it's not our job to design new deck plans or new ships.

 

what architects do is take that customer feedback and then set about to see if there is a better way to achieve many of the same goals they originally set, while responding to overwhelming customer feedback that may influence their subsequent designs... all while meeting the revenue and budget goals of the cruise line. that's why there is no starbucks in the indulge food hall on the viva!  not because a designer decided he or she had made a mistake... but because hundreds or thousands of guests told NCL that they couldn't find a seat when attempting to dine in indulge.

 

so, yes, i guess you could say that we do know better.

Except that I wouldn't. Simply because, as noted, you don't.

If you can't alter a set of already published deck plans (knows everything about ship design but can't edit a jpg using Microsoft Paint...smh), then expound on your example. On a ship of 3,000 what exactly is the correct number of seats for the Improv?

7 hours ago, luv2kroooz said:

Well, it's the prevailing logic in the industry, not just on cruisecritic. The lounges are woefully undersized as has been confirmed over and again by hundreds of thousands of passengers. Most passengers understandably don't want to wait in lines for an hour to get one of seventy seats in a lounge or comedy club to watch a show that lasts for an hour. It's a known design flaw. So maybe they should be more practical in their ship designs. Their goal sounded good in theory, but didn't play out in practice. They'll get it fixed in future builds.

7 hours ago, Tenderpaw said:

 

My issue isn't the ships overall size, but rather the public venues are too small.  All of them are too small for the number of passenger.  And arriving super early to get one of the limited seats isn't something we should have to do on vacation. 

 

I said make the ship bigger as a solution.  But another solution would be to have a couple of less revenue producing areas so that the ship could have 2 large public venues for events and entertainment.  YOu know, like most ships have.

5 hours ago, UKstages said:

it's not that the prima has a few things wrong with it, a few things badly designed and/or executed, a few careless and thoughtless experiments.

 

no, no, no... it's the convergence of so many bad ideas gone wrong all at once.  it's the cumulative effect of so many of these things together with one of the poorest management teams at sea... it's truly terrifying to sail onboard the prima... a comedy of terrors.

 

speaking of comedy, how's that improv club working out for them?

 

you know, the one that is too small for comedy, so they use it for trivia, singles meetups, lectures and art auctions?

Given how sure you all are, perhaps your up to a challenge (yeah, right). Go get the deck plans for Prima/Viva and edit/redraw them to where they'd represent YOUR idea of what the professionals got wrong and how you'd fix it. Then come back an upload your plans. 

5 hours ago, luv2kroooz said:

So true. Some just can't twist their mind around the notion that NCL could possibly get anything wrong.

No doubt very similar to the armchair cruise critics who are 100% self-assured that they know better than the people who design ships for a living.

2 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

 . . . or the ones that want a bigger pool?

Ah yes, the "bigger pool" advocates. They are my favorite. Right up there with the "more deck chairs" crowd.

What they always gloss over is that the bigger pool means less room for deck chairs, and more deck chairs means less room for a pool.

Not to mention that they (apparently) ignore the free surface effect.

So after building seven mega-ships (Epic thru Encore), NCL decides to build some medium size ships to fill the gap between the 2000 passenger ships and the mega-ships...something that can go to more ports, especially those without Icon of the Seas sized berths, and the prevailing logic on CC is "You know, these new ships would be great if they just made them BIGGER". 🙄