KeithJenner

Does there need to be a conclusion? We are just discussing. Honestly, if you don’t like the discussion then just move on.

Yes, we are still discussing a subject relating to NCL on a NCL forum. Who’d have thought it. 🙂 I will continue to discuss this, and to cruise and pay the tax as necessary thanks. If you don’t like the discussion then maybe you should just move on to one you like better.

Agreed. I wonder whether this is due to a difference in rules between countries. Previously the VAT charged has mainly been by Spain, whereas this on (I believe although the threads are getting a bit confused in my mind) is from France. Maybe in France you have to charge the VAT on the service charge but you don’t in Spain. Im speculating now though.

I mean if the service charge is mandatory for the customer to pay. With beverages on NCL they automatically charge the 20% service charge on the drinks and the customer can’t opt out of that. By UK law this would mean that VAT has to be charged on the service charge. Of course the customer isn’t actually paying that service charge because it is included in the package, but then we are going back to the original argument as to whether any of it is VATable. In my view, if the drinks are then so is the service charge (if the rules in this are the same in France as the UK).

We just upgraded using my wife's account (I used mine to upgrade from a balcony to Club Balcony on the Viva a while ago). This time we booked an Oceanview for an 11 night cruise on the Dawn and upgraded to a balcony. I requested a room on decks 9 or 10 (so there is nothing above or below us), and we got deck 10. The only slight disappointment is that we have a hull balcony. Not a major problem, but a more open one would have been preferable. The cost of the Oceanview was around £1,000 less than the balcony would have been to book, so overall very happy.

It isn’t quite that bad. The VAT is 20% on the cost of the drinks plus 10% on the service charge of 20%. This totals 22%, so if your cost is correct then the VAT would be $600.60

Obviously rules can vary between companies, but this is certainly the correct application of the rules in some countries. In the UK, for example, you have to charge VAT on a service charge if it is mandatory (as in this case). However, it should be charged at the same rate as the goods supplied, so they may even be undercharging the VAT. The employee paying Income Tax on the amount doesn't make any difference. All workers pay Income Tax on the wages that they are paid and VAT is charged on the added value due to the work that they do.

I don't think that there is any suggestion at the moment that the VAT will apply on the Breakaway itinerary. I expect your VAT bill to be zero. On our one next year, I am currently expecting to have to pay whilst in port a few times. No problem at all, and we will probably go for the lower cost items whilst in port. The issue comes with Free at Sea Plus and a cruise where VAT is charged all the time. Just on Sparkling Water, rather than tap water (we can easily get through 5-6 bottles a day) then it is nearly $10 a day in VAT. Add, say 5 wines each at $25-$30 rather than $10-15 and we have added another $20-30 a day more than the cheaper wine. I enjoy being able to select the nicer wine, but that sort of extra cost would put me off ordering them, which makes the decision to upgrade less clear. The $150 of VAT that you calculated would then become maybe $400-500. I'm not commenting on who to blame. I have my views, but I've commented here just to give an example of how the impact of the VAT (regardless of whose fault it is) does become an issue when making these decisions.

They don't particularly police the ages at these venues, and a 17 year old sitting at a table would probably be fine. I have seen the performers at Howl noticeably tone down their show a bit when there are younger people in the venue (before the cut off time). On one occasion I remember them making some comments about youngsters in the venue after that time. I don't think they were asked to leave, but it was clear that their presence was a problem. Generally it isn't a problem, and at the age of the OP's daughter I don't think anyone would even notice unless she looks young for her age.

I don't think that they are adding VAT onto VAT. It looks to me like they are charging VAT on the drinks (20% of £17) and also on the Service Charge (10% of £3.40). If there is an error then maybe the VAT on the Service Charge should be at the same rate as the supply. That is the rule in the UK anyway.

Upgrading the beverage package costs about £40-50 a day cruise for the two of us. That is the top end of what we think it is worth for us. By my reckoning, the extra tax we would pay by getting the drinks that this package includes, rather than the ones included in the standard package would be around £25 a day. That is around half the cost of a package, which was borderline worth it to start with. Yes, I can afford to pay that, but we all make decisions about whether things are worth it to us. We can't buy everything. This is a significant difference on the cost of the package, and would make a difference on whether or not we get it. That really isn't complicated reasoning. I'm not annoyed with paying extra. I have done quite a few NCL cruises where the tax is paid on the entire cruise (at least 5 of them, before the drink package existed, so we all had to just pay the tax), but I knew in advance for certain that the tax would be payable. The issue here for me is the uncertainty, which makes planning a problem. If I knew that we would be paying the tax then I wouldn't upgrade.

I agree that this is unlikely to be make or break about going on the cruise, but there are other elements involved in planning and budgeting. For example, we usually take Free at Sea Plus, although the cost of it is already close to the maximum that we think it is worth paying for the package. As a result of having free at sea, we get through quite a lot of bottled water, and are generally drinking $25-$30 glasses of wine rather than $10-$15. The extra VAT that would be payable on those drinks for an entire cruise is almost certainly enough to push that package into a "not worth it" price. We are doing the Lisbon to Rome trip next Spring, which is currently not one where the tax is charged. It would be annoying to pay for the upgraded package and then find that something changes which means that we wouldn't have upgraded had we known.

There are a few venues that are over 18's only, but the vast majority of places are open to all. Spice H2O (area at the rear of the ship) is over 18's only until 7pm. Bliss night club is over 18's after 11pm, and Howl at the Moon (duelling pianos) is also over 18's after 11pm (they perform from 9pm-1am). Other than that, and apparently the Spa, you are fine.

It totally depends on what you will be doing. Under 18s can do lots onboard, but it could be that the thing they particularly want to do is restricted (ie the spa). We sailed for many years with our son who was under 18 and there were very few things that we wanted to do that he would have been excluded from. However, one thing that he (and all of us) would have hated would be being dragged to the spa, so it shows that everyone is different.

I don’t recall exactly, but there were plenty.

When you book a cruise you don’t get charged $x for port 1 and $y for port 2. They estimate what the total port charges will be for the entire cruise, divide that by the expected number of passengers and charge you for that estimated amount. When you actually cruise the amount that it costs per passenger will vary based on the actual port charge and the number of passengers. For some individual ports the charge may be higher than they estimated and for some others it may be lower. Obviously, if you didn’t actually visit that port then it will be zero (unless there are cancellation or no show fees I suppose, I have no idea whether that happens). If the net difference means that customers were undercharged then NCL will swallow that difference. If they charged too much then often (I suspect not always) they will refund. For example, we got a $22 per passenger refund on our last cruise despite getting to every port. I believe that was due to port charges. What they won’t do is refund for an overcharge at one port if there are undercharges at others. They look at the total for the cruise. As they billed you for the total rather than per port they are quite entitled to do that.

Yes, 100% sure. I’m an accountant and I have been dealing with VAT as part of my job for about 30 years.

This is how it works: Somone produces some raw material and sells it on the a manufacturer for £100. They add on £20 VAT which they pay to the government. The manufacturer pays them the £20 VAT, but then claims that back off the government. Total net VAT paid to date is zero. The manufacturer does some work to the product and sells it to a retailer for £200. They charge the retailer £200 plus £40 VAT, and they pay the VAT to the government. The retailer pays them that £40 and claims it back off the government. Total net VAT paid to date is zero. The retailer then sells it on to the end customer for £300 plus £60 VAT. They pay that VAT to the government. The end customer pays that £60 to them and can't claim it back. Total VAT paid to date is £60, all of which was paid by the end user.

This comes up fairly regularly. As stated above, these things depend on the circumstances. I have had port fees refunded in these situations and on other cruises not got the refund. We have also received refunds when all ports were costed, I assume because they had overestimated the fees. I agree, the driver seems to be whether they have got the fees covered. If they haven’t then NCL seems not to refund, but to make up the fees that had been under collected with the ones from the cancelled port.

Yes, but you said you are on a cruise where you are being charged for the entire cruise, even when not in port. Unless this is something very different then I take that to mean that you are on an all EU cruise, probably originating in Spain. That is why you are being charged in Italy. However, a Rome to Tel Aviv cruise cannot, by definition, be an all EU cruise so any VAT charge will be made by individual ports and there is no recent history that I am aware of (including visiting the ports myself this month) of Italian or Greek ports charging the VAT.

On a Rome to Tel Aviv cruise you certainly won’t be charged for the whole of the cruise. That only happens if the cruise doesn’t leave the EU, which is impossible on an itinerary that ends outside the EU. You may be charged whilst in some ports, but they haven’t been charging in Italy or Greece recently, so you should be ok there at least.

The merchants don’t pay the tax. Ultimately it is all paid by the final consumer. The tax gets paid but also reclaimed throughout the process until it gets to the end customer who pays the full amount without being able to reclaim it (assuming that they are residents of the country where it is implemented).

The implementing government will be France, not the EU, The VAT goes to them.

I wasn’t referring to either of the OPs. I was referring to the specific situation which the person I was responding to asked about (So a non-refundable deposit isn’t returned even if the cruise line cancels the cruise?) I thought that was quite clear as I quoted that question before my reply. Not sure how I could have been clearer.

The post I was responding to specifically referred to the cruise line cancelling, in which case they do refund the deposits (as happened in my case).