How the jones law pertains to cruising

[DonnasMom&Dad]

Here is some reading, to confuse you, about the "Jones Law", as it pertains to cruising.

 

http://www.sealetter.com/Oct-99/alancol.html

 

 

http://www.cruiseco.com/Resources/jones_act.htm

 

Cato :confused: :eek: :D :)

[njhorseman]

It's not the "Jones Law", it's the Jones Act, and it's not the Jones Act that affects cruise ship passengers to begin with, it's the Passenger Vessel Services Act. It's not confusing at all.

[Traveler353]

It's not the "Jones Law", it's the Jones Act, and it's not the Jones Act that affects cruise ship passengers to begin with, it's the Passenger Vessel Services Act. It's not confusing at all.

 

Ditto!

[DonnasMom&Dad]

It's not the "Jones Law", it's the Jones Act, and it's not the Jones Act that affects cruise ship passengers to begin with, it's the Passenger Vessel Services Act. It's not confusing at all.

 

Picky-scmicky, does it really matter what it,s called, it has to do with shipping, whether it's goods, livestock or people on a cruise, to or from one place or another, it's information that I wasn't aware of, until someone south of the 49th brought to my attention, so I thought I'd pass it on as one informant was not too sure, of what it was about.

 

Sorry if I offended anyone, for bringing it to the forefront.

 

Cato :confused: :)

[DonnasMom&Dad]

It's not the "Jones Law", it's the Jones Act, and it's not the Jones Act that affects cruise ship passengers to begin with, it's the Passenger Vessel Services Act. It's not confusing at all.

 

Picky-schmicky, does it really matter what it,s called, it has to do with shipping, whether it's goods, livestock or people on a cruise, to or from one place or another, it's information that I wasn't aware of, until someone south of the 49th brought to my attention, so I thought I'd pass it on as one informant was not too sure, of what it was about.

 

Sorry if I offended anyone, for bringing it to the forefront.

 

Cato :confused: :)

[okgirl]

Don't be offended. You seem to be pretty new to the boards and not sure how cruise savey you are.

 

This issue is discussed frequently here on CC so most every one is familiar with the conditions. It has little impact on closed loop cruises as all of them visit the required distant foreign port.

[njhorseman]

Don't be offended. You seem to be pretty new to the boards and not sure how cruise savey you are.

 

This issue is discussed frequently here on CC so most every one is familiar with the conditions. It has little impact on closed loop cruises as all of them visit the required distant foreign port.

 

That's not correct either. Closed loop cruises are not required to visit a distant foreign port...they are required to visit a nearby foreign port. Closed loop cruises usually do not call on distant foreign ports, as the nearby Caribbean islands, Bermuda, the Bahamas, Mexico and Canada are not distant foreign ports. Open jaw cruises are required to visit a distant foreign port. The nearest ports that qualify as distant foreign ports for cruises departing from the east coast are the ABC islands...Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao, and east coast respositioning cruises commonly call on one or more of those islands and/or Colombia.

[njhorseman]

Picky-scmicky' date=' does it really matter what it,s called, it has to do with shipping, whether it's goods, livestock or people on a cruise, to or from one place or another, it's information that I wasn't aware of, until someone south of the 49th brought to my attention, so I thought I'd pass it on as one informant was not too sure, of what it was about.[/b']

 

Sorry if I offended anyone, for bringing it to the forefront.

 

Cato :confused: :)

 

Bringing the topic up isn't offensive. The way you did it was of little or no benefit to anyone needing an education on the topic...and educating people would include using the proper name for the law.

[janice4559]

My first encounter with the Jones Act involved the NCL Hawaii cruises roundtrip out of Honolulu. We had to waste a day and a half getting to Fanning Island and the same coming back just to satisfy the Jones Act conditions. Glad they got that fixed with the POA schedule today.

[njhorseman]

My first encounter with the Jones Act involved the NCL Hawaii cruises roundtrip out of Honolulu. We had to waste a day and a half getting to Fanning Island and the same coming back just to satisfy the Jones Act conditions. Glad they got that fixed with the POA schedule today.

 

Nothing about the law was changed or "got fixed". The POA is a US-flagged ship, and is therefore not subject to the restrictions imposed by the Jones Act, Passenger Vessel Services Act, or similar laws.

[BIG_Steve]

Don't sweat it "Dad" everyone refers to the passenger vessels law as "The Jones act." Much in the same way everyone knows you mean Table tennis if you ask about "Ping-pong."

[DonnasMom&Dad]

Bringing the topic up isn't offensive. The way you did it was of little or no benefit to anyone needing an education on the topic...and educating people would include using the proper name for the law.

 

 

Let's stop the confusion.

 

Ignorance of a law, act or rule, is no excuse, whether you agree with it or not, it must have been implemented for a reason, even you can't understand the reason for it. After researching the Jones Law Act and Section 27 of the Merchant Marine Act of 1920 (46 U.S.C. 883; 19 CFR 4.80 and 4.80b). And understanding it as it pertains to goods and livestock, I can't understand why it pertains to people, by restricting the free movement of law abiding people.

 

I have therefor decided to cancel my one night hop, and only think about all the nice people, I will not be able to meet, and I apologize to everyone for the stir I caused, but then a lot of us learned something we didn't know before, especially someone like me, from north of the 49th.

 

With that I hope, that someday, I'll meet some of you on another cruise.

 

Cato :) :D

catolga28@shaw.ca

[cherylandtk]

Cato,

I see from your other posts on other forums that you tried to book two Golden Princess cruises back to back and fell afoul of the PVSA (aka Jones, albeit incorrectly). Your situation is not new, but every year this happens, so it was worthwhile for you to post in case someone else did not know of this rule. I am sorry that some people chose to answer you in a way that came off as arrogant and less than helpful.

 

The issue is not the name of the law, or whether it was 'fixed' or not, or whether some people would prefer to split hairs by microscope. Rather the issue is posting something that is helpful to our fellow cruisers. So thank you for bringing to the attention of those who did not already know.

[greatam]

Ignorance of a law' date=' act or rule, is no excuse, whether you agree with it or not, it must have been implemented for a reason, even you can't understand the reason for it. After researching the Jones Law Act and Section 27 of the Merchant Marine Act of 1920 (46 U.S.C. 883; 19 CFR 4.80 and 4.80b). And understanding it as it pertains to goods and livestock, I can't understand why it pertains to people, by restricting the free movement of law abiding people.

 

 

NOT to be nit picky BUT you researched the law-JONES ACT-which refers to "property". The PVSA (Passenger Vessel Services Act) is the old cabotage law that legislates PEOPLE. Two DIFFERENT laws (although piggybacked on one another through legalese), enacted a long, long time ago, still in effect. But the confusion comes in when you refer to the Jones Act, which has nothing to do with PEOPLE.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886

[njhorseman]

Cato,

I see from your other posts on other forums that you tried to book two Golden Princess cruises back to back and fell afoul of the PVSA (aka Jones, albeit incorrectly). Your situation is not new, but every year this happens, so it was worthwhile for you to post in case someone else did not know of this rule. I am sorry that some people chose to answer you in a way that came off as arrogant and less than helpful.

 

The issue is not the name of the law, or whether it was 'fixed' or not, or whether some people would prefer to split hairs by microscope. Rather the issue is posting something that is helpful to our fellow cruisers. So thank you for bringing to the attention of those who did not already know.

 

You might want to check this poster's recent history beyond this topic. A few weeks ago he started a thread on tipping(which was eventually locked by the moderator), where he posed his "opinion" in a way that was certain to provoke trouble, and after starting the thread he made no further posts on it...setting the whole thread up as a classic "drive by shooting." In my opinion this thread on the "Jones Law" too was posed in a way that was not intended to educate, enlighten or promote a legitimate discussion, but rather to start a fire...probaly because of his own recent experience.

[cherylandtk]

I saw that tipping thread, and IMO the initial post itself was not any more certain to provoke trouble than any other thread on tipping. Most of them crash and burn. YMMV.

 

I was trying here to give the benefit of the doubt and allow that every year around this time there is someone new who learns of the coastwise transportation laws, and that is the recent experience of the OP and should be the point of this thread.

[smeyer418]

ok who is Jones and why is he so picky? Is it Davey Jones? or is it spelled Davy Jones? Why is an apple not an orange since its still fruit? and of course if tin whistles are made of tin what are fog horns made from?

It does matter whether its the Jones Act or the PVSA cause one applies to cargo and the other to people. They also spell out where a ship can be built and how much repairs can take place outside the US. So just because a common usage is wrong, it does help to correct it so the person can look up the right law. You may not like the law but its really not about to change. Right now tugs and ferries and other ships need to be US crewed, given the current climate in the US, unions or no, do you really think they will pass a law to allow other jobs to go to non-US nationals?

[DonnasMom&Dad]

Cato,

I see from your other posts on other forums that you tried to book two Golden Princess cruises back to back and fell afoul of the PVSA (aka Jones, albeit incorrectly). Your situation is not new, but every year this happens, so it was worthwhile for you to post in case someone else did not know of this rule. I am sorry that some people chose to answer you in a way that came off as arrogant and less than helpful.

 

The issue is not the name of the law, or whether it was 'fixed' or not, or whether some people would prefer to split hairs by microscope. Rather the issue is posting something that is helpful to our fellow cruisers. So thank you for bringing to the attention of those who did not already know.

 

Thank you for your support !

 

Cato :) :)

<catolga28@shaw.ca>

[odblnt]

My first encounter with the Jones Act involved the NCL Hawaii cruises roundtrip out of Honolulu. We had to waste a day and a half getting to Fanning Island and the same coming back just to satisfy the Jones Act conditions. Glad they got that fixed with the POA schedule today.

 

Yes, but the thing is, they were doing that route before NCL-America came into place and were using an international crew, so they had to throw in the foreign port. NCLA uses American crew, so no foreign port requirement.

[Cruisin' Chick]

The cruise director (or whoever did the work for him) on our Hawaiian cruise used the wrong terminology on the newsletters to explain why it was so important not to miss sailaway on our cruise. It was referred to the Jones Act (most of the more knowledgeable onboard probably knew it was the PVSA), but the important thing was to know that passengers would incur a heavy duty fine if they didn't get on the ship in any of the ports, that they would be in violation of the PVSA.

 

Just a couple of years ago, we had a major thread about changes that NCLa was trying to get made to the PVSA to make it more difficult for cruiselines to sail on certain itineraries. But the changes were meant to keep cruiselines sailing round trips from the west coast to Hawaii to drop those itineraries as NCLA was claiming unfair competition for their Hawaiian cruises. Fortunately, the governors of Hawaii and California realized that dropping the RTs would severely impact the California ports as well as the Hawaiian ones, and got someone high up in the federal government (maybe VP Cheney) to help put the kibosh on changes. I was one of many regular people who commented on the Congressional record to oppose the changes.

 

It would be very informative if there was a place on CC that would list basic info such as the PVSA laws as that would help those who want to do an illegal booking to understand why they can't. But even if there was an area about this, newbies would need to know to check there.

[smeyer418]

...

 

Just a couple of years ago' date=' we had a major thread about changes that NCLa was trying to get made to the PVSA to make it more difficult for cruiselines to sail on certain itineraries. But the changes were meant to keep cruiselines sailing round trips from the west coast to Hawaii to drop those itineraries as NCLA was claiming unfair competition for their Hawaiian cruises. Fortunately, the governors of Hawaii and California realized that dropping the RTs would severely impact the California ports as well as the Hawaiian ones, and got someone high up in the federal government (maybe VP Cheney) to help put the kibosh on changes. I was one of many regular people who commented on the Congressional record to oppose the changes.

....[/quote']

 

The major issue was what are called "drive by stops" in Mexico where passengers did not even have the opportunity to get off. These technical stops have been stopped and now the passengers can get off. For the most part NCL America did complain about these and the Federal Maritime Administration was the one that asked that the rules be changed.

The problem with the proposed change is that it would have effected trips to Alaska and almost all on the East Coast as well(never ask a bureaucrat for change you never know what will come out)... The number of rt from the West coast to Hawaii is so small it would not have severely impacted the ports but the change was so broad as it would have effected EVERY non US flagged ship leaving from the US(the change would have required that 50% of the port time be in foreign ports for a foreign flagged ship leaving from the US).... so all the trips from the US except for perhaps Bermuda, the Caribbean, and Mexico would have required significant retooling.

[Cruisin' Chick]

If it was just a matter of "drive by" porting, that could have been easily addressed without all the drama of trying to revise a law that seems to many of us as quite archaic. Just tell Holland, Princess, Celebrity, whichever line that they need to have a port stay of so many hours...and leave it at that. Fortunately the changes weren't approved, but was it really necessary to even try to push them through in such a bullying way?

[smeyer418]

If it was just a matter of "drive by" porting' date=' that could have been easily addressed without all the drama of trying to revise a law that seems to many of us as quite archaic. Just tell Holland, Princess, Celebrity, whichever line that they need to have a port stay of so many hours...and leave it at that. Fortunately the changes weren't approved, but was it really necessary to even try to push them through in such a bullying way?[/quote']

There was NO revision to the law attempted. It was a revision of the regulation. The regulations didn't specify the time in port or whether the passengers needed to get off. The FMA(or correctly the Federal Maritime Commission) is charged with promoting US flagged shipping. They asked Homeland security to issue a new regulation to stop the drive bys and encourage more US flagged ships. What came out of that was the proposed regulation...that would have effected more than the original problem but the attempt was to try to get more American flagged ships so they went overboard(so to speak). Unless the regulation specifies the number of hours they don't have a right to tell them how long to spend as they were following the letter of the regulation(although maybe not the spirit). In any case they stopped the drive bys and the need for the regulation has been given a low priority.

 

Please remember that the same "archaic" rule that prohibits non US flagged ships transporting people between two US ports also prohibits foreign flagged airlines from transporting passengers between two US airports(some foreign flagged airlines have code shares with US airlines and the US airlines transport within the US)...

[familycruzinnewbie]

As a Canadian - what am and what am I not allowed to do? Carnival call it the Jones Act for the US rule and Cabotage for Italy, so right or wrong when people come to look up the info on here, they would be looking for the Jone Act. At first reading of the info on their site, it sounds as if I board a cruise in Baltimore, I can't get off in Florida. But by debark I'm not sure if they mean I can't visit, I can visit, but can't miss getting back on or that I can't end my cruise there.

 

http://www.carnival.com/cms/faqs/default.aspx?icid=CC_Footer_88

[njhorseman]

As a Canadian - what am and what am I not allowed to do? Carnival call it the Jones Act for the US rule and Cabotage for Italy, so right or wrong when people come to look up the info on here, they would be looking for the Jone Act. At first reading of the info on their site, it sounds as if I board a cruise in Baltimore, I can't get off in Florida. But by debark I'm not sure if they mean I can't visit, I can visit, but can't miss getting back on or that I can't end my cruise there.

 

http://www.carnival.com/cms/faqs/default.aspx?icid=CC_Footer_88

 

 

Your nationality is irrelevant. The law applies to everyone, even Americans. Very simply, a foreign-flagged ship can't take on passengers in one US port and disembark them in a different US port unless the ship has called on a "distant foreign port" between embarkation and disembarkation. Yes you can get off the ship you boarded in Baltimore for the day when it makes a port call in Florida, but your cruise can't end in Florida.

 

Bermuda, Canada, the Bahamas, the nearby Caribbean Islands, Mexico, etc. are NOT "distant foreign ports" under the law.