Tipping

[RuthC]

So why can't mandatary charges be included in the upfront head line price and let tips be truly voluntary ?

"Tips" are truly voluntary, as those are the monies given in addition to the service charge.

"Mandatory charges" aren't truly "mandatory" as they can be adjusted.

They could, as you point out, be included in the upfront price. If they were, they would have to be higher than $11 per person per day because the travel agents would get part of the money back in commissions. HAL would also have corportate taxes to pay on their "income".

In the meantime, it is what it is. If you choose to sail a line which has service charges, then "When in Rome, ...".

[Randyk47]

They could, as you point out, be included in the upfront price. If they were, they would have to be higher than $11 per person per day because the travel agents would get part of the money back in commissions. HAL would also have corportate taxes to pay on their "income".

 

Excellent point about the commissions and income tax. I wonder if they could show it as an additional fee that was not subject to commission? That won't solve the tax problem though. Guess that just makes accounting too difficult or cumbersome.

[K2DangerGirl]

Excellent point about the commissions and income tax.

Agree about the commissions, but not about the income tax. If the charge is paid out to various crew members then it is also a business expense that can be deducted from revenue and the end result is no effect on net income. (Note that I personally have NO IDEA how HAL accounts for the HSC.)

[Corinium]

"Tips" are truly voluntary, as those are the monies given in addition to the service charge.

"Mandatory charges" aren't truly "mandatory" as they can be adjusted.

They could, as you point out, be included in the upfront price. If they were, they would have to be higher than $11 per person per day because the travel agents would get part of the money back in commissions. HAL would also have corportate taxes to pay on their "income".

In the meantime, it is what it is. If you choose to sail a line which has service charges, then "When in Rome, ...".

 

So it's all a tax dodge is it ?

 

When Hal cruises to Rome does it do as the Romans do .. I think not !

 

Ha-ha good game !

[m steve]

as I doubt if they pay US income tax unless they are a citizen. There are some rules affecting taxes if you remain outside the country for a period of time.

[Randyk47]

as I doubt if they pay US income tax unless they are a citizen. There are some rules affecting taxes if you remain outside the country for a period of time.

 

I don't think, at least I wasn't thinking, it's a case of personal income tax but more corporate tax and if HAL charged the hotel service fee up front would it be looked at as gross revenue. I assume there's a way for the accounting folks to handle that both to keep it from having commissions paid on it and from it adding to the corporate top line as the dollars go to the crew. Obviously other lines have figured that out.

[Mary Ellen]

So it's all a tax dodge is it ?

No. It means that, for the reasons RuthC cited, passengers pay $11 USD/day for the service charge rather than the $14+/day it would probably run if it were incorporated into the cruise fare.

[RuthC]

as I doubt if they pay US income tax unless they are a citizen.

I was speaking of corporate taxes, not personal income taxes.

Even if what was collected for service fees were entirely deductible, there would be a cost just keeping track of the accounting. HAL would have to collect more than the $11 per person just to break even.

[K2DangerGirl]

there would be a cost just keeping track of the accounting

I don't want to make this thread about the accounting, but there's already a cost of accounting for it; charging it to each passenger and distributing it to the appropriate crew. I don't know if HAL runs it through their revenue and expense or not but there wouldn't be a huge incremental cost to doing so.

[Corinium]

No. It means that, for the reasons RuthC cited, passengers pay $11 USD/day for the service charge rather than the $14+/day it would probably run if it were incorporated into the cruise fare.[/size]

 

So why not include the captain's and officer's wages in the service charge instead of the cruise fare, then we can save even more money ?

 

If service charge is mandatory and isn't a tip then at present it must be used to supplement some of the crews wages, but only those below a certain rank ?

But don't the senior crew provide a service also ?

 

Surely all of the wages are an expenditure on the business which should be covered in the upfront cruise fare regardless of TA commissions and taxes etc.

 

OK I'm being provocative but if you don't agree with me please explain what a service charge is, who it benefits and why it's justified.

 

Or is it only done so that the cruise line can save the guest approx 3 dollars a day ? I don't think so !

 

Ah-ah good game !

[RuthC]

Ah-ah good game !

When I'm in an area where tipping is not customary, I don't tip. I know that I am paying a higher price so that higher wages are paid. When I'm in an area where tipping is the custom, I do tip.

That's the way the "game" (as you call it) is played. You are free to play, or not, as you choose.

 

However, it does a disservice to the stewards who wait on you hand and foot if you stiff them from the service charge they so well earn. Again, your choice.

[skydancing]

At the risk of being "flamed" once again this subject has had numerous threads about it in the past.

 

As a Kiwi I personally find it offensive to HAVE to pay for something that as far as I am concerned should have been included in the actual cost of the fare.

 

I would have preferred to have known that the staff were paid proper wages as well and then it was my choice to tip for great or exceptional service to what I can actually afford.

 

It came as a shock to us to discover how much we have to pay in tips - for our culture that is way against the grain and we certainly do not expect tourists to New Zealand to tip anyone unless they give good service.

 

After being warned about drinks being "accidentally" spilt on us or our table because someone in the office on the ship would tell that we had declined to pay the $11 a day EACH (even worse) we have decided to concede defeat and pay it. It does not mean we agree with it but a case of having to.

 

I also find it intriguing to know how many person hours are spent dividing it up between the individuals - this has a cost to it as well. Does one presume that the shipping company takes that out of the tip before handing it out? It does raise a few questions for me anyway.

 

If you have already had a go at me in another thread about this please don't bother again. I just wanted to make my own point here.

[Corinium]

At the risk of being "flamed" once again this subject has had numerous threads about it in the past.

 

As a Kiwi I personally find it offensive to HAVE to pay for something that as far as I am concerned should have been included in the actual cost of the fare.

 

I would have preferred to have known that the staff were paid proper wages as well and then it was my choice to tip for great or exceptional service to what I can actually afford.

 

It came as a shock to us to discover how much we have to pay in tips - for our culture that is way against the grain and we certainly do not expect tourists to New Zealand to tip anyone unless they give good service.

 

After being warned about drinks being "accidentally" spilt on us or our table because someone in the office on the ship would tell that we had declined to pay the $11 a day EACH (even worse) we have decided to concede defeat and pay it. It does not mean we agree with it but a case of having to.

 

I also find it intriguing to know how many person hours are spent dividing it up between the individuals - this has a cost to it as well. Does one presume that the shipping company takes that out of the tip before handing it out? It does raise a few questions for me anyway.

 

If you have already had a go at me in another thread about this please don't bother again. I just wanted to make my own point here.

 

Well said sky dancing,seems like we're "cultural cousins".

Nice to know the kiwi attitude to tipping as I'll be cruising round your neck of the woods in November -- on a Hal ship !

 

Life's a jest and all things show it.

I thought so once but now I know it

[skydancing]

Nice one! I am guessing you are Australian?

 

Are you visiting Napier? Its a great place to visit.

 

I remember a few years ago getting a taxi in Alice Springs and we thought the driver was so good we gave him a tip and he gave it back to us!!

[DizzyDallasDi]

If I may ask, those of you who are from cultures where tipping is not a common practice, how do you respond to the mandatory hotel service charges added to the cost of your room in hotels? I'm pretty sure those are not negotiable and you will pay them...like it or not.

 

The $11/day service charge added to HAL's bill is the same thing. The only difference is that you can adjust that charge if you feel your service has been extremely subpar.

 

My suggestion would be to quit thinking of this $11/day service charge as a "tip" and start thinking of it as a "hotel service charge." That may make it easier for you to swallow. :)

[Hawaiidan]

The $11 is labeled as a "tip" but in reality, as others have mentioned, it is part of the overall fare and Holland Does everyhting it can as do others, to reduce the price impact of the fare to a customer. They can list the cruise $77 pp cheaper per week. Price point in this very competive market is important. Same with fuel charges etc.

All the employees on the ship get the same wages and the ship uses the $11 as part of the income.

SO ....that $11 is part of the fare part of the bill It is not a tip.

 

This brings me to tipping for real. That is rewarding specific persons who perform personal tasks for you that you feel greatful for. Knowing that these ship people are paid minimum scale may help you make your decision.

The "if they were paid a decent wage" we would not have to tip is a cop-out. In fairness and in reality if they paid the crew a decent wage then you proably would NOT take the cruise because of the very high price they would have to charge.

The employee has only 1 option, do his best to try to please a customer and "earn" his gratitude and possibly some extra income. Its your option to decide how much the specific service helped you or pleased you... Totaly your call. If you feel people who make an effort to help you should be paid better... well you have the chance to help !

 

But as they say you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Put yourself in their shoes....

 

I have been to some of the countries where service staff were paid a decent wage, and can say from experience the service is non-existant and prices very high for what you got.

 

There was no motivation to do anything but the minimum.. I have had waiters in Australia and New Zealand , just walk out in the middle of serving a table because their shift was over !!! ( Without a word either.) :eek:

 

I tip a bit to my stewards at the beginnning to establish the relation and give an indication that I am willing to recognize there efforts. I am selective and choose persons with whom I will have constant contact with, A waiter, A cabin steward etc. Bar bills get an automatic 15%

but thats it.... its your choice... :rolleyes:

[Corinium]

Nice one! I am guessing you are Australian?

 

Are you visiting Napier? Its a great place to visit.

 

I remember a few years ago getting a taxi in Alice Springs and we thought the driver was so good we gave him a tip and he gave it back to us!!

 

I'm a Brit actually but don't mind being taken for an Aussie.

Yes we will be visiting Napier. Do you have any "tips" on excursions and things to do in port ?

Cheers

[skydancing]

I have stayed in a few hotels, many motels and other types of accommodation in New Zealand and Australia and always there has been a flat rate for the room or accommodation? No service charges that I have noticed.

 

Perhaps they were included in the price quoted and paid for at the beginning which basically is the norm here and what I expected when quoted for the cruise. Maybe that helps clarify my "attitude".

 

It seems I am stirring up a hornets nest once again over this issue and maybe we should just agree to differ on the topic.

 

Corinium my apologies for mistaking you for an Australian !! Unforgiveable lol.

 

Napier is a fascinating place to visit and when you are here would be delighted to show you and yours around. We should work out a way to have this happen. Us Kiwis are a friendly bunch and it would an honour to show someone our beautiful country.

 

I was just thinking about air hostesses - are they paid minimal wages to keep airfares down and we should be tipping them as well. God forbid that that ever happens and we dont tip them as well.

[Corinium]

I have stayed in a few hotels, many motels and other types of accommodation in New Zealand and Australia and always there has been a flat rate for the room or accommodation? No service charges that I have noticed.

 

Perhaps they were included in the price quoted and paid for at the beginning which basically is the norm here and what I expected when quoted for the cruise. Maybe that helps clarify my "attitude".

 

It seems I am stirring up a hornets nest once again over this issue and maybe we should just agree to differ on the topic.

 

Corinium my apologies for mistaking you for an Australian !! Unforgiveable lol.

 

Napier is a fascinating place to visit and when you are here would be delighted to show you and yours around. We should work out a way to have this happen. Us Kiwis are a friendly bunch and it would an honour to show someone our beautiful country.

 

I was just thinking about air hostesses - are they paid minimal wages to keep airfares down and we should be tipping them as well. God forbid that that ever happens and we dont tip them as well.

 

Thanks for your kind offer. Please drop me a line at cruisebuddy65@yahoo.co.uk

It's not my regular address, but one i use just to keep the spammers guessing !

Cheers Barry the Brit

[jtl513]

The $11 is labeled as a "tip" but in reality ...

WHO labels it as a tip? Not HAL. (See post #9) Only the posters on Cruise Critic who do not want to pay the charge insist on calling it a tip. :rolleyes:

[Opinions]

WHO labels it as a tip? Not HAL. (See post #9) Only the posters on Cruise Critic who do not want to pay the charge insist on calling it a tip. :rolleyes:

 

HAL originally called it a tip or gratuity when they added these charges...Later on they changed it to a service charge...Whatever they call it , it is what it is.