Another way OT thread - SPG Amex card

[Paulchili]

This may be of interest to some (JimandStan, caribbeansun, etc) but perhaps not to others.

On a different thread we discussed benefits of a particular credit card – SPG Amex. I did not wish to further impose on Claudia and “steal” her thread, so I decided to create a new one.

Some people prefer to use the SPG points for hotels (J&S, caribbeansun) while I posted that I prefer using them for premium cabin flights.

I tried to do a comparison on value obtained from 1 SPG point on hotel vs airline redemption (business and first class). I randomly picked a date in mid-September for hotels and flights and compared top of the line Starwood hotels (W, Westin, St. Regis) vs top of line OW carriers (CX, QF,BA,AA). The cities used for hotel stays were NYC, Tokyo, Shanghai, Hong Kong and London – all considered “expensive” cities. For flights I used longest available routes for the same amount of AA FF points– NYC-HKG, NYC-SYD, LAX-DEL in business and first class.

Hotels are “paid” for with SPG points, flights with FF miles. I had to convert the FF miles into SPG points in order to compare apples to apples. For those who do not know, SPG points convert to AA miles at 1:1.25 rate (i.e. 40K SPG points = 50K AA miles)

I am not a math major and do not claim that these figures are absolutely fool-proof, but they are accurate to the best of my knowledge.

Couple of other points first:

When redeeming SPG points for hotels you get the lowest category (basic) rooms, unless you are top level elite with *wood and may be upgraded; these are the rates and SPG point values I used. Also, when paying for hotel, it costs the same for 1 person (room) as it does for 2; whereas when buying airline tickets you have to pay for 2 people. All this was taken into account – thus airline tickets are for RT for 2 people.

In general, for hotel redemptions 1 SPG point gave you a value anywhere from $0.02 to 0.04. This compares with airline redemption where 1 SPG point gives you a value of $ 0.07 to 0.24.

That is anywhere from twice to 12 times higher return (in the extremes).

The extremes were as follows:

Hotels (one night) – W in London GBP 329= $541 for 20K SPG. Value 0.02 (also true for Westin Tokyo, Westin Shanghai); on the other end was St. Regis NYC $995 for 25K SPG. Value 0.04 (this group included Chatwall in NYC, Westin, NYC).

Airlines (RT) – lowest value return was $0.07 for business class LAX to DEL; highest return was $0.24 for CX first class ticket NYC-HKG (if purchased would cost $52,608 for RT for 2; in miles it is 270K AA miles or 220K SPG points). Other returns were $0.08. $0.11, $0.13.

Again, this may be totally irrelevant for some (especially on a cruise board) but hopefully helpful for others.

If you feel I made errors in my calculations, please correct me.

PS All prices (hotels and airlines) are without taxes.

"Free" hotels or "free" flights - take your pick :)

[Paulchili]

I should also mention that it is a lot easier to accumulate AA miles than SPG points.

I just received 225K AA miles for opening 3 CCs; have received this type of promotion many times in the past as well as several other promotions (Fidelity miles, shopping, dining, car rentals, hotels, etc).

With SPG you can only receive 1 promotion ("no churning") and you earn them 1:1 for money spent; converted to miles they are 1:1.25.

YMMV

[JandKsVistas]

Thank you so much for this comparison. My husband and I have spent hours in discusssion (over drinks, which may add to our lack of ability to calculate;)) about this very topic. I must add that when using SPG points for hotels you do not pay taxes which is a great savings in many cities and may change a few of these comparisons Also several overseas airlines (British Airways and Air France to name two) have very high taxes and fuel charges added to the ticket when using points.

[Paulchili]

Thank you so much for this comparison. My husband and I have spent hours in discusssion (over drinks' date=' which may add to our lack of ability to calculate;)) about this very topic. I must add that when using SPG points for hotels you do not pay taxes which is a great savings in many cities and may change a few of these comparisons Also several overseas airlines (British Airways and Air France to name two) have very high taxes and fuel charges added to the ticket when using points.[/quote']

 

You are correct about the taxes/fuel surcharges on BA.

FWIW, none of these tickets/awards here were actually on BA - they were on CX to HKG, AA to DEL and QFto SYD using AA miles, so the taxes would be quite reasonable.

As I said, aside from the calculations, I find it much easier to pay for a hotel (even 5*), especially when it is points and cash, than to pay thousands for 2 business class tickets.

[JimandStan]

You've done a brilliant job of it, Paul, and calculated the rewards to a point where there isn't much head scratching left to do.

 

Where the Starwood card may come in handy for some, and the reason that we mentioned it in the first place on the other thread, is that Starwood rewards points never expire.

 

Those of us who are Mile Maniacs (Stan and I figured out a way to charge our monthly mortgage payments), may find this hard to believe, but a great many people "time out" of the American Airline Frequent Flier system before they receive any worthwhile benefit.

 

The Starwood Card can give them some valuable options, as well as some marvelous travel insurance at no additional cost.

 

By the way, we always use the "cash plus points" option for Hotel Rooms, because that gives us the option of booking anything from a broom closet up to the Presidential Suite.

[JandKsVistas]

I will now bore you with more questions.

We flew CX to Hong Kong, had enough AA and Amex points to go

first class. They would not let us use those points for anything but coach. Have you run into this? We find even if we transfer the points into to each FF acct, coach is the only available option if the points have been transferred into the FF acct from a card. Trying to use AA points for BA we had the same situation, coach available, nothing else. We do call the day the bookings open.

We have been able to use Amex for AirFrance business.

Sorry to take up time and space on cruise blog, but you have really peaked our interest.

[Paulchili]

I will now bore you with more questions.

We flew CX to Hong Kong' date=' had enough AA and Amex points to go

first class. They would not let us use those points for anything but coach. Have you run into this? We find even if we transfer the points into to each FF acct, coach is the only available option if the points have been transferred into the FF acct from a card. Trying to use AA points for BA we had the same situation, coach available, nothing else. We do call the day the bookings open.

We have been able to use Amex for AirFrance business.

Sorry to take up time and space on cruise blog, but you have really peaked our interest.[/quote']

 

Timing and flexibility are key. They cannot "restrict" you as to which class you can use your AA miles for as long as there is award availability. Usually, if checking at 330 days out, you should have little trouble getting those premium tickets; sometimes you have to be creative with routing - such as fly CX to HKG out of YVR for same # of miles, for example. Rather than calling, you must search yourself, find the availability and then call them with specifics. Best free place to search for OW award availability is BA.com (AA will not show BA,CX,QF award availability - BA will). For a fee you can subscribe to Expert Flyer that show all classes of tickets available; if your dates are not available you can set up alerts and as soon as availability opens, you get notified.

We got 2 F tickets on CX SFO-HKG for January, 2 J tickets SYD-LAX on QF (those are the toughest).

FlyerTalk for flying is the same as CC for cruising; invaluable information on how to get awards/routing, etc, etc - tricks of the trade from the experts. These are people who fly many times a week as part of their work and know EVERYTHING about airlines and such. Everything I know about FF programs and how to get miles I learned there.

Give it a shot - works very similarly to CC with different boards, search buttons, etc

For specific questions you can e mail me at Paulpepperatcomcastdotnet.

[Paulchili]

We flew CX to Hong Kong' date=' had enough AA and Amex points to go

first class. They would not let us use those points for anything but coach. Have you run into this? We find even if we transfer the points into to each FF acct, coach is the only available option if the points have been transferred into the FF acct from a card.[/quote']

 

 

For example, check out this thread currently running about CX F availability on FT:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-aadvantage/1223378-cx-lax-hkg-bkk-f-class-award-availability-jan.html

[JandKsVistas]

Whoa! Thank you Paulchili for the info and FlyerTalk recommendation.

When we cruise our goal is to use points for air and hotel and if the air is over the pond try for premium seats. You have really helped us.

Kathy

[Paulchili]

Whoa! Thank you Paulchili for the info and FlyerTalk recommendation.

When we cruise our goal is to use points for air and hotel and if the air is over the pond try for premium seats. You have really helped us.

Kathy

 

You are most welcome.

Happy trails - in the air, on land or at sea :)

[Fam_Cruise]

highest return was $0.24 for CX first class ticket NYC-HKG (if purchased would cost $52,608 for RT for 2; in miles it is 270K AA miles or 220K SPG points).

If purchased it would cost a lot less than $26K/person. I flew CX F last week roundtrip LAX-HKG for $7637.70. $7637.70 is for ACIR22 (oneworld First Class Circle ♦Pacific First Class ticket purchased through AA RTW desk ex-HKG) total routing is HKG-LAX (CX F) LAX-SYD, (QF F A380), BNE-MEL (QF J), MEL-SIN (QF F A380), and SIN-HKG (CX J). I use the OW RTW and CirPac products a lot and so do others I know, so prices are much lower than the "list" price. Now about your math... here's another angle comparing Marriott Rewards to SPG.

 

For someone spending $10000 a year at Starwood vs Marriott Properties using their respective affinity CCs.

 

SPG

$10000 x 2 points/$ = 20000 base points

$10000 x 2 points/$ = 20000 SPG Amex points

 

Total 40000 points

 

SPG Gold and Plat add 10000 more bonus points for a total of 50000 points

 

Converted to miles:

Base Member: 40000 points = 50000 miles

Gold/Plat Mem: 50000 points = 62500 miles

 

 

Marriott Rewards

 

$10000 x 10 points/$ = 100000 base points

$10000 x 5 points/$ = 50000 MR Premier Visa points

 

Total 150000 points

 

MR Gold add 30000 more bonus points for a total of 180000 points

MR Plat add 50000 more bonus points for a total of 200000 points

 

Converted to miles:

Base Member: 150000 points = 55000 miles

Gold Mem: 180000 points = 65000 miles

Plat Mem: 200000 points = 75000 miles

 

So for the same $10000 hotel spend, you come out 10-20% ahead when converting MR points to airline miles.

 

And if you save MR points for travel packages (7 days at hotel plus airlines miles) then you can effectively convert MR points to miles at an exchange rate of 1-for-1. This is by far the best mileage earning anywhere. For a MR Plat elite that translates to 20 miles per dollar spent at Marriott properties.

 

Converted to miles using Travel Packages:

Base Member: 150000 points = 150000 miles

Gold Mem: 180000 points = 180000 miles

Plat Mem: 200000 points = 200000 miles

 

Only BIG drawback is that Marriott Rewards does not participate in AAdvantage program anymore.

 

Check out the stickies and various discussions in the FT oneworld forum for more info on the ins and outs of purchasing and using RTW and CirPac tickets:

[Riverroad]

Didn't know you could use Amex points for AF Business.Can you explain how to do it?

[dino2067]

Timing and flexibility are key. They cannot "restrict" you as to which class you can use your AA miles for as long as there is award availability. Usually, if checking at 330 days out, you should have little trouble getting those premium tickets; sometimes you have to be creative with routing - such as fly CX to HKG out of YVR for same # of miles, for example. Rather than calling, you must search yourself, find the availability and then call them with specifics. Best free place to search for OW award availability is BA.com (AA will not show BA,CX,QF award availability - BA will). For a fee you can subscribe to Expert Flyer that show all classes of tickets available; if your dates are not available you can set up alerts and as soon as availability opens, you get notified.

 

Hi Paul,

 

Besides Expert Flyer, there is also KVSTool which I prefer over EF particularly for OW award availability. Just depends which interface one prefers.

 

If you haven't already, you may also like to checkout Award Nexus to compliment what you may already be using. If you are already a member of FT, there is a complimentary signup available:

 

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/1104115-star-alliance-oneworld-award-planning-award-nexus.html

 

I have also done the *wood points transfers to airlines...the best was through Lan (1:2.5) for BA RT J class tickets with +/- total fees of $70 per ticket vs. BA's exorbitant charges. :)

 

Kathleen

[Fam_Cruise]

I love the EF alerts. I have a few set up right now waiting for award availability. One for this coming Thanksgiving which should open up at some point as the day I am checking on is actually Thanksgiving day. The others include an alert for an upgrade from GCM to MIA at 6 AM on a Saturday. I have no idea why that flight has no upgrade seats available as J is wide open, and who departs Cayman at 6 AM on a Saturday morning? The others are set for when upgrade availability drops below 5 on 6 upcoming flights (currently 7 are available on all 6 flights) at which time I will have to decide to use my out standing SWUs.

[Paulchili]

Kathleen & Fam_Cruise,

Thank you both for your valuable contribution to this thread. I am always happy and eager to learn more about all aspects of travel as that is our hobby #1.

 

Kathleen - I do use KVS as well but will explore Award Nexus. Also, thanks for the LAN tip.

 

Fam_Cruise - I know you can get better value for CX F tickets. I randomly picked a day in mid September for both hotels and flights and used SPG site for hotel prices and ITA Software for airline prices. Likewise, one can get better values for hotel prices on other sites as well but I used these tools for simplicity and consistency; otherwise this search could become overwhelming. :)

However, I believe that the fact remains that one gets more value out of using SPG points for premium airline tickets than for hotels.

While I have a Marriott reward card, I use it seldom as MR points cannot be converted to AA miles; maybe I will re-examine this card based on what you said. I can easily manage to spend 10K on my Marriott card for purchases but never on stays at Marriott properties, which is what your figures indicate (I think).

[caribbeansun]

A good starting point Paul and indeed half the fun is gaming the system(s) so just to add more variables to the comparison I will note the following:

 

SPG:

- I most often use 5th night free promos which will drop your redemption cost on SPG by 20%

- no taxes or additional fees for using SPG (lets not go down the resort fee road as we may never come back up for air)

- I frequently get upgraded in Europe above the class of room I "pay" for using SPG points

- I have almost no knowledge of the ins and outs related to Asia so can't comment further

- you can churn and you can extract "bonuses" from Amex if you play the game

 

Air:

- taxes are still payable on redemptions (in Canada these can be BIG $)

- flying J class to Europe is considerably cheaper than to Asia

 

 

One example:

 

YYZ-CDG, J x2 = $7730Cdn (excluding taxes) on Air Canada

Points req'd = 200,000

Req'd spend = 200,000/1.25 = $160,000

Value per $ spent = $0.0483

 

 

 

SPG Westin Paris - nightly rate prepaid lowest cat = 484.29 Euro

Converted to Cdn = $697.38Cdn

5 nights = $3,487

Points req'd = 80,000 (5th night free)

Req'd spend = $80,000

Value per $ spent = $0.0436

 

 

Close enough for me to call it a tie.

[JandKsVistas]

Didn't know you could use Amex points for AF Business.Can you explain how to do it?

 

After reading the posts here we have realized we are really novices at this thing. Others could answer you with much more info I think.

We started with a gold Amex and used points through the Delta FF program for Air France once and then after joining Flying Blue (the Air France FF program) transfered points into that program directly for another two trips.

[dino2067]

Kathleen & Fam_Cruise,

Kathleen - I do use KVS as well but will explore Award Nexus. Also, thanks for the LAN tip.

 

Used LAN for F/J award tickets on the B-2-B this year...did an open jaw of SFO-MIA (AA) with FCO-SFO (BA) and previously, on a J award ticket on CX to Asia.

 

There are caveats with using LAN for award travel on OW airlines though...such as it takes awhile for *wood points to post to a LAN account (up to a few weeks), awards must be booked by phone (call center in Chile) and can not be held, award chart is in km not miles, you REALLY need to be well versed in what award seats are already available and lay it out segment by segment if need be to get what you want, to name a few.

 

But the bang for the *wood point can't be beat...it just isn't for the faint of heart!

 

Kathleen

[Paulchili]

caribbeansun,

You are right - fun is in the gaming; and not everyone is willing to put in the time it takes to attempt to "master" the game. However, for those that do, it has potentially great benefits.

It all depends on travel patterns, hotel chain, airline/alliance preferences, destinations (Asia vs Europe), etc.

For example, I would rarely spend 5 nights in the same hotel at this point in my travels in order to take advantage of the offer you mention; but I can see how that would be advantageous to many.

I am hoping that others will benefit from the discussion on this thread as well since the adage "different strokes for different folks" is particularly true here; our travel and spending patterns and preferences vary greatly from person to person. We can all learn from others' knowledge and experiences.

As they say - YMMV

[dino2067]

After reading the posts here we have realized we are really novices at this thing.

 

We all have been novices at this stuff at one time as well...no shame in that! :)

 

As others have mentioned' date=' it [u']can[/u] be a great deal of fun to do...the more you try it the better you get at it.

 

Since there are sooo many different ways to collect points these days the best advice would be to pick an airline and/or alliance to concentrate on and explore the possibilities on how to collect/maximize award points to utilize with your chosen airline/alliance.

 

Another website (besides FlyerTalk) that you can check out is called The Points Guy...helping to make the most out of your travel points. Also, on CC don't overlook the Cruise Air section...there are some very savvy frequent flyers over there that are very well versed in the use of award points/miles...

 

Kathleen

[Paulchili]

Used LAN for F/J award tickets on the B-2-B this year...did an open jaw of SFO-MIA (AA) with FCO-SFO (BA) and previously, on a J award ticket on CX to Asia.

 

There are caveats with using LAN for award travel on OW airlines though...such as it takes awhile for *wood points to post to a LAN account (up to a few weeks), awards must be booked by phone (call center in Chile) and can not be held, award chart is in km not miles, you REALLY need to be well versed in what award seats are already available and lay it out segment by segment if need be to get what you want, to name a few.

 

But the bang for the *wood point can't be beat...it just isn't for the faint of heart!

 

Kathleen

 

Thanks Kathleen - I will investigate, as I am not faint of heart (at least when it comes to travel) :D

But you are right - the chart looks complicated and requires a lot of studying.

[caribbeansun]

Do you ever feel like you've really master it though? I seem to find something new all the time.

 

We most often use the 5 nights awards pre-cruise in Europe when we want to "slide" into our vacation as it allows a good amount of time for touring at a very relaxed rate as well as time to adjust to the time change.

 

Cash and points is great if you can get availability, I've had minimal success on that front unfortunately and I've never used points for a North American stay.

 

Secondary card is an Aeroplan Visa for air travel so I haven't had to convert *wood for air (yet).

 

Planning wise for those that book *Alliance their site is far superior for planning/routing over anything Aeroplan offers (half the time they aren't even listed on the Aeroplan site requiring a call to the center which of course they charge you for - charge you because their site isn't very good).

 

caribbeansun,

You are right - fun is in the gaming; and not everyone is willing to put in the time it takes to attempt to "master" the game. However, for those that do, it has potentially great benefits.

It all depends on travel patterns, hotel chain, airline/alliance preferences, destinations (Asia vs Europe), etc.

For example, I would rarely spend 5 nights in the same hotel at this point in my travels in order to take advantage of the offer you mention; but I can see how that would be advantageous to many.

I am hoping that others will benefit from the discussion on this thread as well since the adage "different strokes for different folks" is particularly true here; our travel and spending patterns and preferences vary greatly from person to person. We can all learn from others' knowledge and experiences.

As they say - YMMV

[Paulchili]

Do you ever feel like you've really master it though? I seem to find something new all the time.

 

 

I certainly have not mastered it - that is why I said "attempting to master it". I learn new "tricks" all the time; plus new offers come along as well. That is why something like this is helpful - by sharing other peoples' knowledge and experiences, we all learn something new. :)

[noriboating]

With SPG, if you transfer 20,000 pts to an airline acct, they give you another 5,000. I love this card!