Costa Concordia SINKING

[Cuizer2]

Would that be similar to an umbrella policy?

 

In general an excess policy is excess over one primary policy while an umbrella policy is excess over several primary policies.

 

You could have an excess auto policy and an excess homeowners policy and an excess health insurance policy or you could have an umbrella policy that is excess over all three primary policies.

[Davyjonesrugrat]

The Italian word De Falco used, "cazzo" in Italian, is slang for the male sexual organ but it is commonly used to emphasize something, equivalent to "Go on board, damn it."

I would like to point out that at no time were any animals hurt in the use of this phrase "Vada a bordo, cazzo!"!!! lol:)

[judybee]

Originally Posted by judybee

Does anyone know when Schettino became the captain of the Concordia? I have searched everywhere but can only find that he became a Costa captain in 2006; it does not say which ships he captained. I ask this because I sailed on the Concordia on a similar route in 2007 and I was wondering if he was my captain. :eek:

 

I believe Concordia was launched in 2006 & he was given the Captaincy then.

 

I too have put my family's lives in his hands.:(

 

Thanks. I will have to look at my papers to see if I can find out for sure. At least we can hope that he will never sail another ship again.

[Cuizer2]

Most of what you say is truth.

 

However, most large companies are also owned by stock holders, and they must carry some form of insurance to answer to the stockholders in the event of a loss. It's good business so no one loses their shirt if the ship goes down.

 

On the Government/City self insurance; I used to be a broker for the Municipality's association in my area, they carried insurance on everything for their Liability, but decided not to insure smaller buildings based on the lower hazards, and higher deductibles for this. They did not self insure liability 100% at all. They held a high deductible (PD/BI deductible) but in no way carried the entire risk themselves. In a catastrophic loss it would not make any sense to do this. (like a tornado).

 

I have to disagree with your statement that Hertz has more assets than many insurance companies. That may be the case in some places or with some smaller insurance companies, but in reality most larger insurers have more assets that we actually can see. They have strong investment ties with Banks and securities. They are mandated to.

 

There is an aggregate for MOST insurance companies however, with Marine Insurance there is typically no aggregate as it would be hard to cap for the losses of this size on the Liability.

There is no aggregate for property damage at all. It's up to the limits on the declaration page subject to a co insurance penalty if necessary.

 

Remember, unlike our Property and Casualty Insurance, marine insurance is a different animal altogether.

 

Unlike most coverages it is a Manuscript wording which means they put the wordings together based on what they chose to exclude or cover based on the re-insurers that are involved and what the stock holders agree to.

 

They equate self insurance with deductible in our world. Same thing.

It's important to also point out that most Marine policies are only covered by re-insurers. Lloyds of London gets them together and they each take a portion of the risk. Since the risk is so high, the limits too, are very high.

 

I'm not trying to teach a college level course in insurance. I am just providing general information.

 

As to Hertz, we had to rent the parking lot of a sports stadium to test a car. The stadium wanted to know who insured Hertz. I told the person Hertz was self-insured. The person was very disappointed until I mentioned that Hertz has more assets than many of the insurance carriers that they would accept a certificate of insurance from. The person agree and we were able to go forward with our testing.

 

I didn't say Hertz was larger than all insurance companies. Nor did I say Hertz was larger than most insurance companies. I said Hertz is larger than many insurance companies and I stand by that statement.

 

You can nit pick all you like. However, I was giving general information and not being specific to any particular line of business.

[Janman]

If you didn't read it last night check out Concernedcostaemployee's long translation of an article that appeared in La Republica yesterday. It can be found on p 119 post #2378. Shocking account!

[Feelin' Nauti']

Personal injury and loss of life, analysts have estimated claims could reach anywhere from $500 million up to $1 billion.

 

The recoveries are what money is recovered by the sale of salvaged and damaged parts of the 114,500-tonne ship with its 6000 sq m fitness centre, five jacuzzis, 13 bars and six Wartsila diesel engines.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Recoveries will be sought by any personal items found at the bottom of the Tyrrhenian Sea such as jewelery, money whose ownership cannot be confirmed.

[Seago2]

If you didn't read it last night check out Concernedcostaemployee's long translation of an article that appeared in La Republica yesterday. It can be found on p 119 post #2378. Shocking account!

 

I did read that this morning. Unbelievable. On the phone with Costa Spin Control. "Excuse me, Capitan! We have flooding!" (no answer).

[EVALUATOR]

The recoveries are what money is recovered by the sale of salvaged and damaged parts of the 114' date='500-tonne ship with its 6000 sq m fitness centre, five jacuzzis, 13 bars and six Wartsila diesel engines.[b'].[/b]

 

Can you see the classified ad.

 

For Sale...

 

Late model ship.

New paint.

Recently renovated.

Unused state of the art navigation system.

 

Best offer.

 

 

 

 

Uh...give me the Carfax...

[Trumpeter]

Can I just say it pisses me off that the captain is on house arrest. He's eating homemade meals and sleeping in his own bed and spending time with his family. Meanwhile, because of his reckless actions, more than 30 people are dead.

 

That is just so wrong. He should be behind bars.

 

He should be behind bars if/when he is convicted of a crime in a court. Until then, the court's only concern is that he shows up for proceedings and isn't a potential danger to the public. House arrest keeps him available, and it's hard to believe that he's a danger to anyone, unless someone lets him drive a ship again.

[Canadian Karebear]

I'm not trying to teach a college level course in insurance. I am just providing general information.

 

As to Hertz, we had to rent the parking lot of a sports stadium to test a car. The stadium wanted to know who insured Hertz. I told the person Hertz was self-insured. The person was very disappointed until I mentioned that Hertz has more assets than many of the insurance carriers that they would accept a certificate of insurance from. The person agree and we were able to go forward with our testing.

 

I didn't say Hertz was larger than all insurance companies. Nor did I say Hertz was larger than most insurance companies. I said Hertz is larger than many insurance companies and I stand by that statement.

 

You can nit pick all you like. However, I was giving general information and not being specific to any particular line of business.

 

I am not "teaching" insurance.

I'm informing on certain aspects of what I know. I have been doing this a very long time, and have a degree in this Industry (held many years).

 

I just think that armchair insurance underwriters such as yourself sometimes need to look at the information you are providing and remember the scale you are informing about.

 

The original discussion is about Marine Insurance.

That's the topic at hand.

 

The size of your assets is not the question or was the question. It was useless information you chose to provide based on what? :confused: (I would like to see examples of this but that's another thread for another day).

 

We are talking about a large scale insurance risk here, on a Manuscript Marine Policy shared between 5 (I believe it was 5 that I counted) re-insurance companies.

 

Not your CGL coverage for a parking lot or a few cars.

 

Nuff said.

[Thoie]

Congress (US) has already called for hearings on what to do to prevent situations like this from happening again. I'm not sure what legislation can be passed to prevent a rogue Captain from doing something stupid. We have all kinds of laws and it doesn't seem to stop any rogue action, ie: cops, teachers, priests, fill in whatever occupation you want, from doing stupid or even criminal things.

 

 

It will also make bugger all difference to ships not registered in the US.

[jtwitch]

Understand that the Concordia is a Carnival Cruise Lines ship, just as much as the Ruby Princess or the Veendam. She's just not a Carnvial ship. There's a reason why holding companies are always recommended to have different names than their subsidiaries, to avoid just this situation.

 

CCL wholly owns, and therefore has oversight over Costa and will be instrumental in resolving this situation..

 

No. That's still not right.

 

Carnival Corporation owns both Carnival Cruise Lines AND Costa.

Carnival Cruise Lines and Costa are sister companies, both held by Carnival Corporation.

 

You can say that the Concordia is a Carnival Corporation ship, just like the Ruby Princess or the Carnival Valor... but you cannot say that the Concordia is a Carnival Cruise Lines ship. (Well... you can say it, but you wouldn't be right.)

 

This is further confused by the fact that many CC'ers refer to Carnival Cruise Lines as CCL, but the NYSE refers to Carnival Corporation as CCL.

[AAAAmerican]

Dear Cuizer2,

 

Sometimes giving G.I. may not be what the reader sees.

 

 

On Market Cap: $ 5.4 B Hertz (HTZ :NYSE), HQ in Bergen County, the Borough of Park Ridge, New Jersey 07656-9999 are not the best Corporate neighbors, yes very short on the pay/benefits they provide Hertz people too. They have done a few changes in well juggling I would say more in Corporate Accounting as well Ownership. Yes only providing themselves with the best parts.. hmm..sounds like this Ship Master who wrecked by Show-Boating again..eh..

 

FDX :NYSE Federal Express Corporation, is mostly Self Insured and No Unions also, but only Pilots Union and they have to carry coverages for this area.:D

 

 

 

I'm not trying to teach a college level course in insurance. I am just providing general information.

 

As to Hertz, we had to rent the parking lot of a sports stadium to test a car. The stadium wanted to know who insured Hertz. I told the person Hertz was self-insured. The person was very disappointed until I mentioned that Hertz has more assets than many of the insurance carriers that they would accept a certificate of insurance from. The person agree and we were able to go forward with our testing.

 

I didn't say Hertz was larger than all insurance companies. Nor did I say Hertz was larger than most insurance companies. I said Hertz is larger than many insurance companies and I stand by that statement.

 

You can nit pick all you like. However, I was giving general information and not being specific to any particular line of business.

[glrounds]

Right - that article is what prompted me to ask about self-insurance, actually. Specifically this phrase:

 

" The company said it was self-insured for loss of use of the vessel which is expected to be out of service until at least Nov. 30 if not longer."

 

It seems disingenuous to call it self-insurance - it's more like a financial loss. Use of the vessel (revenue from shops & casinos, bookings, etc) was not insured (and how could you, really) so they're just not going to recoup anything from that.

 

SELF-INSURANCE simply means they are ASSUMING the risk themselves. In this case the cruise line is not insuring themselves against LOSS OF BUSINESS (the profits they would have made from the Concordia had the ship not sunk and stayed in service).

 

Many companies who are well-capitalized self-insure for many of their risks. They CALCULATE the risks, ASSUME that risk themselves, and put the premiums they would have paid to an insurance company in their pockets.

 

[Canadian Karebear]

SELF-INSURANCE simply means they are ASSUMING the risk themselves. In this case the cruise line is not insuring themselves against LOSS OF BUSINESS (the profits they would have made from the Concordia had the ship not sunk and stayed in service).

 

Many companies who are well-capitalized self-insure for many of their risks. They CALCULATE the risks, ASSUME that risk themselves, and put the premiums they would have paid to an insurance company in their pockets.

 

 

Absolutely correct!!!! :):):)

 

You can insure for loss of financial gain, it's called Business Interruption. Lots of places choose not to carry this coverage as they calculate as per noted above,

 

Great post!!!!

[TheBestIsYetToCome]

I took a snap shot of the Rock that Schettino hit from the video. The German reporter or someone from his station has it circled in red.

 

You can plainly see the rock(s) and the poor Concordia. So from seeing this, I am even more convinced HE KNEW the rock(s) were there and no way in Hades can he say these are uncharted:(

 

[ATTACH]218667[/ATTACH]

 

Joanie

 

Sure, I can see how that might not have been charted. :::eye roll:::

[glrounds]

No. That's still not right.

 

Carnival Corporation owns both Carnival Cruise Lines AND Costa.

Carnival Cruise Lines and Costa are sister companies, both held by Carnival Corporation.

 

You can say that the Concordia is a Carnival Corporation ship, just like the Ruby Princess or the Carnival Valor... but you cannot say that the Concordia is a Carnival Cruise Lines ship. (Well... you can say it, but you wouldn't be right.)

 

This is further confused by the fact that many CC'ers refer to Carnival Cruise Lines as CCL, but the NYSE refers to Carnival Corporation as CCL.

 

Amen . . . this post is DEAD ON.:)

 

[maddie2312]

This guy doesn't know when to stop..... The BBC is reporting Italian media saying he has told the judge he "accidentally tripped and fell into a lifeboat!" Absolutley incredible if he has said it.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16620807

[BalconyBumz]

This guy doesn't know when to stop..... The BBC is reporting Italian media saying he has told the judge he "accidentally tripped and fell into a lifeboat!" Absolutley incredible if he has said it.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16620807

Okay so what's his excuse if he "tripped and fell" getting off, why he couldn't go back on? :eek:

[Seago2]

Okay so what's his excuse if he "tripped and fell" getting off, why he couldn't go back on? :eek:

 

He only had an hour sitting there to try to figure that out.

[SomeBeach]

In general an excess policy is excess over one primary policy while an umbrella policy is excess over several primary policies.

 

You could have an excess auto policy and an excess homeowners policy and an excess health insurance policy or you could have an umbrella policy that is excess over all three primary policies.

 

Thank you and others for your responses.

 

Can you see the classified ad.

 

For Sale...

 

Uh...give me the Carfax...

 

:p

 

It will also make bugger all difference to ships not registered in the US.

 

I believe Congress needs to just give the cruise lines some time to work through this issue on their own to see what they plan to do. Unfortunately I also believe some people have called on Congress to do something, anything to butt into this.

[Ozcruiser1]

From my experience, as a passenger, muster drill location varies from cruise line to cruise line. HAL muster took place at the assigned muster station on the deck near the life boats without our life vests, no names checked, RCCL on deck near life boat without life vests but with names checked, P&O Australia in assigned lounge with life vests no names checked, Princess ( in Australia) in assigned lounge with life vests with names checked on hand held electronic device.

As I see it, the advantage of being mustered in an assigned lounge (area) is that if your dedicated life boat is inoperable staff can direct/escort you to the appropriate location rather than scrambling to find a life boat. Disadvantage of this location is that you have to “follow the leader” to the life boat …..that is ok if I’m within eyesight of the leader but if I’m at the end of the line, I may not be following the correct person or the line is slower moving than my liking etc etc and then causes panic and pushing etc etc.

Disadvantage of being mustered at life boat is that I have to get past other muster stations to get to my assigned station. I would imagine there would be no clear pathway past others waiting to load onto their life boat. What if my assigned life boat is on the “wrong” side and cannot be launched?

 

I would be glad to hear others views on this matter.

[TheBestIsYetToCome]

Okay so what's his excuse if he "tripped and fell" getting off, why he couldn't go back on? :eek:

 

Stupid puddle of superglue on the floor of the lifeboat!

[EVALUATOR]

Okay so what's his excuse if he "tripped and fell" getting off, why he couldn't go back on? :eek:

 

He tried but couldn't find the ship. It wasn't on his lifeboats map either.

[Isklaar]

From my experience, as a passenger, muster drill location varies from cruise line to cruise line. HAL muster took place at the assigned muster station on the deck near the life boats without our life vests, no names checked, RCCL on deck near life boat without life vests but with names checked, P&O Australia in assigned lounge with life vests no names checked, Princess ( in Australia) in assigned lounge with life vests with names checked on hand held electronic device.

As I see it, the advantage of being mustered in an assigned lounge (area) is that if your dedicated life boat is inoperable staff can direct/escort you to the appropriate location rather than scrambling to find a life boat. Disadvantage of this location is that you have to “follow the leader” to the life boat …..that is ok if I’m within eyesight of the leader but if I’m at the end of the line, I may not be following the correct person or the line is slower moving than my liking etc etc and then causes panic and pushing etc etc.

Disadvantage of being mustered at life boat is that I have to get past other muster stations to get to my assigned station. I would imagine there would be no clear pathway past others waiting to load onto their life boat. What if my assigned life boat is on the “wrong” side and cannot be launched?

 

I would be glad to hear others views on this matter.

 

Hi Ozcruiser, thanks for sharing about how the procedures vary on diifferent cruise lines.

I have only cruised with one cruiseline, and their muster is held in an assigned lounge. It's on the same deck as the lifeboats, and they ask passengers to form a long line and to put your right hand on the shoulder of the person ahead of you in the line, as you progress outside to the lifeboats area, so everyone stays together, I guess. So in theory that should prevent losing sight of the leader. Is that the norm with all cruise companies?

On the same subject of mustering at an assigned lounge, since these terrible events have unfolded, next time I cruise I will be asking the question "what happens and where do we go if the assigned lounge and immediate area is out of use?" (due to something like a fire, god forbid). Where are we supposed to muster in that situation. I can imagine that would be incredibly chaotic in that case.