New to Celebrity ...Tipping question.

[BKFlowerMound]

In Europe the minimum wage is the minimum wage your employer has to pay with no allowance made for tips.

 

 

I am not suggesting you should not pay the tips and I would never remove the auto-gratuities, but I was questioning lsimon's assertion that Celebrity employees are paid a token wage, as can happen in the US. If Celebrity ships are subject to Maltese law it would be illegal for them to pay their crew less than the minimum wage.

 

When I read Suzy's post, I got angry. I thought better of it. One cannot tell one's heart from reading the cold words of a post. My guess is that Suzy's heart is in the right place, that I would enjoy cruising with her, and that her posts are motivated by genuine concern for the people who serve her on the ships.

 

Malta is a flag of convenience similar to Liberia or Panama. We can assume that Maltese law doesn't require the same minimum wage for workers on board a Maltese flagged ship as if they were working in Europe. The fact that Celebrity registers ships in Malta essentially means that's not true. If it were true, they wouldn't be registered in Malta.

 

The U.S. system does not require a "token" wage as has been asserted. The minimum wage laws require that a U.S. worker be paid a minimum of $7.25 an hour. If in a job, one receives at least $30 a month in tips, then the law permits the employer to pay $2.13 an hour plus tips so long as the employee earns at least $7.25 an hour (with the employer having to make up the difference). In essence, about the only jobs in the U.S. that meet this requirement are waiters and waitresses in a restaurant.

 

Moreover, in the U.S., very few workers are paid right at the minimum wage. Waiters and waitresses in particular earn far more under the tipping system then they would make working at a minimum wage job. I'm sure that the IRS (our taxing authority) would like to get rid of tips as well as they know with absolute certainty that many, many tipped employees are under-reporting their tips so as to pay less tax. (The employers benefit too as they don't have to pay the additional payroll tax on the under-reported wages)

 

In some way, I don't even know why we're talking about the U.S. system. People are mistaken in saying that cruise ships operate under the U.S. system. It's a cruise ship system that existed long before most of the cruise lines were, in effect, owned by U.S. companies. There is no other industry that operates this way in the U.S. If we were really operating under the U.S. system on a cruise ship, the tips would be way more than $11.50 a day.

 

If someone decides they aren't willing to pay the $11.50 a day in tips, the only ones that they are hurting are the servers who bust their tails to provide service to them during their cruise. I would also assert that if they know the deal (that the tip isn't really a tip in the U.S. sense of the word) then their actions are immoral and they're hurting themselves in the long run.

 

Many might think that it would be better if the cruise companies got rid of the tip (which is really just a service charge), and paid better wages. There is some merit to that. However, at present, the cruise companies don't do it that way and people have to operate within the present system. And before there is a change, people ought to consider the downside of any change. Taxes that people pay on their cruises would go up if the service charge was included in the fare.

 

I guess I would end this rant by saying, that no matter how anyone feels about the present system, please do not remove your tips.

[sarahc78]

The thing that irks me is the having to pre pay gratuities if you choose select dining. What if service wasnt good? Not saying it ever has been bad or I expect it to be bad. Just an annoyance to me.

 

Yes I realize the tips go to other people, you might not have the same table, blah blah. But here in the states you dont tip your waitress at a restaurant before you order and are served right?

[Waihekean]

The thing that irks me is the having to pre pay gratuities if you choose select dining. What if service wasnt good? Not saying it ever has been bad or I expect it to be bad. Just an annoyance to me.

 

Yes I realize the tips go to other people, you might not have the same table, blah blah. But here in the states you dont tip your waitress at a restaurant before you order and are served right?

 

 

AGAIN:rolleyes: That is so not the point. It has nothing to do with a personal service, but it is a hotel service charge.

 

This also relates to your second paragraph, in principle it got nothing to do with the waitress. For example, say you got an experienced waitress that does a good and pleasant job. I am sure that she would receive a range of tips and likely some time no tip for doing exactly the same job.

 

We are talking here about a system were employers are able to avoid wage tax, therefore at the other side of the coin (in the non tipping cultures) it is so hard to understand why tipping is compulsary.

 

Ofcourse as cruisers we like the servers to be financially supported, so the daily charge works in that respect and we can show some more appreciation by giving extra cash on top.

 

But in that matter ofcourse nothing will change and the system will stay in place.

[Suzy Smith]

BKFlowerMound

 

I am sorry if I have made you angry, but can't figure out what I have done to upset you. I understand that you do not approve of people removing the tips, but in my post I said I never remove the tips. In fact I like select dining and pay the tips in advance.

 

I was responding to a poster who suggested that the minimum wage system in Europe was the same as the US, in that tips are factored into the calculations and the employer can therefore pay less than the statutory minimum wage. You did actually confirm that US employers can pay as low as $2.13 per hour.

 

Not sure why tipping is such an emotive subject on these boards - but from what I have seen as soon as anyone queries the system, the reflex action of some posters is to accuse them of effectively trying to stiff the staff. What people choose to do (remove tips, tip extravagantly, pay the basic auto tip) is a personal decision. For those of us from a non-tipping culture there is surely nothing wrong in asking for clarification of how the system works before making our decision.

[Happy Cruiser 6143]

BKFlowerMound

 

I am sorry if I have made you angry, but can't figure out what I have done to upset you. I understand that you do not approve of people removing the tips, but in my post I said I never remove the tips. In fact I like select dining and pay the tips in advance.

 

I was responding to a poster who suggested that the minimum wage system in Europe was the same as the US, in that tips are factored into the calculations and the employer can therefore pay less than the statutory minimum wage. You did actually confirm that US employers can pay as low as $2.13 per hour.

 

Not sure why tipping is such an emotive subject on these boards - but from what I have seen as soon as anyone queries the system, the reflex action of some posters is to accuse them of effectively trying to stiff the staff. What people choose to do (remove tips, tip extravagantly, pay the basic auto tip) is a personal decision. For those of us from a non-tipping culture there is surely nothing wrong in asking for clarification of how the system works before making our decision.

 

I agree, it's a personal decision. We just want to make you aware of the consequences of your personal decision on the staff that works so hard to make sure you have a great cruise.

 

Celebrity could eliminate all this blather by simply calling it what it is: a hotel service charge or a resort service charge. And it should be a mandatory hotel/resort service charge. In my view, that's the only thing that is fair to the staff. Resorts do not allow their customers to remove the resort service charge or fee and I don't think Celebrity should either.

 

Then we could have long discussions about to tip or not to tip :D. But those decisions wouldn't as severely impact the staff and probably would not be as heated.

 

So, to keep your blood pressure in the normal range, I recommend you view it as a hotel/resort service charge and focus on enjoying your cruise!

[Suzy Smith]

 

So, to keep your blood pressure in the normal range, I recommend you view it as a hotel/resort service charge and focus on enjoying your cruise!

 

My blood pressure is just fine - I am not the one who said they were angry.;)

[BKFlowerMound]

BKFlowerMound

 

I am sorry if I have made you angry, but can't figure out what I have done to upset you. I understand that you do not approve of people removing the tips, but in my post I said I never remove the tips. In fact I like select dining and pay the tips in advance.

 

I was responding to a poster who suggested that the minimum wage system in Europe was the same as the US, in that tips are factored into the calculations and the employer can therefore pay less than the statutory minimum wage. You did actually confirm that US employers can pay as low as $2.13 per hour.

 

Not sure why tipping is such an emotive subject on these boards - but from what I have seen as soon as anyone queries the system, the reflex action of some posters is to accuse them of effectively trying to stiff the staff. What people choose to do (remove tips, tip extravagantly, pay the basic auto tip) is a personal decision. For those of us from a non-tipping culture there is surely nothing wrong in asking for clarification of how the system works before making our decision.

 

When I first read your post, it did make me angry (just a little) because I was seeing things that might not have been there. I thought that you were equating the American tipping culture with cruise line tipping culture, making negative statements about American as opposed to European wage laws with little knowledge of either, and were setting up justifications for stiffing the staff. As I reread your posts, I couldn't tell if any of those things were really your beliefs or just my imagination, though your assertion about what Malta must require was clearly wrong. I am glad that you clarified that you aren't the person that I thought you might be.

 

What I can say is that this summer on our Med cruise, I saw European after European waiting in line to remove their tips. Our room steward, a European herself, talked about the issue with us and expressed her gratitude that we had prepaid our tips. It is one thing to remove tips out of ignorance. It is another thing entirely to know the deal and still remove the tips; that's evil.

 

I think the emotion that comes in these tipping threads comes from seeing sights like I saw this past summer. While I truly believe you that you aren't trying to stiff anyone, many (perhaps most) of those who complain about cruise line tipping ARE trying to justify stiffing the hard working people on the ships out of a measly $11.50 a day.

 

All that said, I don't really like the system either. I would prefer that it were always a mandatory service charge - like a resort fee. I'm afraid, however, that if that were the case, the IRS or the State would try to tax it. (I understand that your Inland Revenue is just as vicious as our IRS, and nothing compares to the chiseling Spanish taxing authority who collected VAT throughout my Med cruise).

 

You can't see emotion in these posts. It would be better to talk about this stuff in person at the Martini Bar. I hope that happens some day.

 

I hope you have a great cruise and tip well too ;).

[Suzy Smith]

When I first read your post, it did make me angry (just a little) because I was seeing things that might not have been there. I thought that you were equating the American tipping culture with cruise line tipping culture, making negative statements about American as opposed to European wage laws with little knowledge of either, and were setting up justifications for stiffing the staff. As I reread your posts, I couldn't tell if any of those things were really your beliefs or just my imagination, though your assertion about what Malta must require was clearly wrong. I am glad that you clarified that you aren't the person that I thought you might be.

 

What I can say is that this summer on our Med cruise, I saw European after European waiting in line to remove their tips. Our room steward, a European herself, talked about the issue with us and expressed her gratitude that we had prepaid our tips. It is one thing to remove tips out of ignorance. It is another thing entirely to know the deal and still remove the tips; that's evil.

 

I think the emotion that comes in these tipping threads comes from seeing sights like I saw this past summer. While I truly believe you that you aren't trying to stiff anyone, many (perhaps most) of those who complain about cruise line tipping ARE trying to justify stiffing the hard working people on the ships out of a measly $11.50 a day.

 

All that said, I don't really like the system either. I would prefer that it were always a mandatory service charge - like a resort fee. I'm afraid, however, that if that were the case, the IRS or the State would try to tax it. (I understand that your Inland Revenue is just as vicious as our IRS, and nothing compares to the chiseling Spanish taxing authority who collected VAT throughout my Med cruise).

 

You can't see emotion in these posts. It would be better to talk about this stuff in person at the Martini Bar. I hope that happens some day.

 

I hope you have a great cruise and tip well too ;).

 

I agree with you that it would be better to have a mandatory service charge, the fact that Celebrity refers to the charge as a gratuity is what causes the problem in the first place.

 

In my experience, most people want to do the right thing in life and I am sure most cruisers tip what they consider to be fair. But I do feel that the frequent angry reactions on CC whenever the subject is raised will not change anybody's mind - probably just the opposite as no-one likes to be lectured.

 

Maybe we will meet on a cruise and be able discuss this in person at the Martini Bar. I would certainly be happy to buy you a drink (including the 15% "gratuity");)