Prepare to be insulted !

[Deckhandoug]

Clicky right here

 

Thank you

 

It's very interesting

 

Ratings for various ships we've been discussing:

 

MSC Poesia 3.9 out of 5

 

MSC Divina 4.2 out of 5

 

HAL Nieuw Amsterdam 4.0 out of 5

 

HAL Eurodam 4.2 out of 5

 

Carnival Breeze 4.2 out of 5

 

So it appears like like everything:)

[AmoMondo]

I only studied statistics relatively late on in life (26) but when I did I thought it should be compulsory education to all at primary level onwards to interpret the appalling information that is constantly fed to us by politicians, newscasters and now, here.

 

You are wasting your time Tim, you won't convince them.

 

I also came to statistics late, even later than you, at the age of 33. So I do understand where you are coming from. Representative samples and sample sizes are key to statistics and prevention ting skewed results.

 

Working in Credit Risk, there are sectors where we do not attempt to build a probability of default model because we do not have big enough samples of both good and bad loans to be predictive of the population.

 

Lies, diamond lies and statistics!

[Skipper Tim]

Where are these hundreds of thousands of reviews?

 

You are assuming that all these non existent reviews would be positive.

 

You are the one telling readers to ignore all the bad published reviews, that you know for a fact that it is a great cruise line.

 

Why is your opinion accurate and the published bad reviews inaccurate?

 

There are good and bad reviews published, if you accept the good then you must also accept the bad.

 

You may not agree, but that doesn't give you the right to assume that all bad reviews are in accurate and that their are thousands of unwritten positive reviews.

 

CC has published reviews from its reader base, a group of peers and the majority of CC readers are just like the reviewers.

 

Where's your facts?

 

You are missing this point: the results are accurate because of it being an USA oriented website, with members accustomed to USA style cruising

 

I bet you have no problem with the reviews that support your opinion.

 

My goodness! What a reaction? All I did was to point out that CC reviews are not a representative sample of those who cruise on MSC.

 

It may be a shock, but most people are not from the U.S. MSC operate in geographically and culturally diverse markets. Expectations differ the World over. Besides CC is not a US-only club. It is global. In the UK, CC is http://www.cruisecritic.co.uk.

 

A U.S. domination of CC does not mean that the US-way is the only way. Those who believe this desperately need educating.

[Skipper Tim]

Lies, diamond lies and statistics!

 

I think your spell-checker is hyperactive! I frequently have arguments with mine.

[papcx]

I don't know what all this talk about statistics is proving.

 

As my DW says if 97 out of 104 women say its the best eye liner, then it's the best eye liner!

 

Now that's a diamond lie for you :)

[sidari]

"All I did was to point out that CC reviews are not a representative sample of those who cruise on MSC"

 

This is a true comment because around 98% of European cruise passengers rarely if ever read these boards! so therefore the small amount of reviews on cruise critic many who are from NA cruisers are miniscule compared to the number of people who cruise with MSC.

 

Most of those posted want MSC to be just like the rest of the USA owned and run cruise lines and do not seem to be either prepared or able to adapt outside their comfort zone.

 

Would you go on holiday to say Greece and expect it to be the same as at home, if so then what is the point of leaving home?

[moomoocow]

My goodness! What a reaction? All I did was to point out that CC reviews are not a representative sample of those who cruise on MSC.

 

It may be a shock, but most people are not from the U.S. MSC operate in geographically and culturally diverse markets. Expectations differ the World over. Besides CC is not a US-only club. It is global. In the UK, CC is http://www.cruisecritic.co.uk.

 

A U.S. domination of CC does not mean that the US-way is the only way. Those who believe this desperately need educating.

 

Indeed.

 

An oft-quoted grumble/observation by cheerleaders, naysayers and those who are ambivalent on these boards is this

 

"There were very few English speakers on board the cruise"

 

Yet the vast majority of posters to these boards and the vast majority of reviewers are from the UK or the USA.

 

Therefore it can be deduced that the reviewers and posters are NOT a representative sample of MSC's customers to date. Otherwise 65% of the reviews/posts would be in Italian, 20% in German, 10% in other languages and 5% from the English speaking contingent.

 

This will change come Divina Caribbean cruising as a large percentage of those pax will be from the US. As evidenced by the increasing number of questions from American cruisers about their forthcoming Divina cruises.

 

Lemon entry.

[Deckhandoug]

You are wasting your time Tim, you won't convince them.

 

I also came to statistics late, even later than you, at the age of 33. So I do understand where you are coming from. Representative samples and sample sizes are key to statistics and prevention ting skewed results.

 

Working in Credit Risk, there are sectors where we do not attempt to build a probability of default model because we do not have big enough samples of both good and bad loans to be predictive of the population.

 

Lies, diamond lies and statistics!

 

Of course it's not a scientific, laboratory controlled sampling, it's based on the cruisers that bother to write a review on CC, nothing more.

 

What is known is that it's a predominately US citizen sampling that's used to the USA style of cruising, and it's also READ (predominately) by the same US cruisers that have the same expectations as the reviewers.

 

Since it's not scientific, and YOUR opinions/reviews aren't either, then we either accept all of them or none of them.

 

I, for one, fully believe you two have a great time on MSC , love it and many will appreciate your reviews and insight.

 

I also believe the many posters that didn't like MSC for whatever reason, the experience was negative and very real for them, and some of their peers would benefit from the information.

 

If we discount the CC reviews should we discount the German review site results? It's very unscientific.

[Deckhandoug]

My goodness! What a reaction? All I did was to point out that CC reviews are not a representative sample of those who cruise on MSC.

 

It may be a shock, but most people are not from the U.S. MSC operate in geographically and culturally diverse markets. Expectations differ the World over. Besides CC is not a US-only club. It is global. In the UK, CC is http://www.cruisecritic.co.uk.

 

A U.S. domination of CC does not mean that the US-way is the only way. Those who believe this desperately need educating.

 

I may have worded my response incorrectly, If we had a poll based upon scientific methods as you pointed out it would be more accurate.

 

When I said following your parameters I meant discounting the reviews written here because most are written by USA reviewers, and you feel it is an unfair review, but yours is accurate because you know better.

 

The forums and reviews are the same , CC-US and CC-UK

 

The reviews are a representative sample and appropriate for the dominant membership-US and UK cruisers.

[Deckhandoug]

Indeed.

 

An oft-quoted grumble/observation by cheerleaders, naysayers and those who are ambivalent on these boards is this

 

"There were very few English speakers on board the cruise"

 

Yet the vast majority of posters to these boards and the vast majority of reviewers are from the UK or the USA.

 

Therefore it can be deduced that the reviewers and posters are NOT a representative sample of MSC's customers to date. Otherwise 65% of the reviews/posts would be in Italian, 20% in German, 10% in other languages and 5% from the English speaking contingent.

 

This will change come Divina Caribbean cruising as a large percentage of those pax will be from the US. As evidenced by the increasing number of questions from American cruisers about their forthcoming Divina cruises.

 

Lemon entry.

 

Yes, and they come to a website by and for their peers to get an American perspective and opinion on a cruise.

[Skipper Tim]

The reviews are a representative sample and appropriate for the dominant membership-US and UK cruisers.

 

Dominance should not be domination. The CC readership is not homogeneous as you infer and trying to enforce or even passively accept that sounds, to me, fascist.

 

A cruise review is necessarily personal and it will often reveal more about the author than it does about the ship. On the larger scale, the hysterical reaction from many MSC reviewers reveals far more about the demographics of Cruise Critic than it does about MSC.

[Deckhandoug]

Dominance should not be domination. The CC readership is not homogeneous as you infer and trying to enforce or even passively accept that sounds, to me, fascist.

 

A cruise review is necessarily personal and it will often reveal more about the author than it does about the ship. On the larger scale, the hysterical reaction from many MSC reviewers reveals far more about the demographics of Cruise Critic than it does about MSC.

 

What? Tim, Fascist? really? First you tell us that MSC reviews are wrong on CC because it's a USA dominated website. You can't change facts because you disagree with them.

 

When I agree and tell you that's why the reviews are appropriate, you tell me it's not homogeneous.

 

CC isn't trying to be THE worldwide authority on cruises or reviews, there are no provisions to change to another language like many international websites, as has been pointed out, there are German, Italian etc sites that do the same.

 

Of course reviews are personal, and they reflect the users of this sites experiences.

 

I agree, CC reviews reflect the demographics of the readership, exactly as it should be.

 

As far as hysterical reactions from MSC reviewers, I whole hardily agree, the reviews by some don't accurately reflect MSC at all.

 

The beauty of it all Tim, is that it's all just opinion, some agree with ours, some don't, that's all.

 

Anyway, enough on the subject, let the cruisers write the reviews based on their experiences, it's not a personal jab at you.

 

:)

[pmacher61]

Cruise Critic Cruisers' Choice Poll

• Rankings are based on ratings given by our members in published member reviews.
   
  
• Ships must have a minimum number (10) of member reviews and ratings in a particular category in order to be included in that category's top 10 list.
   
  
• Ratings shown have been rounded to the first decimal place, although they are calculated to the 8th decimal place and ordered as such; in the unlikely event of an exact tie, tied ships will instead order by the highest number of records entered, then alphabetically.
  

Overall Ratings

 

Sort by:

 

Diamant 5.4

Seabourn Quest 5.1

Celebrity Xpedition 5.1

River Empress 5.1

River Baroness 5.0

Disney Fantasy 5.0

S.S. Antoinette 5.0

Seabourn Legend 5.0

River Royale 5.0

Wilderness Discoverer 4.9

Viking Kirov 4.8

Celebrity Equinox 4.8

Crystal Serenity 4.8

Tahitian Princess 4.8

River Ambassador 4.8

Azamara Journey 4.8

Crystal Symphony 4.8

Wind Surf 4.8

Prince Albert II 4.8

Riviera 4.8

Azamara Quest 4.7

Paul Gauguin 4.7

Serenade of the Seas 4.7

Seven Seas Mariner 4.7

SeaDream II 4.7

Viking Spirit 4.7

Saga Ruby 4.7

River Queen 4.7

Oasis of the Seas 4.7

Freedom of the Seas 4.7

Viking Danube 4.7

Celebrity Eclipse 4.7

Pacific Princess 4.7

Avalon Tapestry 4.7

Star Flyer 4.7

SeaDream I 4.7

Viking Emerald 4.7

Allure of the Seas 4.7

Amsterdam 4.6

Seabourn Odyssey 4.6

Mariner of the Seas 4.6

Carnival Miracle 4.6

Disney Dream 4.6

Liberty of the Seas 4.6

Celebrity Silhouette 4.6

Silver Whisper 4.6

Avalon Tranquility 4.6

Disney Magic 4.6

Jewel of the Seas 4.6

River Duchess 4.6

Celebrity Reflection 4.6

Marina 4.6

Celebrity Solstice 4.5

Radiance of the Seas 4.5

Noordam 4.5

Coral Princess 4.5

Silver Explorer 4.5

Seabourn Sojourn 4.5

Finnmarken 4.5

Ruby Princess 4.5

Nautica 4.5

Eurodam 4.5

River Beatrice 4.5

Celebrity Constellation 4.5

Explorer of the Seas 4.5

Seabourn Pride 4.5

Viking Pride 4.5

Navigator of the Seas 4.5

AmaCerto 4.5

Black Watch 4.5

Carnival Legend 4.4

Disney Wonder 4.4

Island Princess 4.4

Sapphire Princess 4.4

Seabourn Spirit 4.4

Enchantment of the Seas 4.4

Thomson Spirit 4.4

Rhapsody of the Seas 4.4

Diamond Princess 4.4

Silver Spirit 4.4

Voyager of the Seas 4.4

Carnival Conquest 4.4

Adventure of the Seas 4.4

Nieuw Amsterdam 4.4

Westerdam 4.4

Midnatsol 4.4

Carnival Valor 4.4

Celebrity Summit 4.4

Independence of the Seas 4.4

Oosterdam 4.4

Viking Prestige 4.4

Majesty of the Seas 4.4

Carnival Liberty 4.4

Brilliance of the Seas 4.4

Regatta 4.4

Celebrity Century 4.4

Seven Seas Navigator 4.4

Carnival Freedom 4.4

Grandeur of the Seas 4.4

Carnival Sunshine 4.4

Wind Star 4.4

Caribbean Princess 4.4

Viking Sun 4.4

Ocean Princess 4.3

Seven Seas Voyager 4.3

Golden Princess 4.3

Splendour of the Seas 4.3

Star Princess 4.3

Celebrity Infinity 4.3

Zuiderdam 4.3

Celebrity Millennium 4.3

Carnival Elation 4.3

Emerald Princess 4.3

Royal Clipper 4.3

Viking Odin 4.3

Norwegian Jewel 4.3

Silver Shadow 4.3

Carnival Victory 4.3

Wind Spirit 4.3

Norwegian Pearl 4.3

Carnival Inspiration 4.3

Crown Princess 4.3

Viking Helvetia 4.3

Carnival Glory 4.3

Vision of the Seas 4.3

Carnival Pride 4.3

Carnival Triumph 4.3

Prinsendam 4.3

Veendam 4.3

Legend of the Seas 4.3

Avalon Panorama 4.3

Avalon Scenery 4.3

Viking Legend 4.3

Thomson Dream 4.2

Ryndam 4.2

Maasdam 4.2

Carnival Spirit 4.2

Carnival Imagination 4.2

Statendam 4.2

Volendam 4.2

Sun Princess 4.2

Fram 4.2

Monarch of the Seas 4.2

Carnival Fascination 4.2

Queen Mary 2 (QM2) 4.2

Carnival Fantasy 4.2

Thomson Celebration 4.2

Carnival Ecstasy 4.2

Queen Victoria 4.2

Viking Europe 4.2

Carnival Dream 4.2

Grand Princess 4.2

Carnival Paradise 4.2

Silver Wind 4.2

Viking Schumann 4.2

Aurora 4.2

Carnival Sensation 4.2

Norwegian Jade 4.2

Carnival Magic 4.2

Norwegian Sun 4.2

Dawn Princess 4.1

Norwegian Spirit 4.1

Norwegian Epic 4.1

Rotterdam 4.1

Ventura 4.1

Sea Princess 4.1

Carnival Destiny 4.1

Oriana 4.1

Norwegian Dawn 4.1

Azura 4.1

Tere Moana 4.1

Viking Ingvar 4.1

Norwegian Gem 4.1

Pride of America 4.1

Norwegian Wind 4.1

Thomson Majesty 4.1

Carnival Splendor 4.1

Zaandam 4.1

American Queen 4.1

Norwegian Star 4.1

Viking Embla 4.1

Oceana 4.1

Avalon Affinity 4.1

Viking Sky 4.1

Balmoral 4.1

Viking Helgi 4.0

Carnival Breeze 4.0

Viking Njord 4.0

Norwegian Crown 4.0

Norwegian Sky 4.0

Costa Fascinosa 4.0

Adonia 4.0

Silver Cloud 4.0

Viking Neptune 4.0

Costa Atlantica 4.0

Aegean Odyssey 4.0

Bahamas Celebration 4.0

Saga Sapphire 4.0

L'Austral 4.0

Braemar 3.9

Arcadia 3.9

Boudicca 3.9

Viking Surkov 3.9

Costa Mediterranea 3.9

Queen Elizabeth 3.9

Queen of the West 3.9

Richard With 3.9

Norwegian Breakaway 3.9

Pacific Jewel 3.8

Viking Aegir 3.8

MSC Splendida 3.8

Costa Favolosa 3.7

Costa Fortuna 3.7

Marco Polo 3.7

MSC Fantasia 3.7

MSC Armonia 3.7

Costa Serena 3.7

MSC Divina 3.7

Island Escape 3.7

Ocean Countess 3.6

Costa Magica 3.6

MSC Lirica 3.6

SuperStar Virgo 3.6

Amakatarina 3.6

Costa Victoria 3.6

Costa Deliziosa 3.6

Costa Pacifica 3.6

Costa Concordia 3.6

Costa Luminosa 3.5

Pride of Aloha 3.5

Discovery 3.5

MSC Sinfonia 3.5

MSC Poesia 3.5

Royal Princess 3.5

MSC Orchestra 3.5

Pacific Dawn 3.5

MSC Magnifica 3.4

Pacific Pearl 3.4

Costa Allegra 3.3

MSC Opera 3.3

Viking Idun 3.2

Costa Romantica 3.2

MSC Musica 3.1

Costa Classica 2.9

[moomoocow]

Welcome back Pmacher.

 

Hope you're well.

 

You've been away for a while?

[Skipper Tim]

Welcome back Pmacher.

 

Hope you're well.

 

You've been away for a while?

 

I hope the food was OK and you were not beaten up too much. Welcome back!

[Skipper Tim]

Re. 122,000 member reviews and counting - is that a statisitically significant sampling?

 

It depends upon the source of collection. If the total number of reviews is anything less than around two thirds of all cruise experiences then yes, because of self-selection, their opinions become statistically less valid.

 

Far more valid would be to pick two or three thousand people at random who had cruised with MSC. Then you could be sure within around 4% of accuracy. As is, there is no validity at all. It is elementary statistics. Look it up!

 

Ho hum.

[papcx]

Looks like I'll have to boot the desktop and get that ignore feature going again!

[Deckhandoug]

Looks like I'll have to boot the desktop and get that ignore feature going again!

 

The ostrich approach, through primitive, has its advantages I suppose

[Deckhandoug]

Re. 122,000 member reviews and counting - is that a statisitically significant sampling?

 

It depends upon the source of collection. If the total number of reviews is anything less than around two thirds of all cruise experiences then yes, because of self-selection, their opinions become statistically less valid.

 

Far more valid would be to pick two or three thousand people at random who had cruised with MSC. Then you could be sure within around 4% of accuracy. As is, there is no validity at all. It is elementary statistics. Look it up!

 

Ho hum.

 

So, your opinion is statistically insignificant

[moomoocow]

So, your opinion is statistically insignificant

 

All our opinions are individually insignificant.

 

I see no reason to believe otherwise.

 

No one opinion is more significant than another.

[Deckhandoug]

All our opinions are individually insignificant.

 

I see no reason to believe otherwise.

 

No one opinion is more significant than another.

 

Correct

 

Put them all together and a pattern emerges

 

Hence: Cruise Critic

[All aboard??]

Correct

 

Put them all together and a pattern emerges

 

Hence: Cruise Critic

 

I believe what we are trying to indicate is the following:

 

Carnival Cruise line:

 

21% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

14% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 67% of people who have cruised Carnival

 

Royal Caribbean

 

16% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

12% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 75% of people who have cruised Royal Caribbean

 

Norwegian Cruise Line

 

8% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

8% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 100% of people who have cruised Norwegian Cruise Line

 

Holland America

 

3% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

4% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 100% of people who have cruised Holland America

 

MSC Cruises

 

7% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

1% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 14% of people who have cruised MSC

 

Princess Cruises

 

6% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

7% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 100% of people who have cruised Princess Cruises

 

I do not believe that it is fair to apply patterns to a statistic that is only a reflection of 14% of opinions.

[Deckhandoug]

I believe what we are trying to indicate is the following:

 

Carnival Cruise line:

 

21% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

14% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 67% of people who have cruised Carnival

 

Royal Caribbean

 

16% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

12% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 75% of people who have cruised Royal Caribbean

 

Norwegian Cruise Line

 

8% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

8% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 100% of people who have cruised Norwegian Cruise Line

 

Holland America

 

3% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

4% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 100% of people who have cruised Holland America

 

MSC Cruises

 

7% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

1% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 14% of people who have cruised MSC

 

Princess Cruises

 

6% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

7% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 100% of people who have cruised Princess Cruises

 

I do not believe that it is fair to apply patterns to a statistic that is only a reflection of 14% of opinions.

 

Your conclusion is flawed, do you really believe there is a 100% review rate on any line?

[All aboard??]

Your conclusion is flawed, do you really believe there is a 100% review rate on any line?

 

We working with statistics here; the Cruise Review enthusiasts continually refer to them as being a true reflection of what cruisers think about certain lines....

 

However what they fail to understand is that in order for statistics to be credible the source needs to be a reflection of the market - you cannot regard 122000 as being a true reflection of the cruise market when only 1% of those people have cruised on a line that holds 7% of same market, which is the source is supposedly meant to represent.

 

I believe that in this world we have two kinds of people; one that follows Descartes and one that follows Thomas Gray......

[The_Big_M]

I believe what we are trying to indicate is the following:

 

Carnival Cruise line:

 

21% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

14% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 67% of people who have cruised Carnival

 

Royal Caribbean

 

16% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

12% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 75% of people who have cruised Royal Caribbean

 

Norwegian Cruise Line

 

8% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

8% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 100% of people who have cruised Norwegian Cruise Line

 

Holland America

 

3% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

4% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 100% of people who have cruised Holland America

 

MSC Cruises

 

7% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

1% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 14% of people who have cruised MSC

 

Princess Cruises

 

6% Market Share (pax numbers traveled)

 

7% Share of CC Reviews

 

CC Reviews reviews reflect opinions of 100% of people who have cruised Princess Cruises

 

I do not believe that it is fair to apply patterns to a statistic that is only a reflection of 14% of opinions.

 

I think the point is those are the wrong numbers to use.

 

It's not cruisecritic's share that's important as a proportion.

 

It's the absolute numbers reviewing that is the significance.

 

And then whether you have bias at all, which hasn't been touched on.