Internationally Adopted refused boarding?

[CI66774]

Did not get to the bottom before posting.

1. You can readopt a child in the U.S. to obtain a U.S. birth certificate.

2. Foreign adopted children are not legal residents; they are American citizens. It is an adoption visa and they are American citizens when the plane touches U.S. soil.

3. All foreign adoptees travel to America on a foreign passport which is a legal document and can be used by the parents as a passport for the child if the issuing country recognizes dual citizenship (not the best idea since the U.S. government has no obligation to help if there is a problem)

 

 

I still don't get why the parents just didn't get a passport for the kids?

 

I also have a DD from China. I agree a passport would have made things much better for this family. It eliminates any confusion or the possibility for error. However, Carnival has admitted this child should have boarded the cruise (granted, the family has stated this, not Carnival). If this is accurate, then Carnival must refund their money. It seems mistakes were made but, in the end, the family had the appropriate (although apparently confusing) paperwork. This is very bad press for Carnival. People are discussing it all over adoption forums, etc. It's in Carnival's best interest to resolve matters amicably and put this disaster behind them.

[SmogMonster]

Did not get to the bottom before posting.

1. You can readopt a child in the U.S. to obtain a U.S. birth certificate.

2. Foreign adopted children are not legal residents; they are American citizens. It is an adoption visa and they are American citizens when the plane touches U.S. soil.

3. All foreign adoptees travel to America on a foreign passport which is a legal document and can be used by the parents as a passport for the child if the issuing country recognizes dual citizenship (not the best idea since the U.S. government has no obligation to help if there is a problem)

 

 

I still don't get why the parents just didn't get a passport for the kids?

 

Gatormama, I am interested in your position. Have you adopted a foreign born child? If so, your experience was very different than mine. Also, was yours before 9/11? All immigration laws including adoption laws changed after that fateful day. It is not true that a child automatically becomes a citizen as soon as their plane touches down. It is automatic in SOME cases but not all. It depends on whether the child has an IR3 or IR4 visa. It is also not true that a foreign born child when readopted on the US gets a US Birth Certificate. What they get is a Certificate of Foreign Birth. Printed right on the Cert are the words "This document is not proof of US Citizenship". I know this because I adopted a foreign born Child under an IR4 Visa and readopted her in the US. She has a Certificate of Foreign Birth. We had to get a Certificate of US Citizenship which we could not apply for until we had the Cert of Foreign Birth.

[SmogMonster]

Gatormama,

I just read your first post and realized you adopted a girl from China. I am not sure why our experiences were different. Oh well.

I agree with you that it would have been a whole lot easier just to get a US Passport.

[cherylandtk]

Just a few points to hopefully help answer some questions raised in this post.

 

1. Having citizenship and proving it are two different things.

 

2. The NC Birth Certificate is not proof of citizenship. Since it is a re-issue, it really only proves the parents are the parents of the named child. The location of birth is still Ethiopia. It is not a US citizenship document.

 

3. Everyone born on US soil derives their citizenship from the location of their birth. Most of those also could claim citizenship based on parentage (born to at least one US citizen parent) but don't need to do so because their Birth Certificate trumps that need.

 

4. It is an assumption, but since the child has a valid green card, I suspect he is technically a citizen, but can only prove LPR status. It sounds like the parents apparently did not file the N600 to obtain the required citizenship document. For which they might want to blame their attorney.

 

5. Many people on these boards, as well as many cruiseline websites shorten the WHTI citizenship proof to "US birth certificate". Unfortunately, that is not accurate. It is tragic in some cases. Prior to this case there was a gentleman who brought his German birth certificate to a cruise. (He was a US citizen born abroad, he did have the appropriate US citizenship document in his mother's papers, but he did not know to bring it. He had called the cruise line and was told his German BC was OK !:eek: ) Not all US issued birth certificates are proof of US citizenship. Only the ones that show birth IN THE US and issued within one year of birth.

 

6. The documents presented by the parents, even if the original green card, do not meet the WHTI requirements for a closed loop cruise. They do meet the requirements for a foreign national, which the child probably is not. For THAT reason, the child could have cruised as an Ethiopian. But it technically is illegal for a US citizen to travel out of the US on a foreign passport.

 

7. Yes, this child is caught in a limbo-like gray area. He needs his parents to get him a US passport. They need to file for the Citizenship document appropriate in this case and then to obtain and maintain a valid US passport for their child. As the several posters who also adopted foreign born children have realized and done.

 

8. I agree with those who said this is mostly due to failure of the parents and their TA to correctly investigate the rules and the documentation requirement. Carnival has given them more goodwill compensation than their contract requires. Taking this to social media leaves a bad taste in the mouth of those who do follow the rules; parents are asking to get paid for making a mistake that THEY could have prevented.

[42CruiseCrazy]

I am sure they wanted to follow the "rules" and avoid all this but as can be seen from this thread the rules are very complicated and there are so many opinions about what the rules are. It is unfortunate that going to social media is often the only way for the "little guy" to get the big corporation's attention and get that corporation to seek a fair resolution.

 

 

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[CI66774]

Just a few points to hopefully help answer some questions raised in this post.

 

1. Having citizenship and proving it are two different things.

 

2. The NC Birth Certificate is not proof of citizenship. Since it is a re-issue, it really only proves the parents are the parents of the named child. The location of birth is still Ethiopia. It is not a US citizenship document.

 

3. Everyone born on US soil derives their citizenship from the location of their birth. Most of those also could claim citizenship based on parentage (born to at least one US citizen parent) but don't need to do so because their Birth Certificate trumps that need.

 

4. It is an assumption, but since the child has a valid green card, I suspect he is technically a citizen, but can only prove LPR status. It sounds like the parents apparently did not file the N600 to obtain the required citizenship document. For which they might want to blame their attorney.

 

5. Many people on these boards, as well as many cruiseline websites shorten the WHTI citizenship proof to "US birth certificate". Unfortunately, that is not accurate. It is tragic in some cases. Prior to this case there was a gentleman who brought his German birth certificate to a cruise. (He was a US citizen born abroad, he did have the appropriate US citizenship document in his mother's papers, but he did not know to bring it. He had called the cruise line and was told his German BC was OK !:eek: ) Not all US issued birth certificates are proof of US citizenship. Only the ones that show birth IN THE US and issued within one year of birth.

 

6. The documents presented by the parents, even if the original green card, do not meet the WHTI requirements for a closed loop cruise. They do meet the requirements for a foreign national, which the child probably is not. For THAT reason, the child could have cruised as an Ethiopian. But it technically is illegal for a US citizen to travel out of the US on a foreign passport.

 

7. Yes, this child is caught in a limbo-like gray area. He needs his parents to get him a US passport. They need to file for the Citizenship document appropriate in this case and then to obtain and maintain a valid US passport for their child. As the several posters who also adopted foreign born children have realized and done.

 

8. I agree with those who said this is mostly due to failure of the parents and their TA to correctly investigate the rules and the documentation requirement. Carnival has given them more goodwill compensation than their contract requires. Taking this to social media leaves a bad taste in the mouth of those who do follow the rules; parents are asking to get paid for making a mistake that THEY could have prevented.

 

The family has stated that Carnival admitted the mistake and told then the child, in fact, had the necessary documents. I agree obtaining a passport is best but it was not required on this closed loop cruse. The parents certainly are NOT asking to "get paid." They are asking for a full refund given Carnival's mistake. This will continue to circulate all around the internet and on adoption forums until Carnival gets it right. Full refund - period. As I have said before, Carnival certainly doesn't need another black eye. It's in its best interest for this to go away.

[CruisinCarps]

The family has stated that Carnival admitted the mistake and told then the child, in fact, had the necessary documents. I agree obtaining a passport is best but it was not required on this closed loop cruse. The parents certainly are NOT asking to "get paid." They are asking for a full refund given Carnival's mistake. This will continue to circulate all around the internet and on adoption forums until Carnival gets it right. Full refund - period. As I have said before, Carnival certainly doesn't need another black eye. It's in its best interest for this to go away.

I agree 100%!

 

The people on the FB page are right out pissing me off! I think they are trying to get a free cruise or something- they keep wanting to ignore what happened in this case and keep posting 'Should have had passports'...UGH! That is not the point! Carnival KNOWS that is not the point, have realized their mistake and has apologized- GOOD!

 

If Carnival was 100% responsible for this mistake, then they owe them nothing less than a full refund! (And honestly, I would expect my travel expenses, hotel stays before the cruise, kennel fees for my dogs, etc.- every cost that my family personally incurred so we could go on the trip that never happened!)

 

Carnival- do what is right by this family!!! I have followed the 'poop' cruise and other stuff that has happened with them. I haven't sailed yet on Carnival, but have seen where it seems they've done right by most who had something bad go wrong. (And sometimes even seeing them go beyond: to the point of refunding people their entire excursion fees who didn't like what was served on a buffet during an excursion- one item on the buffet in a foreign country for crying out loud.) Anyways, I have stood up for Carnival but absolutely won't if this family doesn't get their refund- a FULL refund!!

[Gailerina]

Everyone keeps saying carnival admitted they were wrong but has carnival issued a statement? Only the family has said this.

 

 

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[42CruiseCrazy]

Everyone keeps saying carnival admitted they were wrong but has carnival issued a statement? Only the family has said this.

 

 

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I agree. Carnival should issue a statement explaining how this happened and how it could have been avoided. Also what Carnival has offered to do to make things right. It could change a PR disaster into an opportunity.

 

 

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[Gailerina]

I agree. Carnival should issue a statement explaining how this happened and how it could have been avoided. Also what Carnival has offered to do to make things right. It could change a PR disaster into an opportunity.

 

 

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Well yes but also clarify the situation. For all we know it wasn't their fault. None if us really know.

 

 

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[MsTabbyKats]

She missed that part.:rolleyes:

 

NO.....she didn't miss that part.

 

They had an Ethiopian passport which proves the child is Ethiopian.

 

They didn't have an American passport.

 

Hopefully this thread will teach parents of foreign born children that having a passport is a much easier way to prove citizenship...than fumbling around with all kinds of papers and images on a phone.

Edited November 2, 2013 by MsTabbyKats

[skridge]

I do not understand why this was not escalated to a supervisor. Since the ship would have debarked passengers there should have been US Customs and Border patrol agents who could have been brought in to look at the documentation. We saw this happen in Galveston with questionable documentation. The officer looked at the documentation presented and said it was OK and that family was permitted to board. Something is just not right with this situation, so I looked up the NC protocol.

 

"North Carolina residents are encouraged to also adopt through a North Carolina court upon return to this state. The law does not distinguish between a domestic adoption and an inter-country adoption, so the basic procedure for legalizing an adoption must be followed. A certified copy or the original document of the foreign adoption decree will serve in lieu of the otherwise required consents to the adoption. Once a Decree of Adoption is issued, the adoptive parents will receive a Certificate of Identification from the North Carolina Vital Records Office. The child's birth record will be recorded in North Carolina, though indicating the country of birth as it actually was. This will eliminate the necessity for the parents to attempt to obtain a new birth record for the child from the country of origin - often an impossible task."

 

It looks like NC issues a Certificate of Identification, not a birth certificate, so it may not be a WHTI compliant document. It also state the country the child was born in as place of birth, so it would not prove citizenship.

Having adopted internationally twice in the state of North Carolina, I can tell you that when you go through the readoption process, which the family in question did, you get a birth certificate.

[skridge]

The bottom line is that the child had a green card, the parents did not bring the green card. The web site specifically says that pictures or copies are not acceptable, only the original documents. If they had brought the green card no problem.

 

They did not need the green card. They had a birth certificate.

[skridge]

NO.....she didn't miss that part.

 

They had an Ethiopian passport which proves the child is Ethiopian.

 

They didn't have an American passport.

 

Hopefully this thread will teach parents of foreign born children that having a passport is a much easier way to prove citizenship...than fumbling around with all kinds of papers and images on a phone.

 

As a parent of two foreign born children, if I brought my children on a closed loop cruise and had there birth certificates like this family I would expect to be let on the freaking ship. Why would you go through the expense and trouble of getting a passport when you don't need too.

[skridge]

Let's look at it both ways:

 

As a Foreign National

The child would not have been able to travel to the Bahamas because the Ethiopian passport didn't have a VISA for the child to visit the Bahamas.

 

As a US Citizen

The child could not travel out of the country because it seems the certificate the parents have is not evidence of US Citizenship and therefore is not a WHTI document which can be used for closed loop travel.

 

They had a birth certificate .

[skridge]

I think I may have discovered the problem...Many, including myself, have asked why carnival did not accept the adopted child's us birth certificate. I was looking at my adopted daughters US birth Certificate. What is actually is, is a United States Certificate of foreign Birth. It also says that the certificate is not proof of US Citizenship. When we readopted our daughter in the US, we were told that we also needed to get a Certificate of US Citizenship which we applied for and received. Only the Cert. of US Citizenship proves Citizenship.

 

In order to board a cruise ship, proof of citizenship must be presented. Based on the families own blog, they did not have this documentation. The US birth certificate they refer to is a cert of foreign birth. Since the green card was a digital copy, it was also not usable.

 

This is not true. I have adopted two foreign children in the state of North Carolina. I went through the same re-adoption process this family went through. We received an embossed raised seal birth certificate for both children.

[skridge]

I just read the update to the father's blog and he reported that the Carnival rep offered the family a replacement cruise because (after doing more research) they concluded that "the child could have sailed" admitting that a mistake had been made (not clear if the Customs agent or Carnival agent made the wrong call) They have declined to accept the cruise because they do not wish to travel to Florida. In my opinion, Carnival has made a reasonable offer and I hope that the parents of this child will find a way to accept the offer and treat the family to a nice cruise sometime in the future.:)

 

If you go to there blog you will see that they were only offered a quarter refund and replacement cruises. They should have offered them a full refund because it was there mistake.

[Gailerina]

This is not true. I have adopted two foreign children in the state of North Carolina. I went through the same re-adoption process this family went through. We received an embossed raised seal birth certificate for both children.

 

I think a lot of people are confused on what documents the family had. We can only take their word also.

 

 

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[CI66774]

I think it's time for Carnival to cut its PR losses and just refund the money to this family. Every minute that goes by, people (especially in the adoption community) are discussing this and, potentially, deciding not to cruise Carnival because of it. Bad PR is bad PR. I certainly wouldn't cruise a line that, for whatever reason, appears to treat adoptive families badly.

[Gailerina]

I think it's time for Carnival to cut its PR losses and just refund the money to this family. Every minute that goes by, people (especially in the adoption community) are discussing this and, potentially, deciding not to cruise Carnival because of it. Bad PR is bad PR. I certainly wouldn't cruise a line that, for whatever reason, appears to treat adoptive families badly.

 

The problem is wanting to use 1 case where the parents share blame to make such a false opinion as if all adoptive families are treated badley

 

 

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[CI66774]

The problem is wanting to use 1 case where the parents share blame to make such a false opinion as if all adoptive families are treated badley

 

 

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First of all - opinions are "personal views" or "personal judgments." As such, they can't be "false" as you contend. Secondly, you're assuming the parents were somehow at fault. There's been no evidence to suggest it. Parents state they had a valid birth certificate for the child. That was all that was required on a closed loop cruise. Lastly, you might want to read my post again - more thoroughly than apparently you did, as I stated

"I certainly wouldn't cruise a line that, for whatever reason, appears to treat adoptive families badly." See, I used the word "appears" indicating that it's not necessarily a fact that Carnival does - but it "appears" they do - two different meanings.

[Tithonus]

NO.....she didn't miss that part.

 

They had an Ethiopian passport which proves the child is Ethiopian.

 

They didn't have an American passport.

 

Each time I look at your post, it doesn't state that.

[skridge]

I think a lot of people are confused on what documents the family had. We can only take their word also.

 

 

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No confusion here. They had a birth certificate. That is all they should have needed.

[MsTabbyKats]

As a parent of two foreign born children, if I brought my children on a closed loop cruise and had there birth certificates like this family I would expect to be let on the freaking ship. Why would you go through the expense and trouble of getting a passport when you don't need too.

 

Because it's not much of an expense and it isn't very much trouble....and it will simplify life. That's why!

[MsTabbyKats]

Each time I look at your post, it doesn't state that.

 

Since the issue was whether or not the child was an American citizen, I figured that "they didn't have a passport" would be understood as "American" passport.

 

My husband has lots of nationalities (moved around) but he is an American citizen and travels only with his American passport. My son is also multi-national....and I got him his first passport when he was under a year old...just to avoid confusion.

 

Perhaps and probably Carnival made an error...but when there are so many variables involved....a passport is a very small investment to save a lot of time and explanations. It doesn't matter what is valid and what isn't..... people make mistakes. And as a parent, it's your job to simplify your child's life and paperwork.

Edited November 2, 2013 by MsTabbyKats