Why such a small flag?

[AmazedByCruising]

During my mission to understand everything about my first cruise (because it was such an awesome experience), here's another question. On board of the MS Rotterdam I noticed that it had a very small flag. Small as in: another ship not too far away would need binoculars to recognize it if it wasn't for modern technology. It's tiny.

 

I'm quite sure the Dutch history of HAL is not something to be ashamed of, and flying the Dutch flag has probably even some major disadvantages compared to a Panamese or Liberian flag.

 

Maybe the painter in the second attached picture exaggerated the size of the flags a bit, but there must be a solid reason that the contemporary flag is hardly visible in the first one.

[InTheWASide]

I've always noticed very small flags on the bow but the flags on the aft deck tend to be large almost sometimes bordering on ridiculous.

 

Not sure of any reasons/history/traditions behind that but keep in mind the flags are always up on the main masts all the way up and forward as well as on the aft deck, usually mounted to a device all the way aft on the pool deck

[barante]

You might as well ask what is the life expectancy of a ship's flag. Not log, in the wind, sun and rain. Believe it or not, a smaller flag lasts longer than a big one, which would rip easily.

[ShipsAreTheBest]

There's actually a good explanation. The flag at the bow is referred to as the jack (flown from the jack staff). On HAL ships (perhaps all Dutch ships), a small version of the Dutch flag is flown. On British (and Bermudian) and Bahamian ships, the company house flag is flown. On US ships under government ownership (think Navy) the "jack" is flown - (which is the blue field with 50 stars from our flag). It is not the same as the ensign, hence the size is smaller.

 

On the stern, on all ships regardless of registry, the national ensign is flown. Here it is larger in size to be easily recognizable. It is flown from the ensign staff (on the stern) when docked or at anchor. When underway, and within territorial waters, it shifts to the gaff on the mainmast (aft). On modern ships, there is no main mast so it flies from the foremast, or more properly now the radar mast, in the center and highest position.

 

On the ss Rotterdam (V), there was a gaff on the crossbar between the smoke uptakes. Whenever she was underway in territorial waters, you would see the Dutch ensign flying up from the gaff between the stacks.

[Topsham]

There are usually two flags shown flown on board Holland America.

 

First the Netherlands ENSIGN... the three striped flags, upper red, middle white and below the blue. The ENSIGN usually about a 5 yard flag.

 

When the ship at dock or at anchor the ensign is flown from the stern. When the ship is underway the ensign will be flown from the GAFF at the signal mast. Not from the yardarm... just at the gaff. The correct usage method is two have two.... one at the stern and at the moment the ropes are let go, the stern ensign is lowered and the gaff ensign is raised at the same time. Because the signal mast is not too high.... the ensign from the gaff MIGHT be a bit smaller .... 3 yard flag. If it is a very windy day..... change to a smaller flag.... but the 3 yard flag would do.

 

On the bow there is another Netherlands flag to be flown from the JACK STAFF. It would be a small flag... might be a 1 yard. It is called the 'JACK'. The JACK is flown when in port or when arriving or leaving a port.

 

So...this the reason why there are two different sizes of the flags... the larger ENSIGN and the smaller JACK.

 

Sometime you might see a JACK on the bow... and on the stern a large ENSIGN.... a bit different design of flag. The red/white/blue are the standard ENSIGN but with in the middle a white disc an on it is a silver (grey) anchor below a crown. This means that the captain in command on the ship is a Naval Reserve Officer.

 

The way flags are flown are usually in the same manner, but the flags shown can be different between different countries and between different owners.

 

Example.... Cunard ships. They may flight a red ensign OR a blue ensign. Blue if the captain is a Naval Reserve Officer. It is a plain red... if a Union Flag in the corner. It is red ensign for ships are UK, Bermuda, Gibraltar and a few other places. Princess... same. Instead of a small Union Jack (with a thin white border) flown from the bow.... they will fly a small CUNARD stem jack or for a PRINCESS stem jack.

 

Some ships will fly large ensigns on small ships and some small ensigns on large ships!

 

Stephen

[Topsham]

Hey Ships Are The Best...

 

Our postings were sent together. For sure... no doubt anyone reading this thread will get the same answer!

 

Stephen:)

[InTheWASide]

Question for Topsham and Shipsarethebest:

 

Thanks for the technical explanation. I love reading about stuff like this.

 

Got me thinking and it MAY just be coincidental...

 

Does the flag up front (the jack) have ANYTHING at all to do with why the flag of the UK is the "Union Jack"?

 

Just thinking out loud.

[Topsham]

The 'jack' usually to means to be a 'small flag'.

 

The Union Flag (England & Scotland) was only later came to be known as the Union Jack as the flag to be flown from the bow of a ship.

 

That is the VERY short answer. That would take all day!

 

Stephen

[navybankerteacher]

Question for Topsham and Shipsarethebest:

 

Thanks for the technical explanation. I love reading about stuff like this.

 

Got me thinking and it MAY just be coincidental...

 

Does the flag up front (the jack) have ANYTHING at all to do with why the flag of the UK is the "Union Jack"?

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

The British "Union Jack" is the blue rectangular flag with the diagonal, vertical, and horizontal red and white stripes - which is generally recognized as the British flag. The British Royal navy flag, the "White Ensign" is white, with a vertical and horizontal Red Cross, and with the Union Jack in the upper left corner -- this is flown from the stern in port and from the mast at sea --- similarly to the U.S. practice of our flag - and, in both cases, with the Union Jack (for the U.S. - the just the blue field with 50 stars) flown from the bow "jack staff" when in port.

[Boytjie]

Question for Topsham and Shipsarethebest:

 

Thanks for the technical explanation. I love reading about stuff like this.

 

Got me thinking and it MAY just be coincidental...

 

Does the flag up front (the jack) have ANYTHING at all to do with why the flag of the UK is the "Union Jack"?

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack#Terminology

[Topsham]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack#Terminology

 

 

 

 

I did try to warn you!

[Globaliser]

Maybe the painter in the second attached picture exaggerated the size of the flags a bit ...

I suspect that there used to be a reason why you'd want to make sure that your colours could be easily identified in the days of much poorer telescope technology: it might stop someone else firing cannonballs at you at very high speed.

[Topsham]

g. The British Royal navy flag, the "White Ensign" is white, with a vertical and horizontal Red Cross, and with the Union Jack in the upper left corner.

 

 

 

 

To be correct the.. the ROYAL NAVY, never British Royal Navy.

 

You might have ROYAL NETHERLANDS NAVY or ROYAL NORWEGIAN NAVY but for Britain... just ROYAL NAVY. The fleet was once the greatest in the world... just needs ROYAL NAVY.

 

Just as in UNITED STATES NAVY. No need to call it 'UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NAVY'.

 

 

The 'White Ensign' came from the colour flag. There was once three fleets in the Royal Navy. They were called from the White Fleet, the Red and the Blue. The most senior fleet was of the Red. In the 1860 there was a decision to use the White Ensign for the Royal Navy. The Blue Ensign would be flown for the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. The Merchant flag was given by the Red. The Red Ensign called 'The Red Duster'.

 

During the Great War the Royal Navy had the White Ensign, but when the ships were going into battle the ship would fly the White Ensign but there was a problem.... the Germany naval ensign was similar is design... with the base white. It was confusing at a distance so... when the Royal Navy going into flew the Red Ensigns.

 

Stephen

[Folk Singer]

During my mission to understand everything about my first cruise (because it was such an awesome experience), here's another question. On board of the MS Rotterdam I noticed that it had a very small flag. Small as in: another ship not too far away would need binoculars to recognize it if it wasn't for modern technology. It's tiny.

 

I'm quite sure the Dutch history of HAL is not something to be ashamed of, and flying the Dutch flag has probably even some major disadvantages compared to a Panamese or Liberian flag.

 

Maybe the painter in the second attached picture exaggerated the size of the flags a bit, but there must be a solid reason that the contemporary flag is hardly visible in the first one.

 

 

They do fly a bigger flag on the Main Mast. All Cruise Lines flags are about the same size.

[Boytjie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack#Terminology

 

Having been in the South African Navy (no snickering) and interested in flags (I buy them as souvenirs) I had to investigate. ;)

[Topsham]

Having been in the South African Navy (no snickering) and interested in flags (I buy them as souvenirs) I had to investigate. ;)

 

 

 

As a boy growing in Bermuda I used to go up to the Fort Scaur in Somerset. All of the Commonwealth flags were flying on poles. I would go to the fort and help the curator.... Mr Morris... was fun hoist them and then back in the. I know the SA flag also.... fascinating. Especially the Dutch/English design for the flag. Also the great flag Ceylon. Have never got used to using Sri Lanka!

 

That fort..... our 'gang'... we knew every inch in the fort. We even knew how climb the parapet to get it... when it was locked. Vandals! All over we had OUR 'Forts'.... hey... we need a place to smoke in quiet and not get caught!;)

[Topsham]

They do fly a bigger flag on the Main Mast. All Cruise Lines flags are about the same size.

 

 

True. The old QUEEN ELIZABETH used to fly an ensign 9 yards long.... 27 feet! Costa usually fly large ensign as well. Some are proud.. so many just can't be bother. :(

[Folk Singer]

Thanks Topsham.

[AmazedByCruising]

Thanks everyone! I set my expectations to maybe one answer like "why would you care, can't find your ship?". I also would have believed "Smaller flags are just cheaper" living on peacefully but ignorant, but instead you prompted me to spend a few hours reading about flags, naming, etc.

 

Each and everytime I ask a question it gets answered thoroughly by people who know *everything* about the particular subject and in each thread other people chime in and either say they like the subject, too or ask more in depth-questions. (or change the subject to wang wangs, which is also interesting, something I missed and unfortunately don't seem available anymore).

[Topsham]

Knowledge is FUN!!! Especially ships and shipping and when you are on a cruise... you are living the experience.

 

Stephen

[AmazedByCruising]

Knowledge is FUN!!! Especially ships and shipping and when you are on a cruise... you are living the experience.

 

Stephen

 

Indeed, so I already posted a new question :) Thanks for your elaborate answers!