Carnival to Stop Offering Cruises to Nowhere - Starting in 2016

[falkcor]

there's news in today that Carnival (and others) will stop offering cruises to nowhere (CTN) starting in 2016.

 

announcement from john heald:

 

Disappointing news :

Due to recent changes in how ships are cleared into and out of the United States by U.S. officials, certain short duration cruises without a foreign port of call are subject to itinerary changes beginning in 2016 . Unfortunately, this means that we will not be permitted to operate cruises-to-nowhere

This does include the Carnival Vista's 3 day cruise to nowhere from New York.

Those who are booked on our cruises to nowhere will receive a letter very soon explaining this.

So sorry.

 

source:

 

cancellation notices are being sent, including carnival vista's 3 day cruise to nowhere from new york, and itinerary changes implemented.

 

it was also confirmed on this board in another thread by carnival's online community manager on cruise critic:

 

Due to recent changes in how ships are cleared into and out of the United States by U.S. officials, certain short duration cruises without a foreign port of call are subject to itinerary changes beginning in 2016. Unfortunately, this means that we will not be permitted to operate cruises-to-nowhere.

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=46814982&postcount=43

 

it is expected, or stated, to be an industry-wide change.

 

re-posting here in a separate thread for general information, beyond the vista 3 day cancellation thread, here:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2220770

 

if you have a CTN booked (on carnival or otherwise), watch your bookings, email, and share your feedback here.

Edited June 11, 2015 by falkcor

[love my grandkids]

Wonder what US officials did to cause CTN to be stopped?

 

Cruise lines seem to get a premium price for these so they must be popular.

[falkcor]

a question regarding whether this affects all cruise lines:

 

Ann _____ Is this for all cruise lines?

John Heald yes Ann _____

 

[falkcor]

Wonder what US officials did to cause CTN to be stopped?

 

Cruise lines seem to get a premium price for these so they must be popular.

 

agreed. i'm curious, too, as to what change in regulations would force this... they certainly always have sold at a premium, yet were still attractive for a 'quick getaway' to a lot of people, for sure.

[cruizinisthebest]

I believe Royal's AOTS 3-day has been sold out a while now. Those folks won't be happy.

 

And I noticed a while ago that the Breakaway 2-dayers out of NYC weren't showing after December 2015. Now it all makes sense - though messed up! My Vista sailing was cancelled. :(

[vlynn]

It specifies "short duration" I wonder what this exactly means? How about 4 or 5 day CTN (are there 5 day CTN's)? Are they ok? Also very curious what the change was?

Edited June 11, 2015 by vlynn
error

[falkcor]

I believe Royal's AOTS 3-day has been sold out a while now. Those folks won't be happy.

 

And I noticed a while ago that the Breakaway 2-dayers out of NYC weren't showing after December 2015. Now it all makes sense - though messed up! My Vista sailing was cancelled. :(

 

if this is true, and it is an industry-wide change, there will be plenty of people booked on CTNs from several different lines (NCL seems to have a lot of these!) that will be disappointed.

 

i was hoping / planning to get on that vista CTN myself.

[cantthinkofanythingfun]

This is really going to mess up a lot of cruise line schedules. CTN's are typically filler cruises between 10 and 12 night cruises. Cruise companies aren't going to have the ship sit there empty for two or three days.

[falkcor]

It specifies "short duration" I wonder what this exactly means? How about 4 or 5 day CTN (are there 5 day CTN's)? Are they ok? Also very curious what the change was?

 

it specifies short duration without a foreign port of call...

 

i'm not aware of any 4 or 5 day CTN that weren't affected by a hurricane, but they may exist on other lines? (i've never seen one on carnival)...

 

i'm also curious what the change was but it has not been clarified yet, to my knowledge. that's the primary part of why i made this thread, if it does in fact affect all CTN sailings - i want to know why!

[bydefault]

Gotta figure out who in Congress or Bureau is on the take for shutting this down. Who stands the most to gain from this?

[bruadhin]

Write your Congress members. Presumably this was a change made by regulation and not law. If enough members of Congress hear about it, they may hold hearing which causes the responsible agency to reevaluate the regulation.

 

Presumably this has something to do with interpreting the PSVA.

[falkcor]

Write your Congress members. Presumably this was a change made by regulation and not law. If enough members of Congress hear about it, they may hold hearing which causes the responsible agency to reevaluate the regulation.

 

Presumably this has something to do with interpreting the PSVA.

 

that would be a lot easier to do if it were clear what regulations or law were actually changed. as it stands, such is not clear.

 

if anybody does come across such information, i hope it will be shared here - that's why i posted this separately from the 'my cruise is cancelled' threads.

 

this is pretty BIG if true, and i think we all want to know WHY.

[bruadhin]

that would be a lot easier to do if it were clear what regulations or law were actually changed. as it stands, such is not clear.

 

if anybody does come across such information, i hope it will be shared here - that's why i posted this separately from the 'my cruise is cancelled' threads.

 

this is pretty BIG if true, and i think we all want to know WHY.

 

Sorry, wrong answer. :)

 

Why isn't really important to this step. What is important is that you complain to your Congress members. They will figure out why and who to haul into hearings.

 

Now as far as satisfying curiosity, I agree. I am curious why as well. But to fixing it, why really isn't important. Just start making yourself heard. Write, call, email Congress, the committee chairmen for transportation in the Senate and the House of Representatives, and the President. Also, call the local tv station and talk about how government regulation is ruining your vacation.

[figdu]

Wonder if this has anything to do with it:

 

U.S. Custom's consistent opinions holding that crewmembers are not in compliance with their D-1 visa status when they operate "cruises to nowhere," the Court has no difficulty concluding that CBP's November 2013 determination was not arbitrary, capricious, or contrary to law. ...

[falkcor]

Wonder if this has anything to do with it:

 

U.S. Custom's consistent opinions holding that crewmembers are not in compliance with their D-1 visa status when they operate "cruises to nowhere," the Court has no difficulty concluding that CBP's November 2013 determination was not arbitrary, capricious, or contrary to law. ...

 

very interesting find... here's what i came up with in that regard (small excerpt):

 

Moreover, Plaintiffs' interpretation would effectively allow alien crewmen to work in the United States without proper authorization so long as the vessel they operated occasionally departed on a legitimate foreign cruise, effectively skirting immigration employment laws. Accordingly, in light of the deference the Court must give the agency's interpretation, Plaintiffs' failure to point to any legal authority affirmatively supporting their analysis, and U.S. Custom's consistent opinions holding that crewmembers are not in compliance with their D-1 visa status when they operate "cruises to nowhere,"

 

http://www.lexisnexis.com/legalnewsroom/immigration/b/insidenews/archive/2014/01/13/39-cruise-to-nowhere-39-foreign-crews-need-work-authorization-bimini-superfast-operations-v-winkowski.aspx

 

and here's the link to the complaint:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/27924754/Bimini.pdf

 

ETA: it looks like they lost that case:

 

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2014-01-23/entertainment/fl-bimini-superfast-genting-011814-20140117_1_genting-rwbimini-com-cruise

 

i wonder if it was in fact because of that case, that the regulations are changing across the industry...

Edited June 11, 2015 by falkcor

[bruadhin]

Wonder if this has anything to do with it:

 

U.S. Custom's consistent opinions holding that crewmembers are not in compliance with their D-1 visa status when they operate "cruises to nowhere," the Court has no difficulty concluding that CBP's November 2013 determination was not arbitrary, capricious, or contrary to law. ...

 

I suspect that is the reason then. Just looking around, it appears the crew would not qualify for B-1 visas which would be necessary to continue CTNs.

 

Again, if it is important to you, write your members of Congress. It is simply CBPs interpretation of the law. Congress can change the law or encourage CBP to view the law differently.

[falkcor]

confirmed (by carnival) that this is expected to affect the north american cruise market as a whole, not just carnival cruise line.

 

I can tell you that the change affects the entire North American cruise industry, not just Carnival.

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=46815488&postcount=57

[cantthinkofanythingfun]

Writing your congressman doesn't really do anything in this day and age. Not to get political, but they don't read the bills they sign. Do you think they read letters? What does work is writing checks to congressmen, and I'm sure cruise lines write a lot of those. If they want this changed, they will pay the price to have it changed.

[bruadhin]

Writing your congressman doesn't really do anything in this day and age. Not to get political, but they don't read the bills they sign. Do you think they read letters? What does work is writing checks to congressmen, and I'm sure cruise lines write a lot of those. If they want this changed, they will pay the price to have it changed.

 

It most definitely does. Sure, writing checks are better, but no one wants the phones ringing off the hook with voters complaining.

 

Also, some love an opportunity to get in the spotlight. Berating civil servants for ruining people's vacations? That makes excellent PR.

[ohiogymrat]

It most definitely does. Sure, writing checks are better, but no one wants the phones ringing off the hook with voters complaining.

 

I seriously doubt this is an issue,that will cause the phones to ring off the hook for any Congressman.

 

But,folks should feel free to voice their concerns.

[Surrealistic]

This is really going to mess up a lot of cruise line schedules. CTN's are typically filler cruises between 10 and 12 night cruises. Cruise companies aren't going to have the ship sit there empty for two or three days.

 

I got notified today of my Vista itinerary change which now leaves 3 days earlier than previously scheduled. The change is actually better for me, since we leave on Saturday instead of Monday, but I'm sure it will mess some people up.

[sparks1093]

I believe Royal's AOTS 3-day has been sold out a while now. Those folks won't be happy.

 

And I noticed a while ago that the Breakaway 2-dayers out of NYC weren't showing after December 2015. Now it all makes sense - though messed up! My Vista sailing was cancelled. :(

 

I'm scheduled to take the Breakaway mid-January CTN and now it looks like it won't be a go. Pity, we got our intro to cruising on a CTN.

[sparks1093]

I don't know why this is all of a sudden a concern, it's not like the cruises go anywhere. As I recall we just disembarked the ship on our last one and didn't even go through customs.

[bruadhin]

I seriously doubt this is an issue,that will cause the phones to ring off the hook for any Congressman.

 

But,folks should feel free to voice their concerns.

 

I don't either. But it really isn't that hard to catch the attention of a staffer who brings it to the Congress member. The important thing is to call. It is much easier to ignore a letter or email.

 

Ultimately it really doesn't matter to me if they stop them or not. While it sounded interesting, I am too far from any port to justify traveling for a short CTN. Obviously many on this forum enjoy these trips and want them to continue. Either they can make their voices heard or just watch it disappear into the night.

[chengkp75]

very interesting find... here's what i came up with in that regard (small excerpt):

 

 

 

http://www.lexisnexis.com/legalnewsroom/immigration/b/insidenews/archive/2014/01/13/39-cruise-to-nowhere-39-foreign-crews-need-work-authorization-bimini-superfast-operations-v-winkowski.aspx

 

and here's the link to the complaint:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/27924754/Bimini.pdf

 

ETA: it looks like they lost that case:

 

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2014-01-23/entertainment/fl-bimini-superfast-genting-011814-20140117_1_genting-rwbimini-com-cruise

 

i wonder if it was in fact because of that case, that the regulations are changing across the industry...

 

Apparently, this is not something new. The Bimini Superfast filing mentions a 1993 bill in Congress to limit CTN's to US flag vessels. No way of knowing if there was a request for comment back then, and whether CBP made a rule change then, and it was not common knowledge, so that the Bimini case (20 years later) was the first denied under this rule. Though it does appear that CBP was selectively applying the rule, if it was created back then. The letter to RWB from CBP appears to cite current law, so there would appear to be some rule out there. I think that what triggered the CBP reaction was that the Bimini ship was going to be doing this regularly, not just occasionally like the major cruise lines do.