Can't Win! More from the chip & pin frontlines

[Pet Nit Noy]

For those who have followed my posts about having had no opportunity to use my PIN on my bona fide chip and PIN card, I thought you'd like to hear today's installment. We're in Ghent now -- altarpiece and Ypre touring. At lunch today, I spotted a sign that read "We only accept charge cards with a PIN." Hooray! After all the effort my husband and I put in identifying a chip card with PIN I've been frustrated by the situations in/around London that have treated my card as a chip and signature card. Finally, here in Ghent, I'd put my card through its full paces.

 

We ate a delicious meal and asked for the check. With great anticipation, I watched the waiter put my card into the charge machine. The next thing that occurred was the card spitting out a receipt and the waiter placing it in front of me for a signature. Huh? What happened to the grand pronouncement about PIN cards only. When I asked the waiter what happened he replied, "I got a message that your card was good." I wasn't worried that it wasn't good. I just wanted the opportunity to use my credit card the way a European would.

 

Based on the evidence so far, European banks are setting their hand held charging devices as if no America card has a PIN. That even includes the one unmanned machine I used to add to my Oyster card

 

Sigh. If I'd know this was going to be the case we could have saved ourselves hours of research.

[Turtles06]

Your post made me laugh! Last year, after going through the effort to create an account with Andrews Federal Credit Union in order to obtain their much-touted genuine Chip and Pin card, we finally had the chance in the fall to use it in a couple of stores in Spain. I had memorized the pin, and could not wait to use it. But in NEITHER store was I asked for the pin. As happened with you, the card reader spit out a receipt for me to sign. :eek:

 

We'll be back in Europe later this year. I will try again!!! :)

 

Have a great trip!

[celle]

MY chip and pin cards were issued in New Zealand. I always have to sign when using them in the UK or Europe. That seems to be standard practice.

I assume that's because the system is not set up to communicate with my issuing banks, out of their country.

 

However, the pin works in ATM machines.

[hancogran]

Both our Visa and Mastercard are chip and pin cards issued by Canadian banks. We just returned home after traveling to Belgium, France and England for 5 weeks and never once had to actually "sign" a receipt.. and believe me, the cards were well used. :eek: lol

 

Strange that you couldn't just punch in your PIN number. :confused:

[MATHA531]

I tried to explain this in another thread, got flamed by some who told me I was wrong so I gave up trying to reason with people. Here goes one more time because it is important.

 

Cards with emv chips have impregnated on the chip (best term I could think of) a list of possible card verification methods (cvm's), separate ones for purchases and advances. The terminal goes down the list till it finds one that meshes with it. For reasons not altogether satisfactory to me and to many others, the American banks have decided for us that the vast majority of people prefer signatures to pins. So signature is the first listed cvm on almost every American emv compliant card being issued for purchases. Read that again and understand its significance. Almost every American card being issued with an emv chip's first verification method is signature for purchases. Since almost every pos (point of sale) terminal recognizes signature transaction, no matter what your bank tries to tell you or some know nothings in all due respect) with one or two exceptions American emv chip cards will default to signature including cards issued by Andrews FCU which is touted as a "true" chip and pin card. Including cards issued by Barclay Bank USA which at least in its literature describes its card as signature preferred with pin capability (more on this in a few sentences).

 

As it stands today, 10 July 2015, the only American financial institution issuing what would be characterized as a "true" chip and pin card, thus a card with pin preference ahead of signature preference is UNFCU. This card will function in European pos terminals as chip and pin but it has a 1% foreign transaction fee and a not very good rewards program. That's it. Looking for another "true" pin preference card issued by a USA financial institution is a waste of your time, they just don't exist.

 

Visa USA has been pa;rticularly adamant that this is what Americans prefer. Buy it or not if you want but this is what has been decided. Now many of these cards if inserted in a terminal that doesn't support signature, say an automated French gasoline pump on a Sunday afternoon in rural France with no attendant present can operate as a chip and pin card, will ask for your pin. Visa has been trying to outlaw this practice and is insistent that as of 01 July 2015, terminals that reject emv compliant cards on the basis of not having pin as part of the cvm's will be illeagal. Whether this will be enforced is another story but such terminals as of today are, in theory, in violation of visa (and mc) regs and all terminals must (according to visa) accept any valid visa card even if it means no cvm. Some machines have already converted, say many of the sncf machines in France and today accept American chip cards lacking pins. However if you come across a machine in France and elsewhere that doesn't, what are you to do? Kick the machine and tell it visa says you have to accept the card?

 

Let me repeat, this is the way it is. This is not necessarily the way I and others want it. However, in reality, the added security is provided by the chip. I would agree with anybody that checking signatures is silly as a security verification method although in the USA, more and more merchants well within their merchant agreements no longer bother even having clients sign for transactions less than $50 and hardly anybody in the USA checks signatures on cards.

 

Be aware that as of now, the only USA merchant that has energized its emv terminals is Walmart. To test whether your American issued emv chipped card is a "true" chip and pin card, go to a Walmart. Buy a chocolate bar and check out. You will find that with the exception of the UNFCU card, no signature will be required or collected nor will a pin be requested. If you use the UNFCU card, it will always ask for a pin.

 

Now once again, please don't shoot the messenger. I am not saying this is the way it should be, this is the way it is. It is futile to look for an American issued credit card except for UNFCU which will function as a "true" chip and pin card. They just don't exist.

Edited July 10, 2015 by MATHA531

[Turtles06]

I tried to explain this in another thread, got flamed by some who told me I was wrong so I gave up trying to reason with people. Here goes one more time because it is important. . . .

 

 

Thank you SO much for that explanation.

 

One thing that wasn't clear from what you wrote (at least to me :) ): if you have one of these American chip and pin cards (that really isn't true chip and pin), like the Andrews FCU card, and you are in Europe at an unattended machine, say the gas pump in your example, where obviously the "signature" cvm won't work, WILL the machine ask for your pin?

 

My AFCU card supposedly does have a pin; so will that unattended machine ask me for it, or just stop when it's unable to work with signature verification?

[MATHA531]

Thank you SO much for that explanation.

 

One thing that wasn't clear from what you wrote (at least to me :) ): if you have one of these American chip and pin cards (that really isn't true chip and pin), like the Andrews FCU card, and you are in Europe at an unattended machine, say the gas pump in your example, where obviously the "signature" cvm won't work, WILL the machine ask for your pin?

 

My AFCU card supposedly does have a pin; so will that unattended machine ask me for it, or just stop when it's unable to work with signature verification?

 

Thank you at least for reading what I wrote and not starting with the assumption I was wrong. The answer to your question is that up till now under the circumstances you described, the Andrews FCU card would function as a chip and pin card and many were successful using it that way. Of course, if we were to believe visa (and mc), under these circumstances since the 01 July 2015 deadline has passed, all American cards with the emv chip should work either with pin verification or no verification at all. Only time will tell what will actually happen now; I can't guarantee it one way or another.

 

Incidentally, watch out for customer service reps (csr's) of many banks telling you that if you use a pin on their cards (Chase is an example) to complete a transaction it will automatically go through as a cash advance. Nothing could be further from the truth although Chase cards do not use pin verification despite the fact they promised originally to do so.

 

Again this information is accuate as of today. Perhaps some brave American financial institution will in the near future buck the trend but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting.

Edited July 10, 2015 by MATHA531

[Pet Nit Noy]

I tried to explain this in another thread, got flamed by some who told me I was wrong so I gave up trying to reason with people. Here goes one more time because it is important...

 

As it stands today, 10 July 2015, the only American financial institution issuing what would be characterized as a "true" chip and pin card, thus a card with pin preference ahead of signature preference is UNFCU. This card will function in European pos terminals as chip and pin but it has a 1% foreign transaction fee and a not very good rewards program. That's it. Looking for another "true" pin preference card issued by a USA financial institution is a waste of your time...

 

Now once again, please don't shoot the messenger. I am not saying this is the way it should be, this is the way it is. It is futile to look for an American issued credit card except for UNFCU which will function as a "true" chip and pin card. They just don't exist.

 

When you write UNFCU are you referring to Navy Federal Credit Union card? The front of our card reads NFCU? If you're saying that one will work as a bona fide chip and PIN, we may want to switch to using that as our primary card. Up til now, the card we've been using -- the card that produced the restaurant anecdote -- was our PFCU (Pentagon Federal Credit Union) card.

[Pet Nit Noy]

Thank you SO much for that explanation.

 

One thing that wasn't clear from what you wrote (at least to me :) ): if you have one of these American chip and pin cards (that really isn't true chip and pin), like the Andrews FCU card, and you are in Europe at an unattended machine, say the gas pump in your example, where obviously the "signature" cvm won't work, WILL the machine ask for your pin?

 

My AFCU card supposedly does have a pin; so will that unattended machine ask me for it, or just stop when it's unable to work with signature verification?

 

There's no supposedly about either of my credit cards having a PIN. Before we left for our trip we got the letter sent from Pentagon Credit card with the PIN the organization assigned us, along with strict instructions to learn as there was no capacity for us to create a custom PIN. The PFCU card is the one I was using in the Ghent restaurant.

 

We created a custom PIN for our NFCU card but we haven't been using that as our primary card.

[MATHA531]

When you write UNFCU are you referring to Navy Federal Credit Union card? The front of our card reads NFCU? If you're saying that one will work as a bona fide chip and PIN, we may want to switch to using that as our primary card. Up til now, the card we've been using -- the card that produced the restaurant anecdote -- was our PFCU (Pentagon Federal Credit Union) card.

 

UNFCU stands for United Nations Federal Credit Union; a financial institution set up in New York for employees of Uthe nited Nations. Non UN employees can join this fcu and take advantage of its services by joining an organization set up to support USA participation in the United Nations. Information is available on their web site. I have the card and when I get frustrated with the intransigence of some of the British chain which are introducing self service in many of their stores and eliminating some clerks at tills (like for example Tesco, Sainsbury, Boots), if you use a US chip and signature preferred card, rather than completing the transaction after inserting your card in the chip reader, a message flashes to seek assistance. Sometimes assistance arrives in seconds; other times you are left to stand there until somebody gets off his or her rear end to come over, enter his or her code, have a receipt printed, even for a miniscule charge, have you sign it, never look at it to compare signatures, put it in his or her pocket and only then is the transaction completed. We can argue from now till the chickens come home to roost hos much this system contributes to security (the unfortunate truth is not in the slightest). In the USA, like it or not, we have long since passed that stage and in those situations, there is a signature pad to sign attached to the terminal, nobody checks signatures especially for small purchases and these terminals can be a real times saver. I wish in other places the waste of time in checking signatures at least for small purchases would become universa' however I have been unable to determine if there is a prohibition of this practice on merchant agreements outside the USA or somebody feels a 17 year old clerk holding down a summer job at Boots will really not complete a transaction after chcking a signature. We can argue this all we want. In my opinion, and evidently in the opinion of visa, mc, amex and most American retailers, the efficiency of completing small transactions quickly outweighs security considerations but everybody is entitled to their opinion on this.

[MATHA531]

Just to finish my thoughts on this, UNFCU is not my favorite card to use on trips outside the USA as they impose a 1% foreign transaction fee which is 1% higher than it should be and their rewards program is not as good as it should be. I prefer to use Bank of America travel rewards which has no annual fee, no foreign transaction fee even though it is more inconvenient to use at self service machines as I explained above. However, if having a "pure" chip and pin ard is important to you and you want to eat 1% extra on every foreign transaction and you are resident in the USA, as it stands today UNFCU is the only game in town.

[lisiamc]

FWIW, we have a UK Visa card that we use in Italy, Germany and France. It is chip and pin. About half the time, I am asked to enter the pin, and the rest of the time, the little machine generates a slip for me to sign. I have given up trying to figure it out.

[Globaliser]

Try using it in South Africa. As often as not, I have to PIN. If accepted, the machine then prints a slip that I must sign to complete the transaction.

 

I actually don't care what I am asked to do so long as I can pay. But I do take some grim satisfaction in reading the stories about the global migration of point-of-sale credit card fraud to a certain part of the western hemisphere.

[MATHA531]

Try using it in South Africa. As often as not, I have to PIN. If accepted, the machine then prints a slip that I must sign to complete the transaction.

 

I actually don't care what I am asked to do so long as I can pay. But I do take some grim satisfaction in reading the stories about the global migration of point-of-sale credit card fraud to a certain part of the western hemisphere.

 

Hm...are you referring to the good old USA by any chance? Actually although the figures for pos fraud in the USA seem very high, they only amount to about 12¢ for every $100 of revenue generated by the banks' plastic payment card operations. A trade off I would make every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Just the cost of doing business. Couple that with zero liability for consumers because of both US law and competitive pressures and the banks are not under overwhelming pressure to push chip and pin if, and it's a big if, their surveys are correct and most Americans prefer signature verification no matter how distasteful that is to others.

[Turtles06]

There's no supposedly about either of my credit cards having a PIN. Before we left for our trip we got the letter sent from Pentagon Credit card with the PIN the organization assigned us, along with strict instructions to learn as there was no capacity for us to create a custom PIN. The PFCU card is the one I was using in the Ghent restaurant.

 

We created a custom PIN for our NFCU card but we haven't been using that as our primary card.

 

I'd only said "supposedly" because, like you, when we've used the card in Europe, no PIN has been requested. I was just being a little snarky. :) As you did, we got a letter from the issuer with the PIN, which is embedded in the card and why you can't create a custom PIN.

[Turtles06]

Couple that with zero liability for consumers because of both US law and competitive pressures and the banks are not under overwhelming pressure to push chip and pin if, and it's a big if, their surveys are correct and most Americans prefer signature verification no matter how distasteful that is to others.

 

As an American, I'll say that signature verification is a joke. I can't think of the last time any clerk asked to look at my card. Not to mention that you mostly "sign" now on an electronic pad with a fat electronic "pen," and, in my case at least, when I do that, my signature is pretty illegible. (It's pretty illegible anyway.) Plus, the notion that retail clerks are handwriting experts is silly.

[Globaliser]

Hm...are you referring to the good old USA by any chance? Actually although the figures for pos fraud in the USA seem very high, they only amount to about 12¢ for every $100 of revenue generated by the banks' plastic payment card operations. A trade off I would make every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Just the cost of doing business. Couple that with zero liability for consumers because of both US law and competitive pressures and the banks are not under overwhelming pressure to push chip and pin if, and it's a big if, their surveys are correct and most Americans prefer signature verification no matter how distasteful that is to others.

On the contrary, the US banks are under substantial pressure to do something about this (even if it is not necessarily to move to chip and PIN), because AIUI something in the order of 90% of the world's POS credit card fraud now takes place in the US. This is primarily a consequence of the adoption of chip and PIN elsewhere in the world but not in the US. I believe that the UK experience is that chip and PIN has cut POS fraud to low single digit percentage points of what it used to be.

 

That's why I used the word "migration". Elsewhere, credit card fraud is now harder and generally requires more sophisticated techniques than before.

 

The "zero liability" point adds nothing, as that is also the position in the UK and probably in many other places that have moved to chip and PIN.

[MATHA531]

On the contrary, the US banks are under substantial pressure to do something about this (even if it is not necessarily to move to chip and PIN), because AIUI something in the order of 90% of the world's POS credit card fraud now takes place in the US. This is primarily a consequence of the adoption of chip and PIN elsewhere in the world but not in the US. I believe that the UK experience is that chip and PIN has cut POS fraud to low single digit percentage points of what it used to be.

 

That's why I used the word "migration". Elsewhere, credit card fraud is now harder and generally requires more sophisticated techniques than before.

 

The "zero liability" point adds nothing, as that is also the position in the UK and probably in many other places that have moved to chip and PIN.

 

Actually also the Target and Home Depot data theft also helped drive the point home. Nobody disputes the introduction of emv compliant cards will cut pos fraud. What the question is whether it is necessary to go to chip and pin or will chip and signature suffice. The banks do worry that if they go to chip and pin while other banks only go to chip and signature, some potential customers will opt for the easier to use card i.e. signature verification and I am sure the banks have done surveys on this (although one cannot discount the cost of going all the way to chip and pin bypassing chip and signature. And among different kinds of merchants, restaurants feel under additional pressure because in order to implement chip and pin, they will have to spring for the wireless portable terminals so common elsewhere. Who is to pay for them is part of the ongoing arguments regarding introducing chip and pin in the USA (just the messenger boys, I certainly given my druthers would prefer chip and pin so you don't have to preach to the choir).

 

And isn't it true that when the UK introduced successfully I might add chip and pin fraud on online purchases soared which is probably what will happen here. These vermin breaking into data banks and using counterfeit cards and the like one has to grudgingly admit are good at what they do. What do you think is going to happen?

[Globaliser]

And isn't it true that when the UK introduced successfully I might add chip and pin fraud on online purchases soared which is probably what will happen here.

Yes, that's right - and the result is that a lot of banks and merchants have been on a steep learning curve to smarten up their act against online credit card fraud. Also, ordinary people have had to get smarter about things like identity theft, phishing and vishing. But generally it is harder to commit online fraud successfully, and the more barriers you put up against it, the lower the costs for us all. (Zero liability directly for the affected consumer doesn't change the fact that we all pay for the costs of fraud.)

 

It is really quite amazing to read about all of the controversy that's holding up the introduction of better security in the US. Customer resistance to change and the cost of new terminals are things that the whole world has had to deal with. These are not problems unique to the US. Yet the rest of the world has adopted change and the US hasn't. In so many ways, quite bizarre.

[MATHA531]

Deleted.

Edited July 11, 2015 by MATHA531

[whatnot]

Thanks so much for your explanations. I have wondered for several years why I never get asked for my pin when I use my Wells Fargo By Invitation Only Visa in Europe. Now I know! It automatically goes to signature first. We have used it in gas stations and on the motorway toll booths in France successfully with no pin or signature. It doesn't work for most public transportation.

 

Within the last year we actually have been asked for the Pin on 2 occasions. The first time was at a hotel in Lisbon in September and the second was at the Caillier Chocolate Factory in Switzerland in June. I am always so happy to have this happen because I feel much safer abroad using the pin number. Would love to use it here too!

[Pet Nit Noy]

Thanks so much for your explanations. I have wondered for several years why I never get asked for my pin when I use my Wells Fargo By Invitation Only Visa in Europe. Now I know! It automatically goes to signature first. We have used it in gas stations and on the motorway toll booths in France successfully with no pin or signature. It doesn't work for most public transportation.

 

Within the last year we actually have been asked for the Pin on 2 occasions. The first time was at a hotel in Lisbon in September and the second was at the Caillier Chocolate Factory in Switzerland in June. I am always so happy to have this happen because I feel much safer abroad using the pin number. Would love to use it here too!

 

If you're standing in line to buy tickets for the VASA Museum in Stokholm and the museum attendant shouts, "Anyone with a credit card that includes a PIN come with me!" I recommend you trust your card and go for it!

 

A group of us were ushered to the automated ticket machines avoiding plenty more waiting for a human ticket agent. Except for the words "Buy ticket", the machine conducts transactions entirely in Swedish much like using a cash point machine a decade ago. I basically had to rely on the shared Germanic language roots of Swedish and English and simply guess in other places. At any rate, my PIN was called for and the card worked.

[2theship]

DH and I are having a good laugh over this thread. We both went to the trouble of getting PINs on our new Capital One cards for our stay in the UK before our transatlantic cruise that sails tomorrow. Like others, we each produced our cards for various transactions and have yet to be asked for a PIN. We've asked on a few occasions but just get told the machine said to get a signature. BTW, these are two completely separate accounts.

 

Anyway, thank you for the explanations, I can see the reasoning. I may not agree with it but I can see it. One thing I do differently here is that I try to make my signature legible, not the scrawl I give in the USA.

[Bob++]

The reason why a sales clerk in Boots will closely examine the signature on a £4.50 purchase, is simply that it might well be the only one they process in a week. After protests from the elderly and handicapped charities, it was made mandatory for all retailers to be able to accept signatures here. The clerk in Walmart does hundreds a day so will have no interest in trying to match up scrawls.

 

Now that we are fast moving over to just waving a card over a reader for minor purchases, the demise of cash looms ever closer.

 

BTW, thank you for your very clear explanation of the current situation on chip & PIN.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Bob++

[MATHA531]

Thank you Bob. The clerks in the British chains I use do for the most part check signatures; how closely can be debated. I still don't think some 16 year old student filling a cashier's job for the summer is really going to make a stink about signatures but we might have to agree to disagree on that. I think we can agree, however, that signatures provide next to no security, so why bother for small purchases? I really don't mind them checking signatures on my card but as I pointed out many of these chains are now pushing self service check out and what is irksome is that while they do take chip and signature cards, the transaction is stopped with the message seek assistance and several times last summer I was left waiting 3 or 4 minutes or even more for the seek assistance person to come over, enter his or her code, produce a sale slip for me to sign, rarely check the signature (as the card is long since back in my pocket; one time one did and I handed them another card to see what would happen and he never not☼iced the numbers did not match) all for a 2 quid purchase. Yet I go into the underground, use a tfl machine to top up my oyster card with a 7 day zone 1 & 2 travelcard and it's over £30 and there's no signature, no pin, no anything. It's simply silly at least in my opinion but others are welcome to disagree.