How does the Legend do it?

[cruiseonthebrain]

How does the Legend do the Alaska to Hawaii transition? Has anyone done a btbtb on the Legend during transition? Can you do Alaska then tran pac then Hawaii without getting off the ship?

[tallyho8]

You can not book the Legend btb from Seattle on 9-6-16 to Vancouver and then from Vancouver on 9-13-16 to Honolulu but you can book it if you are going btbtb and add on Honolulu on 9-23-16 to Sydney.

 

You can book the Legend btbtb from Sydney Australia on April 18, 2016 to Honolulu, then from Honolulu on May 5 to Vancouver, then from Vancouver on May 16 to Seattle.

 

But Americans can not book the btb from Honolulu to Seattle due to the Passenger Vessel Services Act though some foreigners have reported that they are allowed to do it.

[chengkp75]

You can not book the Legend btb from Seattle on 9-6-16 to Vancouver and then from Vancouver on 9-13-16 to Honolulu but you can book it if you are going btbtb and add on Honolulu on 9-23-16 to Sydney.

 

You can book the Legend btbtb from Sydney Australia on April 18, 2016 to Honolulu, then from Honolulu on May 5 to Vancouver, then from Vancouver on May 16 to Seattle.

 

But Americans can not book the btb from Honolulu to Seattle due to the Passenger Vessel Services Act though some foreigners have reported that they are allowed to do it.

 

PVSA doesn't care about the citizenship of the passenger, just whether the foreign flag ship is carrying passengers from one US port to another.

[crzndeb]

I noticed on another thread that somebody said they booked in April/2017 from Hawaii to Vancouver and then the Alaska cruise after. I think that Alaska cruise returns to Seattle, so I'm pretty sure they will get a call that one of the legs needs to be canceled.

[tallyho8]

PVSA doesn't care about the citizenship of the passenger, just whether the foreign flag ship is carrying passengers from one US port to another.

 

I know how the PVSA is worded and I also know that they have passed exceptions and other provisions and I know some foreigners who have been able to book these cruises when Americans were not allowed to and they were not charged the $300 fine. There are 3 different occasions where I have seen this allowed.

[StolidCruiser]

I know how the PVSA is worded and I also know that they have passed exceptions and other provisions and I know some foreigners who have been able to book these cruises when Americans were not allowed to and they were not charged the $300 fine. There are 3 different occasions where I have seen this allowed.

 

Can you please provide direction to the passed exemptions of the PVSA that provides for variable compliance based on an individual passenger's nationality?

[chengkp75]

I know how the PVSA is worded and I also know that they have passed exceptions and other provisions and I know some foreigners who have been able to book these cruises when Americans were not allowed to and they were not charged the $300 fine. There are 3 different occasions where I have seen this allowed.

 

You do know that the PVSA does not levy a fine against the passenger, but only against the cruise line? It is only the passenger ticket contract that grants the line the ability to pass the cost to the passenger. I also would like some specifics on the instances of "exemptions".

[tallyho8]

I was told by an officer on a cruise line that they section 55121 (b) of the PVSA act is the provision most used and also that the PVSA does not apply to Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, the Northern Mariana Islands, Canton Island and parts of Canada.

 

And yes, the fine is levied against the cruise line who charges the passenger with the fine.

 

Reading this Cruise Critic forum you can find many foreigners who have been able to do these cruises that were not available to Americans and were levied no fine. Now, neither they nor I have any way of knowing whether or not the cruise line was levied a fine that was not passed on to the passenger, just that the passenger was allowed to do the cruise.

 

Also in the exceptions are rules pertaining to whether or not the passenger actually disembarks the ship at a port he is not allowed to visit.

[chengkp75]

I was told by an officer on a cruise line that they section 55121 (b) of the PVSA act is the provision most used and also that the PVSA does not apply to Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, the Northern Mariana Islands, Canton Island and parts of Canada.

 

And yes, the fine is levied against the cruise line who charges the passenger with the fine.

 

Reading this Cruise Critic forum you can find many foreigners who have been able to do these cruises that were not available to Americans and were levied no fine. Now, neither they nor I have any way of knowing whether or not the cruise line was levied a fine that was not passed on to the passenger, just that the passenger was allowed to do the cruise.

 

Also in the exceptions are rules pertaining to whether or not the passenger actually disembarks the ship at a port he is not allowed to visit.

 

 

While you are correct that the are exemptions to the PVSA that apply to the above listed locations, until suitable US flag service becomes available, this applies to all passengers, not based on citizenship. Carnival regularly transports US passengers between Puerto Rico and Galveston one way, as allowed by the PVSA, again no restriction by citizenship.

 

Your last sentence is confusing. If the passenger does not disembark in the port "he is not allowed to visit", then he/she is continuing on the same ship to another final destination. CBP, when applying the PVSA does not look at individual legs, or whether a cruise is advertised as separate cruises. They look at port of embarkation and port of debarkation, period. This is why you can string together two cruises that would be illegal by the PVSA to make one that is legal. However, again, there is no restriction to citizenship, anyone, including US citizens can do this.

 

Section 55121 of 46 USC allows Homeland Security to issue temporary permits to vessels to carry passengers to Canadian vessels. There are no Canadian flag cruise ships, but this applies to some ferry and cargo vessels.

 

Please provide a link to a post where a non-US citizen was able to take a cruise that violated the PVSA, where US citizens were not.

[jakesnana]

I noticed on another thread that somebody said they booked in April/2017 from Hawaii to Vancouver and then the Alaska cruise after. I think that Alaska cruise returns to Seattle, so I'm pretty sure they will get a call that one of the legs needs to be canceled.

 

It was me who booked the b2b for April 2017. IF I do get a call that one of the legs have to be cancelled, when do you think I will get this call? I'd hate to spend a lot of time researching things, only to find out I couldn't do it.

 

FWIW, I am booked using an Interline rate and needed to send credentials that I was eligible for this rate, so several CCL employees have already viewed this reservation and NO ONE has said anything yet.

[crzndeb]

Bev,

 

It's hard to say when this will be noticed, since your cruise is so far away. I had friends a few years ago try to do this, only to find out a leg had to be canceled after they had made flight and hotel arrangements.

 

The Carnival reps are pretty clueless about this law, but recently I have read that when people tried to book directly with them, somehow these b2b trips were being red flagged.

 

It is perfectly fine to change ships for the Alaska trip, so you might want to look into seeing if any other cruises are available around the time you get to Vancouver.

 

This happens every year during the repo's of ships going to Alaska for the summer.

[chengkp75]

It was me who booked the b2b for April 2017. IF I do get a call that one of the legs have to be cancelled, when do you think I will get this call? I'd hate to spend a lot of time researching things, only to find out I couldn't do it.

 

FWIW, I am booked using an Interline rate and needed to send credentials that I was eligible for this rate, so several CCL employees have already viewed this reservation and NO ONE has said anything yet.

 

Where does the second cruise end? If it is round trip Vancouver, then you are fine. If it is Vancouver to Seattle, then its not allowed. Are they doing Vancouver-Seattle, then Seattle-Vancouver Alaska cruises?

[tallyho8]

Reading the entire PSVA act I can find nothing that mentions that foreigners are allowed to do btb cruises that Americans are not allowed to do.

 

However, I have been on many repositioning cruises and have personally spoken to people who were on the 2nd leg of the cruise who were allowed to book both cruises that Americans were not allowed to book. And these people were assured by cruise line officials that they would receive no fines for such cruises.

 

Also, I have read here, on Cruise Critic, many posts by foreigners who have said they were allowed to make such cruises and incurred no fines.

 

As I said before, I do not know if the cruise line was fined and did not pass the fine on to the passenger because rules may be different for foreigners but I do know that many foreigners have made these btb cruises without incurring any fines.

 

You can do your own searches on CC to find some of these passengers and quiz them yourself as to why this was allowed and you can email the cruise lines and ask why they allow this if you have the inclination to do so. I just know that it has been done many times and since it doesn't affect me, I really don't care enough about it to go to all the trouble of finding out the hows and whys.

[crzndeb]

Reading the entire PSVA act I can find nothing that mentions that foreigners are allowed to do btb cruises that Americans are not allowed to do.

 

However, I have been on many repositioning cruises and have personally spoken to people who were on the 2nd leg of the cruise who were allowed to book both cruises that Americans were not allowed to book. And these people were assured by cruise line officials that they would receive no fines for such cruises.

 

Also, I have read here, on Cruise Critic, many posts by foreigners who have said they were allowed to make such cruises and incurred no fines.

 

As I said before, I do not know if the cruise line was fined and did not pass the fine on to the passenger because rules may be different for foreigners but I do know that many foreigners have made these btb cruises without incurring any fines.

 

You can do your own searches on CC to find some of these passengers and quiz them yourself as to why this was allowed and you can email the cruise lines and ask why they allow this if you have the inclination to do so. I just know that it has been done many times and since it doesn't affect me, I really don't care enough about it to go to all the trouble of finding out the hows and whys.

 

You may have been on repositioning cruises that don't pertain to this law, or possibly from a port exempt. There are very few repo cruises that this affects. Most of them involve the Hawaii and Alaska B2B because there are no "far" distant ports on the West Coast. Most repo cruises in the Carib visit the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curaçao) which satisfy the PVSA.

Edited December 27, 2015 by crzndeb

[chengkp75]

Reading the entire PSVA act I can find nothing that mentions that foreigners are allowed to do btb cruises that Americans are not allowed to do.

 

However, I have been on many repositioning cruises and have personally spoken to people who were on the 2nd leg of the cruise who were allowed to book both cruises that Americans were not allowed to book. And these people were assured by cruise line officials that they would receive no fines for such cruises.

 

Also, I have read here, on Cruise Critic, many posts by foreigners who have said they were allowed to make such cruises and incurred no fines.

 

As I said before, I do not know if the cruise line was fined and did not pass the fine on to the passenger because rules may be different for foreigners but I do know that many foreigners have made these btb cruises without incurring any fines.

 

You can do your own searches on CC to find some of these passengers and quiz them yourself as to why this was allowed and you can email the cruise lines and ask why they allow this if you have the inclination to do so. I just know that it has been done many times and since it doesn't affect me, I really don't care enough about it to go to all the trouble of finding out the hows and whys.

 

Well, you were the one who brought it up, without specifics. While doing an admittedly cursory search of CC, with a couple of different search strings, and over 10+ pages of hits, nothing I could find even mentioned a non-US citizen being able to book a cruise that was not allowed to a US citizen. I used to work for a cruise line, so I am intimately aware of the PVSA, and I know that there is nothing that allows non-US citizens an exemption, but as has been stated previously, there are cruises or combination of cruises that might look like a violation that actually weren't, but were in fact available to all passengers.

[jakesnana]

Where does the second cruise end? If it is round trip Vancouver, then you are fine. If it is Vancouver to Seattle, then its not allowed. Are they doing Vancouver-Seattle, then Seattle-Vancouver Alaska cruises?

 

The second cruise is Vancouver to Seattle, so I'm thinking it will not be allowed. The Noordam is sailing from Vancouver on the same day the Legend gets in, so I might make a booking on that also, in case Carnival tells me I need to cancel a leg of the voyage.

[chengkp75]

The second cruise is Vancouver to Seattle, so I'm thinking it will not be allowed. The Noordam is sailing from Vancouver on the same day the Legend gets in, so I might make a booking on that also, in case Carnival tells me I need to cancel a leg of the voyage.

 

Yep, change of ship will accomplish this.

[tallyho8]

Well, you were the one who brought it up, without specifics. While doing an admittedly cursory search of CC, with a couple of different search strings, and over 10+ pages of hits, nothing I could find even mentioned a non-US citizen being able to book a cruise that was not allowed to a US citizen. I used to work for a cruise line, so I am intimately aware of the PVSA, and I know that there is nothing that allows non-US citizens an exemption, but as has been stated previously, there are cruises or combination of cruises that might look like a violation that actually weren't, but were in fact available to all passengers.

 

It took me less than a minute to do a search and find this post: http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=48553154&postcount=118

I have seen many more like this. Just check the Alaska to Hawaii or Hawaii to Alaska roll calls.

[crzndeb]

It took me less than a minute to do a search and find this post: http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=48553154&postcount=118

I have seen many more like this. Just check the Alaska to Hawaii or Hawaii to Alaska roll calls.

 

Interesting. But they haven't sailed yet. So whether they will be allowed is still the question. And if they believe what a Carnival agent tells them....But good luck to them.

[tallyho8]

Interesting. But they haven't sailed yet. So whether they will be allowed is still the question. And if they believe what a Carnival agent tells them....But good luck to them.

 

I don't know what else I can post to convince some of you that I have been on btb cruises with foreigners who I have made friends with who have been on both legs of these btb cruises that were NOT eligible to be booked by Americans.

 

I suppose that some of you may want me to get a notarized affidavit from them stating this fact but I am sure that some of you would even believe that.

 

As I said before, I am not sure if it is legal, or if the foreign subsidiaries of Carnival where the people book these cruises have different rules where they can't charge them the $300 fine. I just know that people do it and they aren't fined.

[crzndeb]

I don't know what else I can post to convince some of you that I have been on btb cruises with foreigners who I have made friends with who have been on both legs of these btb cruises that were NOT eligible to be booked by Americans.

 

I suppose that some of you may want me to get a notarized affidavit from them stating this fact but I am sure that some of you would even believe that.

 

As I said before, I am not sure if it is legal, or if the foreign subsidiaries of Carnival where the people book these cruises have different rules where they can't charge them the $300 fine. I just know that people do it and they aren't fined.

 

You don't have to convince me. I believe you. I am sure that there are Americans that have also been able to slide by. It's like anything else...some people always speed and never get caught.

 

Just saying, it is a law and if one is going to try and book it, just beware, it could come back to bite them.

[Denisomo]

My husband and I did this in May of this year, we booked the Hawaii cruise for 11 days and then a week later added the Alaska cruise to it to make it a BTB cruise. We changed our flights ($500) later to put everything into place. Within 2 weeks a Carnival rep called us to tell us we could not do this because of a little known law called the Jones Act, where an American leaves the US and travels to a foreign country, Canada, then leaves that foreign country and travels to the US, it's a $300 fine. I feel to pieces as we had just spent the $500 to change everything, they paid the fine and let us go.

[chengkp75]

My husband and I did this in May of this year, we booked the Hawaii cruise for 11 days and then a week later added the Alaska cruise to it to make it a BTB cruise. We changed our flights ($500) later to put everything into place. Within 2 weeks a Carnival rep called us to tell us we could not do this because of a little known law called the Jones Act, where an American leaves the US and travels to a foreign country, Canada, then leaves that foreign country and travels to the US, it's a $300 fine. I feel to pieces as we had just spent the $500 to change everything, they paid the fine and let us go.

 

Well, Carnival and many agents for the various lines refer to it as the Jones Act, but as noted before, it is the PVSA. It is not that you leave the US, travel to Canada and then return to the US, it is that you are travelling from one US city to another on a foreign flag ship. My guess is that since they originally let you book, and you experienced a fee for changing your flights for a cruise that they shouldn't have let you on in the first place, you would have had a claim for that $500 or more from them. Since the fine is only $300, they did not pass that on to you, as it was cheaper for them.

 

I rather doubt that many people "slide by" on the PVSA, as CBP is very strict in its enforcement of the PVSA, and they get the passenger manifests showing where pax boarded and where they intend to depart. Let's face it, its the government. Strict enforcement shows that their jobs are needed, as well as boosting the US treasury by $300/per.

 

I won't deny you may have spoken to people who thought they did this, but that there was some small wrinkle that actually allowed it for everyone, not just non-US citizens.

[tallyho8]

When I was on the Conquest repo from New Orleans to San Juan which went next to Miami, there were several foreign couples we spoke to that were btb although we were not allowed to go btb and other Americans on our roll call were also denied to go btb. (This cruise did not go to the ABC islands).

 

My opinion on this (strictly opinion, not fact) is that they booked this cruise on a foreign web site instead of on the US site and the foreign site may not have it in their rules and regulations that the cruise line can pass the $300 PVSA fine on to the passenger and that the cruise line makes enough off of this cruise that they simply allow it and pay the fine themselves.

Edited December 30, 2015 by tallyho8

[crzndeb]

Uh Oh....just saw on Legend roll calls, that somebody has booked a b2b Alaska (leaving from Seattle) and then to Hawaii for Sept2017.

Edited December 30, 2015 by crzndeb