Unhappy people on the Oosterdam 10/15/05

[Allis154]

It really does beg the question, how thorough of a cleaning is done after a nudest cruise?

 

That is the first thing that my DH said after I told him about this cruise!

[doxiemom]

There has not been any situation on a HAL cruise that caused us to question the level of cleanliness that the line adheres to. Over the last several years though, various TV networks have shown that bedspreads are the most suspect item in any hotel room. We have made a point of avoiding contact with them on cruise ships or in hotel rooms. We fold them decorative side "in" and set them aside.

In late August 05 on our precruise night in Amsterdam, our bedspread had a major disgusting problem. I noticed thenext AM there was a huge housekeeping cart in the hallway piled high with clean spreads. IMO the hotel got the message. Spreads and blankets are not changed out as towels and sheets are.

 

Kay, Las Vegas

[Iggipolka]

The general ettiquite for nudists or naturists (as many prefer to be called), is that they always have a towel with them. The towel is placed on a seat before sitting and frequently the towel is wrapped around the waist when in areas where there is food.

 

I'm less concerned about naturists chartering an entire ship, than I am about groups like PH. It seems like PH needs to also charter the whole ship, since they basically take it over anyway.

[RetRanger]

Personally, I wouldn't waste my time writing to PH's people. I place 100% of the blame for their actions on HAL. HAL was the one who gave them the entire late dinner seating. HAL tolerated their vulgar behavior onboard and didn't say a word about it, thus letting them feel that their actions were okay.

 

Writing directly to the CEO of PH along with Hal would be extreamly effective. If every CCer who was inconvienced wrote to PH it very well could have a positive effect of the next PH cruise. By not informing the CEO that the behavior of his employees has a negative effect on the perception of his company by the public it is likely to continue.

 

kryos, I am not sure why you would tell people they should not write letters to PH, who do you work for?

[richcrow]

I don't know if it has been posted on here yet, but Princess House is doing it again. They are booking another Alaskan cruise on the Zaandam for May 19th through May 26th. DW and I have been considering Alaska in 2006. You can rest assured that it will not be on Zaandam on May 19th.

 

Richard

[kryos]

Writing directly to the CEO of PH along with Hal would be extreamly effective. If every CCer who was inconvienced wrote to PH it very well could have a positive effect of the next PH cruise. By not informing the CEO that the behavior of his employees has a negative effect on the perception of his company by the public it is likely to continue.

 

kryos, I am not sure why you would tell people they should not write letters to PH, who do you work for?

I work for a newspaper ... rest assured, not PH. :)

 

I'm not saying people shouldn't write letters to PH. I'm merely saying that I think they're wasting their time. If I were the CEO of PH, would I give a crap if a small number of cruisers were unhappy because of my company's group cruise? Hell, no! My concern would be if MY people were happy ... because it is my people that I am concerned about. They are the ones who are generating the sales numbers that are making my company rich ... not a bunch of HAL cruisers who are boo hooing to me because they lost their late dining slot. Who cares?

 

I would merely have my PR department draw up a form letter ... saying "gee, we're sorry you didn't enjoy your cruise, but outings such as this are very important for our company morale and we could see no other alternative but to take over the late seating for our awards ceremonies ... blah ... blah ... blah ... " In short, next cruise Princess House will draw on those things which made this past cruise successful ... that is successful in PH's eyes ... not the eyes of non-PH people. If late seating worked out great for them on this cruise and HAL will let them do it, guess what? They'll take over late seating on the next one too. And, no amount of letter writing by disgruntled HAL passengers is gonna matter a drop.

 

Besides, let's get real here. Of all those passengers on this recent sailing who had their dining times changed, how many of them are actually gonna write letters? How many of them even know about Cruise Critic and the dialogue here about this subject? Most of them will come home from that cruise, and forget about the inconvenience of early dining. Some of them won't even care that their time was changed because they will have gotten little "compensations" from HAL for the change ... and maybe it turned out that early dining worked out well for them afterall.

 

I hate to say it, but I'd be willing to bet no one in authority at PH will even bother to read most of those letters. Once the first one or two come in, the PR department will draw up a form letter in response and then some clerk or secretary will be assigned to open the letters and dash off the pre-written, pre-printed and pre-signed by the company president form letter.

 

Sadly, that's just the way it is in business today. :(

 

Personally, I'd invest my time in writing to HAL ... although I question how effective that will be. Maybe if HAL gets enough complaints about groups, though, there is a chance ... albeit a small one ... that they may take steps to ensure one group isn't allowed to hog an entire dining seating again.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[RetRanger]

Kyros

You would not be in business long or be very successful if that was your attitude regarding the public image of your company. You also seem to have alot of inside information regarding what this company would or would not do with complaint letters. Does your newspaper handle input from the public in a simular manner.

If this is how you view how companies operate why suggest that people even write to HAL?

 

You are right if nobody from the cruise writes to PH as well as their complaints are pretty meaningless, but if most take the time a smart CEO would take notice. I would even suggest that cruisers that were not on this cruise write and let the company know that if this is their attitude towards the public they will not receive their business

[kryos]

Kyros

You would not be in business long or be very successful if that was your attitude regarding the public image of your company. You also seem to have alot of inside information regarding what this company would or would not do with complaint letters. Does your newspaper handle input from the public in a simular manner.

If this is how you view how companies operate why suggest that people even write to HAL?

 

You are right if nobody from the cruise writes to PH as well as their complaints are pretty meaningless, but if most take the time a smart CEO would take notice. I would even suggest that cruisers that were not on this cruise write and let the company know that if this is their attitude towards the public they will not receive their business

My company had a reader ombudsman for years ... it was his job to handle complaints from readers by either sending them a thoughtful letter ... which obviously was individualized (believe me, I know ... I used to type them from dictation years ago) or by trying to intercede on their behalf with the proper department.

 

However, as budgets got tighter and tighter, this position was eliminated. While I am not privy these days as to how such things are being handled (I've long been promoted to the computer center and work night shift), I would imagine people are lucky to get a form letter. Now, I'm talking here about complaints regarding the editorial content of the newspaper ... not circulation, advertising, etc.

 

I would imagine the same to be true of Princess House. I honestly don't think this is a company with a whole lot of people in the "corporate" office. They appear to be basically an MLM type operation ... most of their people are in the trenches ... giving parties, selling merchandise and recruiting others to do the same. Management wants them to keep on doing those things, and doing them well. Therefore, it would stand to reason that management's only concern would be keeping them happy ... not the few disgruntled HAL passengers who write to them.

 

Why do I think people should write to HAL? Because those cruisers are HAL's customers ... HAL *HAS* to worry about what they think. PH does not. A thoughtfully worded letter to HAL about this cruise experience could go a long way ... or at the very least catch the attention of upper management. I doubt very much the same will hold true at PH. The letters that PH will be concerned about will be the ones from their own reps who maybe have a complaint about something that happened on the cruise ... and believe me, there will be some of those letters ... clearly everything couldn't have gone perfectly for a group that large ... and PH will be concentrating their efforts on those letters ... and making THEIR people happy.

 

Sorry, but that's just the way it is with companies that depend upon the productivity of their salespeople so heavily.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[Candy]

I hope that we are not assuming that HAL did nothing to control the activities of this group, and simply gave in to a customer who has paid for half the ship. I think I would rather have my dinner seating changed than suffer the table-hooping, high-fiving, self-serving antics of this [perceived] low-class group. HAL may have actually done those complaining cruisers a favor. That said, I think the Showroom might have been a better venue for the awards presentation... certainly the sight-lines are better.

 

The ship's officers and staff might not have forseen the difficulties this particular group could create, and we may never know what steps were taken to ensure the other passengers were not negatively affected. Once a group of this size is on the ship, damage control may be a nightmare. I, for one, am giving them the benefit of the doubt, and know they will learn from this experience, and pray there are no surprises on my cruises.

 

Candy <-- sailing on Zuidy # 6 in 15 days

[HalFan]

If you go back to page 3, post #45, of this thread, you will see that karowd2 reported that Princess House did this before on the Maasdam and caused a lot of trouble. So this group is well-known to HAL. There was no excuse to allow them back on their ships again, but they did it anyway. Maybe this latest fiasco will change their minds. If they don't, then HAL really is just looking for $$$ and to h*** with their long-time customers. Hello Celebrity!

[ekerr19]

Wow! Interesting reading the entire thread. I have always thought that HAL needs to be much more upfront with pax regarding group bookings.

 

I, for one, have no desire to cruise on a ship filled with like minded groups whether it be sales, marketing, religious, technical, employment, occupation, or otherwise. Perhaps only with fellow cruise lovers.

 

Generally, we avoid any group cruise sailing like the plague. Had my dining time been changed to early or cancelled, I would be one very unhappy passenger - and no amount of compensation would make any difference.

 

As far as the rowdy behavior on board - well, we've seen more and more of this type of occurance recently. It seems to be rather like lowering the bar or standard, so to speak. I don't expect it will get better - only worse.

 

I was not surprised to read of HAL's lackluster ratings and see a slip in ranking in my recent edition of Conde Nast's Top 100.

 

We have given serious consideration to other lines - if HAL chooses to continue lowering their standards - and they no longer provide the product we enjoy, we're fairly certain we will be able to find a cruise line who will do so. :)

 

In fact, we are booked on Celebrity for summer 2006 - and looking forward to it.

[Joanandjoe]

ekerr, every cruise ship has some groups onboard-you can't avoid them! Even on our recent Radisson cruise we had a group of about 30 people from a Japanese TA. There was a group on the Wind Surf as well, and our only Celebrity cruise (goodbye, Horizon, we'll miss you!) also had some groups. A group of 30 or even 100 probably won't have any significant impact on a cruise. A group of 1,000 is another story. Even if everyone were well behaved - which PH apparently wasn't - such a large group would interfere with the enjoyment of other cruisers.

 

Have a great time on your summer, 2006 Celebrity tour. If you like HAL, you'll like Celebrity; but don't kid yourself into thinking that Celebrity would turn down a large group. For individual cruisers, it's pretty much the luck of the draw.

[kryos]

If you go back to page 3, post #45, of this thread, you will see that karowd2 reported that Princess House did this before on the Maasdam and caused a lot of trouble. So this group is well-known to HAL. There was no excuse to allow them back on their ships again, but they did it anyway. Maybe this latest fiasco will change their minds. If they don't, then HAL really is just looking for $$$ and to h*** with their long-time customers. Hello Celebrity!

Groups are big bucks. Believe me, HAL knew about their behavior and also probably knew that they were demanding to all have the same dining time. Therefore, when they confirmed individual passengers late dining times prior to boarding, they knew upfront that they wouldn't be able to honor that commitment.

 

When a group of over a thousand people is willing to book a cruise, the cruise line will generally jump through hoops to get them onboard and make sure they are kept very, very happy. They will throw some "bones" to other passengers who have been inconvenienced by the group, but believe me ... they will book that group again next year regardless of a few individual passenger complaints. They won't turn down the kind of money that group represents.

 

Who knows? On PH's next cruise, maybe all non-PH people will be relegated to the Lido for all of their dinners. :(

 

The other thing I want to mention is that even the luxury lines cater to groups. There was a thread on the Radisson board and on another board catering to luxury cruise travelers (hint, hint) :) talking about a group of 300 on the Paul Gaugin (sp?). That ship has a much smaller passenger capacity, so the group of 300 comprised probably about half the ship's sailing capacity. The group got priority tendering, priority transfer to the airport, priority use of the dining room, etc. I only wish I could remember the name of the thread, but the passenger who wrote it was very upset. She signed on for a b2b on that ship and said the first week was heavenly since she was part of a smaller group herself that week ... from the travel agency sponsoring that board. The second week, she stayed onboard for the second half of her b2b and found that the first night all non-group passengers were relegated to the buffet because the group had reserved the dining room for a private function. She was livid because they were paying top dollar for this luxury cruise, and were being treated as "coach class" passengers in deference to the group.

 

So, it appears all ships and all lines will welcome these large groups with open arms and will definitely work with the organizations that sponsor them to ensure the group has a good experience while onboard, even if that means inconveniencing other passengers who are not part of the group.

 

I've said it before and will say it again ... stay away from seven-day or shorter cruises, and you should be okay. While you may have groups, those groups will be small in nature and not of the type that will overrun a cruise ship.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[kryos]

I hope that we are not assuming that HAL did nothing to control the activities of this group, and simply gave in to a customer who has paid for half the ship. I think I would rather have my dinner seating changed than suffer the table-hooping, high-fiving, self-serving antics of this [perceived] low-class group. HAL may have actually done those complaining cruisers a favor.

I would personally rather be told that I was bumped from a cruise because a large group chartered the ship than even be onboard with such a group. When I pay my good money for a cruise, I want to feel special ... catered too. I don't want to feel that my needs all week are being subjugated to the group. Being a second class citizen, while paying first class bucks, is not my idea of a good time. Personally, I'd rather be staying home than endure that.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[Joanandjoe]

Kyros, although I was on the LCT board for several months, I didn't see the thread about the Paul Gauguin, which has a capacity of 320 PAX, because I was focusing on the Seven Seas Navigator. If there were 300 people in a group on the ship, it's surprising that it wasn't a full charter. I'd certainly have hated to be one of the 20 other people.

 

It's nice in theory to avoid 7 day cruises; but if one only has two or three weeks of vacation, that's not easy to do. It would help if HAL scheduled its 10 and 11 day trips the same way Celebrity does: a 10 day trip starting on a Friday and ending on a Monday, followed by an 11 day trip starting on a Monday and ending on a Friday. Even so, a 10 day trip starting on a Friday or Saturday would use 7 precious vacation days, even if one is foolish or lucky enough to travel on embarkation and disembarkation days.

[xpcdoojk]

ekerr, every cruise ship has some groups onboard-you can't avoid them! Even on our recent Radisson cruise we had a group of about 30 people from a Japanese TA. There was a group on the Wind Surf as well, and our only Celebrity cruise (goodbye, Horizon, we'll miss you!) also had some groups. A group of 30 or even 100 probably won't have any significant impact on a cruise. A group of 1,000 is another story. Even if everyone were well behaved - which PH apparently wasn't - such a large group would interfere with the enjoyment of other cruisers.

 

Have a great time on your summer, 2006 Celebrity tour. If you like HAL, you'll like Celebrity; but don't kid yourself into thinking that Celebrity would turn down a large group. For individual cruisers, it's pretty much the luck of the draw.

 

So true!

 

We were on the RCI Legend of the Seas for a 16 day cruise from New Zealand to hawaii in 2003 it coincided with the America's Cup races. A Swiss TA (nice guy BTW) had a group of about 200 German Swiss folks that had combined the America's Cup races with a cruise to Tahiti and Hawaii. Other than several older men in small bikini suits at the pool they caused no problem at all. However, groups are a fact of sailing. The problem is when does a group cause problems for the rest of the passengers, and the answer is it depends on the group. All cruiselines participate booking group cruises. All cruiselines keep it a secret from the others booking a cruise. Do you think the cruise lines should discriminate against individuals. IE they remember that you are a pain in the bottom passenger that doesn't tip, should they deny selling you a cruise. What is the difference between a person and a group? Is it Ok to discriminate against a group, because they share some trait? Whether it be homosexual, racial, financial, musical, religious. I think many on this thread are advocating things that they really haven't thought out.

 

I think fleeing HAL for any other line is a little over the top considering the facts. Doesn't mean I like it, but it does mean that so much of this anger is just noise.

 

jc

[trubey]

How about the premium cruise lines? Seabourne (I know, I know, it's owned by HAL) or Silversea or something? Has anybody been on one of their cruises who has had a problem with a group?

 

I'll post the same question on their board(s) and report back . . .

 

Lane

[lizf]

JoanandJoe- The cruise on the PG was the one right after PIP. A few passengers from PIP stayed on for another trip. GCT, who recently bought the ship, had a large group and they really did take over. I guess coming off of the PIP cruise where they were the main passengers, to be told they had to eat dinner in the buffet and generally be ignored was even more noticeable. I had planned a rather lengthy cruise from New Zealand to LA on RCCL, and I cancelled it rather then risk such a fiasco and probably will not ever cruise Radisson because of the way they treated their customers over GCT.

 

RCI and NCL have both pulled similar things on us. You just grin and bear it. HAL will do whatever is best for HAL. They all do. They will do whatever sells to the younger crowd because they make up the majority. We are seniors and on our last NCL cruise, when I asked the cruise director whether NCL was mainly trying to attract the younger crowd, she smiled REAL BIG at me and said "Yes" very enthusiastically. Kinda told me where we stood even though it was our 12th cruise on NCL. Oh, yeah, it also was our last cruise on NCL. Ever. Now we will cruise whatever line offers what we are looking for and will shop for the best price available. No intention of becoming repeat customers unless it suits us for a particular cruise. Older and wiser!

[Copper10-8]

Just a heads up; Seabourn is owned by Carnival, not by HAL:)

[kryos]

JoanandJoe- The cruise on the PG was the one right after PIP. A few passengers from PIP stayed on for another trip. GCT, who recently bought the ship, had a large group and they really did take over.

I just spent close to an hour on that other board trying to locate the thread ... but yes, this is exactly the cruise I am talking about. The woman who wrote the review was absolutely livid ... and frankly, I don't blame her. For what Radisson charges for a cruise, I'd expect the royal treatment ... and these passengers just didn't get it. The part of the review I particularly enjoyed was when she talked about non-group folks waiting in the hot sun on the private island ... wanting to take the tender back to the ship. A tender arrives and discharges a bunch of the group's people on the island, and then tries to prevent the non-group passengers from boarding to go back to the ship. The tender captain said that they didn't have time to load people, but had to head right back to the ship to get the rest of the group members. These non-group members basically stormed the tender, got on and refused to budge. The tender pilot had no choice but to take them back on that tender. They weren't waiting for the next one.

 

Crap like that there is no excuse for. Whether you are part of a group or an individual traveler, when you pay your money you have a right to expect a certain level of service, certain perks, etc. While it's certainly okay to offer special perks to a large group, those perks shouldn't come off the backs of other passengers. They should come off the backs of the cruise line. Fine, give them specially-designed shore excursions for free, or free wine with dinner ... whatever. But don't give them things that involve taking away entitlements from other cruise passengers. That's just not fair.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[trubey]

Just a heads up; Seabourn is owned by Carnival, not by HAL:)

 

 

You're right -- it was 'Seadream' I was looking at which says on its website it's a division of HAL -- not 'Seabourn'. Silly me.

 

Of course, it's all the same big glutz though, isn't it?

 

Lane

:rolleyes:

[PRINSENDAM]

You're right -- it was 'Seadream' I was looking at which says on its website it's a division of HAL -- not 'Seabourn'. Silly me.

 

Of course, it's all the same big glutz though, isn't it?

 

Lane

:rolleyes:

 

 

Hi Lane,

 

What is 'Seadream'?

 

Or are you thinking of HAL's sailing ships which are run under the name 'Windstar'?

 

Stephen

[Bramcruiser]

I would personally rather be told that I was bumped from a cruise because a large group chartered the ship than even be onboard with such a group. When I pay my good money for a cruise, I want to feel special ... catered too. I don't want to feel that my needs all week are being subjugated to the group. Being a second class citizen, while paying first class bucks, is not my idea of a good time. Personally, I'd rather be staying home than endure that.

--rita

 

 

Exactly. I was disappointed that my Oosterdam Pacific Northwest cruise that I originally booked had been cancelled due to a chartering of the ship which lead to me being rebooked on the Vancouver-San Diego repositioning. However, despite the iteniary change I must admit I rather not have some obnoxious group take over the ship and MY holiday. I don't mind sharing a ship with 1,800 people but I don't want all 1,800 people to prevent me from doing a thing.

 

I guess we'll all have to accept that sometimes large groups will continue to book a voyage and not all will be charters so we just have to live with them. But at the same time I think rules of conduct should apply to both group and non-group passengers and that the line and staff should be well made aware that its okay for griping from the non-group people because they paid their hard-earned money to be on vacation and they should get one.

 

Unfortunately I have to agree with the person who said they don't patron any one line and book with whomever they feel is right at the time. I loved my first HAL experience and it won't likely be the last but there is nothing to make me so I will ONLY do them either.

[trubey]

Hi Lane,

 

What is 'Seadream'?

 

Or are you thinking of HAL's sailing ships which are run under the name 'Windstar'?

 

Stephen

 

Yes!! By George, that's what it's called!

 

Seadream is another expensive cruise line. Just put seadream in your browser and you can find it easily.

 

lkt

[PRINSENDAM]

Yes!! By George, that's what it's called!

 

Seadream is another expensive cruise line. Just put seadream in your browser and you can find it easily.

 

lkt

 

 

 

Yes, I know Seadream. They are the old Sea Goddess ships from Cunard/Seabourn

 

But Windstar... I knew we would get there eventually! :)

 

Stephen