Tendering warning

[Salacia]

Perhaps a passenger who has accepted the invitation to attend the tender briefing and the "short mobility assessment" on board will kindly share their experience, please? Thanks. -S.

[Solent Richard]

I hadn't noticed this before - is it a new procedure?

 

"Mobility assessment

 

If you have reduced mobility, this must be registered at the time of booking or as soon as the need is known by completing a medical and mobility questionnaire. You will be invited to a tender briefing on board and given the opportunity to take part in a short mobility assessment. This must be completed independently, by this we mean on your own without any assistance. If an officer decides you are not safe to board, please respect their decision as this is for your own safety.

 

 

 

If you have impaired mobility, or use a mobility aid such as a stick, then we ask you to carefully consider your ability to embark the tender safely before you make your way down to the platform. Please take into consideration the use of steps, the gap and height difference between the platform and the tender, and the potential movement of the tender when making your decision.

 

If you use a wheelchair or mobility scooter, you or your travelling companion are responsible for assembling and disassembling your wheelchair/mobility scooter. The crew will endeavour to assist where practical and safe to do so and providing that no individual part weighs more than 20kg..."

more here: https://ask.cunard.com/help/fleet/tender

 

I would like to see an additional item added with regard to those with 'impaired' mobility using tenders - no matter what cruise line.

 

"In order to minimise any pressure on those with 'impaired' mobility issues, it is requested that any such person remain inside the tender until all able bodied passengers have disembarked the tender".

 

I realise that it is a different scenario but it is good practice on airlines.

[Solent Richard]

Though of course not Queen Elizabeth, here are two images that illustrate Cunard tender operations...

 

 

 

The second photograph clearly illustrates the role of the two seamen assisting passengers and also the presence of an officer in a supervising capacity.

[Salacia]

I would like to see an additional item added with regard to those with 'impaired' mobility using tenders - no matter what cruise line.

 

"In order to minimise any pressure on those with 'impaired' mobility issues, it is requested that any such person remain inside the tender until all able bodied passengers have disembarked the tender".

 

I realise that it is a different scenario but it is good practice on airlines.

 

Seems to me that passengers with mobility issues sit as close to the exit of the tender as possible, so wouldn't it make sense for them to disembark first? Anyway, I don't mind waiting until those needing added assistance have disembarked. That way, they'll be first in line for the elevators once on board, which is as it should be (some cruise ships are far more civil than some airlines :) ) -S.

[Chunky2219]

I would like to see an additional item added with regard to those with 'impaired' mobility using tenders - no matter what cruise line.

 

"In order to minimise any pressure on those with 'impaired' mobility issues, it is requested that any such person remain inside the tender until all able bodied passengers have disembarked the tender".

 

I realise that it is a different scenario but it is good practice on airlines.

There's really only two options on this front.

 

Either we can be first on the tender, sitting at the back to come off last. It works great on airlines, I'm 10 minutes early to the gate and I'm in my seat with the wheelchair in the hold before "normal" pax get to the plane. I'm last off but usually make it to the carousel to see my luggage emerge, while everyone who has been jostling the aisle to get off the plane has been standing around waiting for the rubber belt to start up. Will that work on a tender, where the slightest delay gets the malcontents grumbling? I doubt it.

 

The second option is for us to be last on the tender (as is usually the case now) with the wheelchair in the aisle by the door. It works a treat and adds precious few seconds to the wait but I do appreciate that it's stealing time from those keen to hit land and shop 'till they drop.

 

The other option, of course is that we could all be kept in a corner until everyone else is off the ship and then herded on to the tender like so many wounded cattle on their way to the abbatoir. Ditto for the return journey. Personally, I'd be happy to wait at the quayside in the rain for a few hours if it made life a bit more tolerable for everyone else. :rolleyes:

 

 

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[Solent Richard]

Seems to me that passengers with mobility issues sit as close to the exit of the tender as possible, so wouldn't it make sense for them to disembark first? Anyway, I don't mind waiting until those needing added assistance have disembarked. That way, they'll be first in line for the elevators once on board, which is as it should be (some cruise ships are far more civil than some airlines :) ) -S.

 

Hi there Salacia.

 

Interesting theory.

 

I'd have thought, however, that those more able could have sped on, used the elevators (Lifts here in the UK), and they, the elevators/lifts would still be back in position for the slower passengers on time.

[Salacia]

Hi there Salacia.

 

Interesting theory.

 

I'd have thought, however, that those more able could have sped on, used the elevators (Lifts here in the UK), and they, the elevators/lifts would still be back in position for the slower passengers on time.

 

 

Yes, of course there would be those who "sped on" there always is...and there are those who know better.

[Chunky2219]

Yes, of course there would be those who "sped on" there always is...and there are those who know better.

I've never quite figured out why the ones who speed off the tender suddenly run out of steam and need to take the lift anyway.

 

Countless times I've been sitting there in front of the lift, usually with a scooter jockey beside me as the second tender disgorges it's cargo of people eager to hit the buffet before they (presumably) get hit by a hypoglycemic coma. They jostle their way to the front and by the time we're done, there's often not enough room for a wheelchair and a scooter so one of us ends up waiting for the lull between tenders to actually get in a lift. It's okay folks, there's plenty of food to go around and a couple of flights of stairs would help you work up a decent appetite.

 

 

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[tangoll]

Any further updates from the coroner's hearing? There should be more questioning into the witness' statement that about the tender staff, "They panicked."

[balf]

Any further updates from the coroner's hearing? There should be more questioning into the witness' statement that about the tender staff, "They panicked."

 

 

Non since last week, could be possible that the hearing has been adjourned, as often happens with inquests.

 

I'll keep looking and post when there is any more news.

 

David.

[balf]

I've never quite figured out why the ones who speed off the tender suddenly run out of steam and need to take the lift anyway.

 

Countless times I've been sitting there in front of the lift, usually with a scooter jockey beside me as the second tender disgorges it's cargo of people eager to hit the buffet before they (presumably) get hit by a hypoglycemic coma. They jostle their way to the front and by the time we're done, there's often not enough room for a wheelchair and a scooter so one of us ends up waiting for the lull between tenders to actually get in a lift. It's okay folks, there's plenty of food to go around and a couple of flights of stairs would help you work up a decent appetite.

.

 

 

To be fair it's quite often more than a couple of flights, and dodgy knees, hips, and heart conditions that are not apparent to see can mean that others need lifts as well as chair users.

 

David.

 

 

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[Ray66]

Any further updates from the coroner's hearing? There should be more questioning into the witness' statement that about the tender staff, "They panicked."

 

Yes. They were just reporting on the local BBC news from outside the Court. The reporter said a photo was shown in court of a new device to bridge the gap.

Cunard "have made changes".

The family's barrister said "lessons must be learned".

Apparently there's been some sort of disagreement of what the Coroner should do. The family's barrister want a "narrative verdict".

The other barrister (John Kimbell) wants an "accidental death" verdict.

 

(apologies for any mistakes).

[tangoll]

Yes. They were just reporting on the local BBC news from outside the Court. The reporter said a photo was shown in court of a new device to bridge the gap.

Cunard "have made changes".

The family's barrister said "lessons must be learned".

Apparently there's been some sort of disagreement of what the Coroner should do. The family's barrister want a "narrative verdict".

The other barrister (John Kimbell) wants an "accidental death" verdict.

 

(apologies for any mistakes).

 

Hmmm, this is a coroner's court to investigate the background and cause of a death, and it's strange that the court would look at a photo of the new device or the changes that have been made. A lot of good that does Mary Atherton or her family.

[Ray66]

Coroner Dr James Adeley recorded a death of misadventure, stating the retired teacher’s mobility problems meant she could not step across the 40cm gap caused by an unexpected wave.

 

Although independent marine expert Christopher Metson stated the tendering operation should have been stopped because of the tender boat’s movements, Dr Adeley said Mr Metson’s evidence had been ambiguous and was affected by hindsight.

 

He also concluded that it was “wholly impracticable” for tender staff to know of the mobility information supplied by 1800 passengers using tenders, and despite concerns raised in court that assistance provided to Mrs Atherton by crewman and their training was insufficient, said he did not believe those factors contributed to her death.

 

Mrs Atherton’s son Michael, 41, said he has been left concerned for the safety of cruise passengers with mobility issues using tenders.

 

He said: “Given the considerable movement of the tender boat as shown on CCTV footage, it is of great disappointment that Carnival (which owns the Cunard brand) do not accept the conclusion of the independent experienced maritime experts that the disembarkation should have been stopped and my mother, whose mobility difficulties were obvious to the crew, should have been asked to sit back down until conditions had improved.

 

“My mother was explicit in declaring her disability and need for mobility assistance to Carnival and we are staggered to have heard that the information she provided was not communicated to crew members in charge of the tender operations and that they had not been given training upon helping passengers with mobility difficulties.

 

“We remain concerned that my mother was not advised of the risks of using tenders, particularly regarding the potential movement of the tender and gap between the pontoon and tender.

 

“The safety video now used to warn about the use of tenders since my mother’s death, available on the companies website, shows little if any movement of the tender and bears no resemblance to the reality of the actual conditions faced by my Mother as seen on the CCTV footage.”

 

Since the tragedy, Carnival UK, which owns Cunard, has brought in new safety procedures, including more training, deploying an additional crew member and making sure passengers can step unaided across a 45cm gap.

 

They have also designed a ‘brow’, a type of mobile gangway, for use in tender embarkation and disembarkation.

 

http://www.lep.co.uk/your-lancashire/south-ribble/penwortham/pensioner-s-cruise-death-a-misadventure-says-coroner-1-7865336

[tangoll]

Coroner Dr James Adeley recorded a death of misadventure, stating the retired teacher’s mobility problems meant she could not step across the 40cm gap caused by an unexpected wave.

 

Although independent marine expert Christopher Metson stated the tendering operation should have been stopped because of the tender boat’s movements, Dr Adeley said Mr Metson’s evidence had been ambiguous and was affected by hindsight.

 

He also concluded that it was “wholly impracticable” for tender staff to know of the mobility information supplied by 1800 passengers using tenders, and despite concerns raised in court that assistance provided to Mrs Atherton by crewman and their training was insufficient, said he did not believe those factors contributed to her death.

 

Mrs Atherton’s son Michael, 41, said he has been left concerned for the safety of cruise passengers with mobility issues using tenders.

 

He said: “Given the considerable movement of the tender boat as shown on CCTV footage, it is of great disappointment that Carnival (which owns the Cunard brand) do not accept the conclusion of the independent experienced maritime experts that the disembarkation should have been stopped and my mother, whose mobility difficulties were obvious to the crew, should have been asked to sit back down until conditions had improved.

 

“My mother was explicit in declaring her disability and need for mobility assistance to Carnival and we are staggered to have heard that the information she provided was not communicated to crew members in charge of the tender operations and that they had not been given training upon helping passengers with mobility difficulties.

 

“We remain concerned that my mother was not advised of the risks of using tenders, particularly regarding the potential movement of the tender and gap between the pontoon and tender.

 

“The safety video now used to warn about the use of tenders since my mother’s death, available on the companies website, shows little if any movement of the tender and bears no resemblance to the reality of the actual conditions faced by my Mother as seen on the CCTV footage.”

 

Since the tragedy, Carnival UK, which owns Cunard, has brought in new safety procedures, including more training, deploying an additional crew member and making sure passengers can step unaided across a 45cm gap.

 

They have also designed a ‘brow’, a type of mobile gangway, for use in tender embarkation and disembarkation.

 

http://www.lep.co.uk/your-lancashire/south-ribble/penwortham/pensioner-s-cruise-death-a-misadventure-says-coroner-1-7865336

 

Thanks for the update. As stated in an earlier post, I was off the tender and back on board QE for about 5 minutes when the lady captain made an announcement asking pax to refrain from photographing or taking video of the incident. I guess those pax videos and photographs might show the actual sea conditions better than the video posted in the newspaper report. Not sure what that attached video was intended to show -- no time/date and taken from so far away that no detail could be discerned.

 

I am not mobility challenged, and I don't recall any big waves or large movements of the tender or pontoon/platform, upon going ashore or returning to the QE. I only stayed ashore about 20 - 30 minutes as it was not a very interesting port stop near Sihanoukville, Cambodia.

 

Even in calm seas, there is movement between the tender and pontoon on all the tender operations that Cunard had provided on all the cruises I have taken with Cunard (over 15 as I just made Diamond). And there are always two staff on either side of the pontoon's landing to assist pax, usually ladies, to step off the tender onto the pontoon. While it may be obvious to these staff which pax has mobility issues, it is impractical to expect that they can identify specifically which pax had earlier notified Cunard that he/she needs more special attention than provided at the site.

 

The ultimate responsibility has to lie with the pax to decide whether he/she wishes to avail him/herself of the "optional" tender service provided by the ship. I don't see how any other conclusion can be arrived at other than "Misadventure".

 

Mrs. Atherton's son Michael's comments are not logical under the circumstances. I guess he's trying to find fault lies with Carnival. He may have had better luck if the coroner's court had been held in the US, rather than the UK, and to pursue his case for liability and damages on the part of the service provider if the case were applied for in the US.

 

It is not practical for the crew to ask a pax to sit back down and wait for a calmer movement before exiting the tender, because the crew would likely hear an objection from the pax who just wants to get off the tender and back onto the air conditioned comfort of the QE and lunch/afternoon tea onboard, plus there would be whining and grumbling from the pax waiting to board the tender for the trip ashore. No way for "should have been, would have been."

Edited April 21, 2016 by tangoll
Added last paragraph

[BlueRiband]

 

Mrs. Atherton's son Michael's comments are not logical under the circumstances. I guess he's trying to find fault lies with Carnival. He may have had better luck if the coroner's court had been held in the US, rather than the UK, and to pursue his case for liability and damages on the part of the service provider if the case were applied for in the US....

 

Or perhaps not. The Costa Concordia families tried to sue in the US since Carnival's corporate headquarters is in Miami, Florida. The case was thrown out in January with the judge stating, "Litigating in Florida would result in material and manifest injustice to Carnival because the vast majority of evidence is located in Italy, as are virtually all of the witnesses..."

 

Another interesting point: In US courts Cunard's revision of tendering safety procedures could not be used as evidence that the old procedures were inadequate. This came up in the investigation of a serious accident involving the Staten Island Ferry. The legal reasoning is that nobody would revise their safety procedures if doing so was an admission of some earlier negligence.

[balf]

There is no bar on the family taking Carnival to court and claiming damages in UK. They would need to find a no win no fee solicitor who would take the case. Unlikely.

 

David.

[Solent Richard]

Thanks for the update. As stated in an earlier post, I was off the tender and back on board QE for about 5 minutes when the lady captain made an announcement asking pax to refrain from photographing or taking video of the incident. I guess those pax videos and photographs might show the actual sea conditions better than the video posted in the newspaper report. Not sure what that attached video was intended to show -- no time/date and taken from so far away that no detail could be discerned.

 

I am not mobility challenged, and I don't recall any big waves or large movements of the tender or pontoon/platform, upon going ashore or returning to the QE. I only stayed ashore about 20 - 30 minutes as it was not a very interesting port stop near Sihanoukville, Cambodia.

 

Even in calm seas, there is movement between the tender and pontoon on all the tender operations that Cunard had provided on all the cruises I have taken with Cunard (over 15 as I just made Diamond). And there are always two staff on either side of the pontoon's landing to assist pax, usually ladies, to step off the tender onto the pontoon. While it may be obvious to these staff which pax has mobility issues, it is impractical to expect that they can identify specifically which pax had earlier notified Cunard that he/she needs more special attention than provided at the site.

 

The ultimate responsibility has to lie with the pax to decide whether he/she wishes to avail him/herself of the "optional" tender service provided by the ship. I don't see how any other conclusion can be arrived at other than "Misadventure".

 

Mrs. Atherton's son Michael's comments are not logical under the circumstances. I guess he's trying to find fault lies with Carnival. He may have had better luck if the coroner's court had been held in the US, rather than the UK, and to pursue his case for liability and damages on the part of the service provider if the case were applied for in the US.

 

It is not practical for the crew to ask a pax to sit back down and wait for a calmer movement before exiting the tender, because the crew would likely hear an objection from the pax who just wants to get off the tender and back onto the air conditioned comfort of the QE and lunch/afternoon tea onboard, plus there would be whining and grumbling from the pax waiting to board the tender for the trip ashore. No way for "should have been, would have been."

 

Good morning Tangoll.

 

What an excellent summary. Having done many tender trips myself I fully concur with your view.

[balf]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask passengers to sit and wait until the crew tell them it's safe to disembark. If anyone doesn't like it tell them to make a complaint to the captain and see how far that gets them.

 

They are probably the same m....s who ignore the " For your safety and comfort, please remain seated with your seat belt fastened until the Captain turns off the Fasten Seat Belt sign" on every flight I have ever been on.

 

David.

[DreamflightPat]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask passengers to sit and wait until the crew tell them it's safe to disembark. If anyone doesn't like it tell them to make a complaint to the captain and see how far that gets them.

 

They are probably the same m....s who ignore the " For your safety and comfort, please remain seated with your seat belt fastened until the Captain turns off the Fasten Seat Belt sign" on every flight I have ever been on.

 

David.

Having been a Cabin Service Director on Longhaul routes for British Airways for 39 years, we always asked our passengers "needing assistance" to wait till last. And that goes for emergencies as well. That way, the aisles etc are clear and the crew can give their full attention to the passenger. I don't see why this shouldn't be the case on a tender. People with mobility problems should not sit in the doorways either. Hope this maybe explains a little

[balf]

Having been a Cabin Service Director on Longhaul routes for British Airways for 39 years, we always asked our passengers "needing assistance" to wait till last. And that goes for emergencies as well. That way, the aisles etc are clear and the crew can give their full attention to the passenger. I don't see why this shouldn't be the case on a tender. People with mobility problems should not sit in the doorways either. Hope this maybe explains a little

 

 

Yes, very well said.

 

David.

[Salacia]

Having been a Cabin Service Director on Longhaul routes for British Airways for 39 years, we always asked our passengers "needing assistance" to wait till last. And that goes for emergencies as well. That way, the aisles etc are clear and the crew can give their full attention to the passenger. I don't see why this shouldn't be the case on a tender. People with mobility problems should not sit in the doorways either. Hope this maybe explains a little

 

Hi DreamfightPat. I yield to your greater knowledge of airplane procedures, but my sense is that tenders and planes have different considerations.

 

From my observation, people with mobility issues tend to occupy the rows closest to the disembarkation exits because that is where the widest isles are located, and also walking in a moving vessel at sea (unlike boarding a stationary plane) can be problematic for some - and going upstairs to the upper deck is not an option for many. Ergo, the rows closest to the exit should be reserved for those with mobility issues who board last, and those passengers should be the first to disembark, sea conditions permitting. Last on, first off.

 

Of course, this is only my opinion based on my understanding that the tradition at sea is to help the most vulnerable first (which has also been my experience on land).

 

Salacia

Edited April 26, 2016 by Salacia

[goodsailors]

Further to previous messages, I wonder how many passengers with mobility issues will be able to cross a gap of 45cm unaided? In addition there will be many passengers who have walking issues, that they don't disclose in advance, and there are many, will be able to cross such a gap.

 

Surely the able bodied person traveling with the disabled passenger should be able to give a helping hand if the crew are not able to or now not allowed to. I have assisted my wife in the past with tendering and would hope to be able to do so again.

 

After all those people have to declare that they use a bus or coach with only the help of the able bodied person traveling with them.

[Salacia]

Something I'm having trouble understanding...

 

"...He [Coroner Dr James Adeley] also concluded that it was “wholly impracticable” for tender staff to know of the mobility information supplied by 1800 passengers using tenders..." http://www.lep.co.uk/your-lancashire/south-ribble/penwortham/son-hits-out-after-inquest-into-pensioner-s-death-on-cruise-1-7865336

 

Yet Cunard states:

"When booking your cruise, you need to tell us if you have a disability which might mean that you require additional assistance, in particular in an emergency situation.

 

Our Disability Team collate this information and ensure that each ship has a list of passengers requiring extra assistance, together with their stateroom numbers, before the ship sails..." quoted from https://ask.cunard.com/help/cunard/before-you-sail/Emergency_Assistance_Disabled

 

Would not this information be computerized and accessible on key cards when a passenger enters or leaves the ship, including prior to boarding a tender? While I don't expect the tender staff to have access to computers, the security staff that processes passengers ingress and egress from the ship certainly have that access.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Salacia

[balf]

Realistically, what's likely to happen is that passengers who are not wheelchair users but possibly elderly and a little shaky or with other problems of balance or weakness, will not declare for fear of not being able to board tenders. The same happens with those who embark hiding sickness which often brings Noro on board.

 

Cunard must hate tendering, but as the captain says, "safety of passengers and crew is our upmost priority". Not an easy task when some passengers are so determined to get ashore they will risk boarding come what may.

 

David.