Adventure Ocean nightmare on the Mariner

[Ali-in-Texas]

So sorry to hear about your experience. I'm glad we only have 2 sea days and will plan accordingly on our upcoming cruise with our children.

[It'sRC4ME]

Unless they are prescription, why buy a 10 year old $260 sunglasses? Stinks that they were broken by a bully, but I don't even trust myself with sunglasses that cost morethan $20 - why trust a 10 year old and his peers (I use the term loosely - "Jordan" sounds like a piece of work).

[Heidict]

Personally, I think you need to write a letter to RCCL. They need to be made aware of the care that the AO staff is giving and the potential danger that it presents.

 

A human bite is more dangerous then a dog bite and could have possibly led to an infection and an enormous lawsuit.

 

In regards to allowing this to be your last RCCl cruise. That is certianly your choice, but are you going to let one bad experience and one bad guest ruin it for you and your family forever? You have had quite a few wonderful experiences on RCCL and with the AO in the past. What happened on your recent cruise could have just as easily happened on another cruiseline, including Disney.

[firstcruise05]

"Jordan" definately should have been thrown out of AO. If his parents had to give up "adult" time to "babysit" him throughout the cruise maybe they would be more dilligent about taking care of his behavior.

[AmandaNS]

I believe the OP's son's glasses were prescription, but that's not the point.

 

Kids will do anything that they can get away with. As kids grow, they "push" at the limits to see where parents / authority figures will let them go. It's a natural part of growing up. That's why parenting is so hard... kids are constantly testing the waters, and being consistent is essential.

 

"Bad kids" happen when parents / authority figures are either inconsistent or too relaxed, or they're too strict and the kids act out when they're not around. Learning right from wrong takes years and years of constant teaching.

 

I firmly believe that bullies need to be dealt with, not just pacified. For something like AO where it's short-term, that would mean removing them from the program, period. Assuming the OP is being honest, it wasn't just her son who would have to put up with "Jordan's" behaviour, and other than saying "no" or giving "time outs", the staff are powerless to do anything else. Without the years of consistent teaching, no child can learn to get along in a group in a week (or however long the cruise was).

 

If I were in the OP's shoes, I can't say what I would have done. I would have been furious, though, that my son couldn't enjoy AO. I would like to think that I'd be objective about the "he said, he said" stuff. If you honestly believe that you son was not at fault for any of it, then you need to let RCI know about your experience. Even if you son contributed, you should still let them know, and be honest about what happened. It might help them to train their staff better, or make / enforce different policies.

 

This thread isn't about "babysitting" or "getting away from kids", it's about the safety of on-board programming for kids.

[ciship]

When RCCL has the responsibility of caring for other peoples children, any suspicion of any child causing problems should be removed and escorted to their parents for the duration of the cruise.

 

NUF SAID........

[nrdsb4]

I can easily believe the OP. My DH teaches 7th grade special ed. He has an entire class filled with "Jordans." I hear stories all the time about how such and such kid pulled a knife on somebody at school and the parents are in complete denial. Oh no... not MY Johnny! He's an angel! Riiiigggghhhhtt :rolleyes: In his first year teaching, DH had regular-ed 5th grade. One boy is his class was a terrible bully. He sexually assaulted a girl and was expelled. But his mom pleaded with the school board to readmit her baby boy. They did, and a couple of weeks later this boy put another girl's face through a glass window at the school. She required extensive plastic surgery. Soon after, mom was back at the school board office pleading her case again. :mad:

 

 

Please tell me that this time she did not get her son re-admitted! That's just outrageous. I used to teach junior high before I became a nurse, so I was for years an advocate of public schools. Stories like this make me cringe, though. Every child is entitled to an education, so often the schools' hands are tied, but what you are describing is certainly criminal behavior and I am stunned that a student charged with sexual assault would be allowed back into a mainstream classroom.

 

I never thought I would ever send my kids to private school, but due to the myriad of problems in our school district, that's exactly what we have ended up doing. Fortunately, most public school districts are great places to get an education. I know I certainly had a wonderful experience.

 

As far as AO is concerned, it seems to be a no brainer that attending AO is a privilege, not a RIGHT, and any child who disrupts or harms other children should lose the privilege. The rights of the majority should prevail.

[Ericknow32]

I have tried to read through all of these posts and all I can say is that I hope none of you are on my jury if I am ever accused of a crime. Come on people we have only heard one side of this story. We don't know for sure that the OP's child was perfect in this. He may have instigated the problems. We just don't know.

 

If "Jordan" was removed from the AO program, I think the OP's child should have been as well. "Jordan" supposedly had bite marks on his body, how is the AO staff to know whether they are self inflicted or not. We don't know. We only have one side of the story.

 

WE SHOULD NOT TAKE STORIES LIKE THIS AS FACT. WE DON'T HAVE ANY PROOF THAT THE (SUPPOSED) VICTIM WAS NOT AN INSTIGATOR. WE DON'T HAVE THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY. I AM SURE THAT THE OP BELIEVES WHAT SHE IS SAYING IT'S JUST THAT MOTHERS HAVE BLINDERS ON WHEN IT COMES TO THEIR OWN CHILDREN.

[mark290]

I believe you should treat the OP as fact if you want to comment.

Who knows what is the truth in any post ?

[mirthmaiden]

Please tell me that this time she did not get her son re-admitted! That's just outrageous. I used to teach junior high before I became a nurse, so I was for years an advocate of public schools. Stories like this make me cringe, though. Every child is entitled to an education, so often the schools' hands are tied, but what you are describing is certainly criminal behavior and I am stunned that a student charged with sexual assault would be allowed back into a mainstream classroom.

 

Sorry for going OT...

 

for nrdsb4: I honestly don't know if her precious baby boy was readmitted. This happened almost at the end of the school year and, thankfully, DH switched to another school the next year. That particular school district was a real mess with many similar problems.

 

As for the comments from other posters about having only one side of the story, well, yeah... that's true. We either take the OP's word for it, or we don't. Aside from the negative comments about that particular ship's AO club, I don't see what difference it makes. This same sort of situation could happen on any ship, any cruise line. Maybe it doesn't apply to everyone, but since I have children who will likely want to visit the AO club, I am interested to know about potential situations that might happen. It is helpful to know how the ship's personnel dealt with the problem. That way, if I should have a similar problem, I'll be able to react rationally having thought about it ahead of time.

[ElvisandTracey]

My DS is 9, and has been cruising on RCI for years-he has been in AO on Monarch twice, Voyager and Navigator twice-never a problem with any of them-I have personally seen staff speak to parents about the bad behavior of their kids, and tell them that if the kids didn't shape up, they would not be allowed back.

 

My son has only good things to say about the staff and the kids on each and every cruise, and I am the kind of mom who hides behind corners and watches what goes on-

 

I find this very hard to believe, due to my numerous experiences with the AO's on many ships-

 

I am not at all trying to be mean here, but as a teacher and a mom, I can tell you that in any group, there will, unfortunately always be bullies, and their will always be the kid or kids that get bullied-just a fact of life-the key is to teach your own kids not to be the bully or the bullied-

 

If this truly happened to the OP's child, I am sorry, but it sounds a bit extreme based on my many personal experiences with the AO program and its staff-the staff would never sit around and watch a child be called a f@% or get beaten on-just wouldn't happen-

[TheBeachBears]

I took the time to read the OP’s review it looked like the family had a good time with exception of the AO and the porters, I am uncertain that the OP asked a question here or wanted advice she seems to be just stating fact. As I stated in my post I would, and do, find things to do with my daughter rather than put her in AO. If she does want to go to AO and I will let her, but as soon as a problem develops I would find something else. There are just too many variables to this story/review to comment. Everyone raises there child differently, and all of you are doing it wrong, no wait that’s not what I wanted to say. I just don’t think we need to keep rehashing this.

[Brittgrrl]

Thank you to those who honestly commented, whether you agreed or not, without using the thread as another opportunity to be nasty. Comments such as the one implying that DS was the "real" bully completely leave out any explanation for all of "Jordan's" attacks on other children yet lacking any other incidents involving DS. Strange, huh?

 

Thank you for those who understood that bullies can be very one-sided, the "other side" of the story is usually the bully's parents denying their monster's behavior, or writing it off as "boys will be boys". "Jordan's" parent's initial reaction to the strikes he was receiving was exasperation-they knew he had behaviour problems.

 

I'll try and answer as best as I can remember the questions:

 

-The glasses were prescription, my "bookworm" requires them to see.

 

-"Jordan" DID NOT have "bite marks" on his body, he was witnessed pinching and twisting his own arm which resulted in two very light pea-sized marks. That is the reason my child was not given a strike, as "Jordan" was when he bit my DS, etc.

 

-As a parent, I realize that we cannot protect DS from everything. If you read the original post, I acknowledge that the problems escalated from charging/shoving to the biting in under three days. The moment the attacks reached the severity of biting, we realized the strikes or time outs weren't working for "Jordan" and immediately took action demanded a solution for this brat being allowed back in. The derogatory name calling by "Jordan" was the FIRST incident after it was supposed to have been addressed and stopped- it is not what "finally" got us to react. We reacted once it was obviously escalating. It didn't matter if it was name calling or another attack-it was simply the first incident after we were promised DS would be safe. We did not subject our own child to anything-we were told the problem was being corrected and believed what we were told. DS pleaded to go back and felt like he was being punished for the actions of a bully. To the person who thought the victim should be removed as well because of the bully's actions...you have issues. I'm guessing you're all to familiar with the "Jordans" of the world. Our choice to allow DS to return to AO was a very hard decision to make-it made me sick to my stomach because my choices were to break his heart and remove him from AO just because some monster's parents were using it as a babysitting service, or risk another attack by "Jordan". Because we were assured by AO staff that it would not happen again, we stuck our necks out and let him return. In hindsight, we could have pulled DS out of AO and just flown home at the next port, because removing AO from the cruise would have made the vacation pointless (since DS chose cruising again specifically for AO).

 

-To the snarky commenter that said checking on our child every hour was a "bother"-what a vile, miserable response! :rolleyes: Yes, it was a bit inconvenient to stop in the middle of meals, activities, etc. to run up every hour and make sure that DS was okay. It was also a bit embarassing to our 10-year-old DS to have his parents constantly popping in and interrupting the AO activities. But did you notice that once we made our presence known every hour that not another attack occurred again? I guess that didn't occur to you...:rolleyes:

 

-"Jordan's" actions were witnessed by AO-hence the "strikes" he was receiving. Not just attacks on DS, but other children as well. AO staff's hesitance to "kick out" another guest's child was the only reason he remained.

 

-Although I did not want to bother responding to one particularly nasty poster (I've seen his other posts-so I cannot take it personally) I will say that my child IS unusually docile. He's the type you would not know was in the room, and it was commented on by everyone from our Maitre d' to the AO staff on how well behaved he was. I don't take credit for his behavior, as he has always been this way and we just consider ourselves blessed. As for the snarky reference to my DS being gifted, he actually attends a local "School for the Gifted"-not a magnet school, but for the academically gifted. My calling him a bookworm was another reference to his personality. Any insinuation that DS shared blame because he was targeted by a bully just shows how low that particular poster will stoop to be nasty to others.

 

-AO is not used as a babysitting service by us. It is THE REASON we cruise on RCCL. We could have just as easily spent the week in Europe, but AO is my child's idea of a perfect vacation. They have a unique program so jam-packed full of fun and interesting things that he hates to miss a minute of it. DH and I find ourselves sitting around waiting for the next AO break so that we can have time with DS-but all DS can think about is when AO will open again!

 

-Shopping and sightseeing is DH and my idea of a relaxing time. Sorry to the poster who doesn't approve of what we find enjoyable. Because DS is only 10, our options are limited (there are age requirements on the majority of excursions) to activities he qualifies for, and then we must eliminate activities that none of us would find remotely interested in doing. That leaves...what? The beach? Sorry, but we live on one of the top 10 beaches-that would not exactly be considered a vacation. Not to mention we're not big on sitting in the sun. Instead of the unnecessary rude comments, why not enlighten me on the fantastic ideas you have to entertain a 10 year old at ports that he has seen already, without duplicating previous visits, removing things he is too young for, and things that involve sitting on a beach. Remember, shopping and sightseeing are out! I'll wait for your response.

[Brittgrrl]

Sorry I should have clarified,

 

I wrote the thread as a statement, because out of DS's 5 cruises this is the first time EVER having problems. Why do you think DS counts down the months, weeks, then days until the next cruise? Because of AO! My post was a sort of "heads up" to those going on Mariner as well, because now you know what to be prepared for-worst case scenario. Do you really think "Jordan" is an isolated incident? There are "Jordans" everywhere. This was my personal account of how the Mariner's AO staff dealt with the problem.

 

To the mother and teacher, your comment wasn't taken mean-but then you say you "doubt" this happened? Hello? So I would go on giving props to RCCL, continue to cruise our way to Diamond C&A status, rave about how much DS has loved AO since he was 4 years old, then bash them because....because...i'm sorry, why would I do that?

 

That just doesn't make any sense.

[Jazzfman]

I agree "Jordan" seems to have ruined it for you son and others and should have gotten the boot from AO...

However have you ever considered some type of self defense/karate/self esteem building training for him?

Not to say to go kicking butt all over...just to gain the confidence to stand up to bullies and be able to back it up if needed?

[Johnkut]

As a police officer, there are three sides to every story. His, his, and the truth. When our two daughters were younger, we would take them on vacations that we all could do together. I would never take them somewhere where we would put them in a childrens program all day. The purpose of a family vacation is to do things together. I don't think cruising is designed for family togetherness for vacations. To pay all that money to cruise, only to drop off your child in a day care. There are other vacations you can do with your children where you can spend the entire time with them.

[ElvisandTracey]

Again, the word "doubt" wasn't meant in a nasty way, but I have seen kids get kicked out of AO for far less than what you are speaking of, so I just can't believe that the staff would let this go-not saying I doubt what you posted, just that I doubt the staff would not take immedate action on something so serious-for legal and insurance purposes if nothing else-the last thing they want is a lawsuit after a kid is injured in their care!!!

On the Navigator during a very busy summer vacation in 2003, I saw a kid get tossed out for kicking another child during an indoor soccer game-one kick on one day (but clearly intentional none the less) and he was out. They had a strict code of conduct and physical violence of any kind was an automatic toss out-that's what I meant by my comment-I have always witnessed the staff being very safe and very strict with the kids, so I just find ths shocking, that's all-

The most ironic thing is that I was supposed to sail on Mariner on 9/11/05 with DS's (9 & 1), but had to change plans-maybe I should consider myself lucky!!!Going on FOS in June instead.

[Erie Dave]

Sounds a little like the parents that send their children to stay with Michael Jackson. First day shame on "Jordan", second day, Shame on AO, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh day, shame on you.....

[Brittgrrl]

Johnkutt,
How many times do I have to say that [I]IT IS NOT A DAYCARE?!?[/I] Obviously you are unfamiliar with AO and what the age group activities are-[B]I wish I could hang out in AO, they have more fun than the grownups!!![/B] And part two of my response to you, John, is that this IS NOT the "family" vacation-this is the "DS choice" vacation. The family vacation this year was to Louisiana where we spent 9 days of quality family time together. As far as "the other side or the truth", the attacker nor his family was ever able to come up with one (1) excuse or defence. The attacker would only throw himself down and scream that "everybody blames (him) for everything!". Although we would have loved to hear WHY the attacker felt it necessary from day one to...oh...say...charge and punch DS for tagging him in a tag game? The premeditated and devious behaviour such as pinching himself to then attempt to blame another-well, I didn't really care to hear his "side" after that act. I don't even know adults that are that diabolical (sp).

[COLOR=darkgreen][B]Jazzfman[/B][/COLOR], I too have considered such classes. DS is currently in tennis-which he loves. But I cannot stress the passiveness of DS and I don't know if any karate/boxing/etc instructor would be able to pull him out of his shyness. But I do think it's a wonderful idea. We're even trying soccer this coming season, so we'll go from there?

[COLOR=darkgreen][B]ElvisandTracy[/B][/COLOR][COLOR=black] I'll take your advice and look into Navigator if DS chooses a cruise for his holiday choice next year! I will say I wish we had the Navigator AO staff last week!!! The biting incident would never have happened![/COLOR]

[Brittgrrl]

[quote name='Erie Dave']Sounds a little like the parents that send their children to stay with Michael Jackson. First day shame on "Jordan", second day, Shame on AO, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh day, shame on you.....[/quote]

Are you sick? You're comparing us sending DS back to AO [B]twice, [/B]thinking we had resolved the problem with a 9 year old both times, to mothers sending their child to sleep in a bed with a possible pedophile?

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you [COLOR=blue][B]Erie Dave [/B][/COLOR][COLOR=black]who has reached an all time low on the cruise critics boards. Congratulations [COLOR=blue][B]Erie Dave[/B][/COLOR], you have fallen below the level of pond scum. [/COLOR]

[Travelgrrl]

From Travelgrrl to Brittgrrl:

Wow, people are being so mean to you today! (Special Ugly Demerit Badge to Erie Dave) My kids never gave a hoot for AO or any other cruise line's kids' club, but if that's important to your son, it's certainly a very valid concern if his time there is ruined. All the adults on this board who about keel over if their ship misses a port or the rock wall is closed or whatever - those are just one part of a cruise - but if your son truly loves AO, that's a huge part of his experience.

After all, he can't gamble in the casino, he can't drink, he doesn't care to shop or sit on a beach (and I'm a bookworm so I can certainly empathize); he certainly is entitled to have his fun, without a crazy kid wrecking it for him. And it's terribly irresponsible for RCI not to protect him while in the program.

I would have been pitching holy hell at the Guest Relations desk, as well as AO, and if I had seen the little rotter around the ship ("Jordan"), well, he wouldn't have had to pinch himself to make marks. ;)

Hope this didn't turn your child off of AO or RCI. But I would write to RCI and tell them your concern and how it was mishandled, and see what they say.

[getoutthere]

OK people. This is getting ridiculus! Stop with all the barbs! No wonder all the people on the Disboards think the RCL people here are rude and nasty. Whether I agree with her or not, the OP was not posting to hear you all give her the 5th degree about what she did or did not do to make the situation better. She was just posting her expierence so that others going on the Mariner might be aware of things like this happening. Which, by the way, is what this board is for the last time I checked. So get off your high horse and go put down other people on another board for a change.

Britt- I hope this dosen't disuade you from RCL because I for one am a huge fan of their line. I, however, enjoy it without my kids (OH! she did not just say that!?) Yes, I did.

[SaylorGirl]

Brittgrrl - I believe I would have responded the same way you did, to take away something that my child so enjoyed would have seemed wrong and I would have let them go back if that is what they really wanted to do. And you are right the kids adventure programs are not "like sending your kid to day care" . I hope your next vacation is "Jordon Free".

[tinmantam]

the adventure ocean staff on the mariner really do suck.

[JerseyMom]

Brittgrrl - I am very sorry that your son had to put up with this. I have seen other "Jordans" before and I do know that they (from experience) can be very manipulative with adults into getting them to believe that they were the victim in a given situation. I am sure that your son probably had trouble expressing himself with the counselors because it was probably beyond him that someone would actually pick on him and then lie about what happened. The "Jordans" of this world tend to be very glib.

I had something similar happen with my son a few years ago in nursery school with another "Jordan". Needless to say, most of the kids in the class had had an issue with "Jordan". The parents of his "victims" got together and demanded that the school do something about him. For the remainder of the year, he was required to sit next to the teacher with the caveat that any further incidents would result in his being asked to leave the school. Of course, his parents believed that the teacher was picking on their son and ended up removing him anyway.

I hope this never happens to your son again - he sounds like a nice kid. If it does, perhaps it would help if you spoke to parents of other victims and you as a group approached the AO staff if they are not handling the situation. I seriously doubt that speaking to "Jordan's" parents would have done any good at all.