Handicap accessibility - Our experience - 12/15-1/5 Viking Sun

[Elizabetho55]

One evening on our last cruise, my husband and I found it challenging as we walked back from dinner. The ship hit rough waters and literally threw us from side to side as we walked down the hall on more than a few evenings. I was able to laugh it off as I staggered down the hall, but we saw several physically challenged individuals, some on 02 making their way down the halls. It scared us to death and we both said to each other that when that time came for us we would not take those kinds of risk.

 

We too have been victims of those in scooters. Unfortunately they are dangerous when attempting to operate them on a ship that is being tossed about by rough seas. I am certainly not opposed to those with physical challenges enjoying life to the fullest...three of my children lived their lives in wheelchairs and they experienced wonderful things during their lifetime, BUT we did not do things that could cause them further injuries or cause others to be hurt.

 

So I'm on both sides of this conversation...but my concern is safety, both yours and mine.

 

 

 

Well said. I too see both sides of this. I have a sister-in-law who is confined to a wheel chair and she went everywhere possible with the family. She is both physically and mentally challenged. We knew what her limits were though and never considered taking her somewhere that she might be harmed or unable to function to her capabilities. People need to be aware of the reality of their limitations and realize that there are things they cannot do. I also hope that if the day arrives that I have limitations that I will acknowledge and adjust accordingly to live life to the fullest point of my capabilities.

 

 

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[Eaches]

My wife and I were witness to this situation on a cruise which happened to my sister, who was in our party. All three of us, in single file, on deck five were approaching the aft elevators when suddenly a large man, driving a scooter SOO fast around the elevator area that he lost control and almost turned it over (and would have) if my sis hadn't been there to break his fall !:eek: He GLARED at my sister, and SCREAMED, 'Leave me the HELL alone !!' I know all of this because I was behind her and was shocked at his rudeness. She, also was perplexed and just said too me after he sped off. 'I was just trying to help and make sure he didn't hurt himself'. Guess he didn't see it THAT way. Wonder, WHAT he'd done if my sis had just simply stood aside or kept walking, letting him turn over, with scooter on top.:rolleyes:

 

 

 

Mac

 

 

 

You should have let him go on his merry way - he held the speed button and determined his speed and his outcome . Glad it didn’t involve your sister.

 

 

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[Syd58]

On 5/29/2018 at 8:00 PM, sweetieweetie said:

Eaches,

 

God bless you! I am only in my 50s but I have Multiple Sclerosis and am in a wheelchair the majority of the time. Why I don’t want to slow anyone down, some of these comments seem like I should stay home, not live a life, and prepare for death. I just wanted to thank you for your comments. I wouldn’t wish this disease on anyone but I’m still alive! Again, God bless you.

I agree. Some of these comments are very harsh. They’ll likely think differently when they need assistance walking.  The lack of grace by some constantly amazes me…

[Syd58]

On 6/2/2018 at 3:00 PM, Homosassa said:

 

This.

 

When we were researching Viking Ocean, I also came across information on the website (don't ask me where) that also stated that the number of handicap accessible cabins on Viking is deliberately limited because of the fact that one must be mobile to enjoy the various excursions. There was also a statement, that due to the steepness of the gangway in some ports or stairs on the gangway in some ports, passengers must be able to debark and embark the ship by themselves without use of mobility assisting devices (wheelchairs, scooters, walkers).

 

My impression from my research was so strong that Viking was targeting physically fit passengers, that my sister and I debated if we should book a Viking cruise because we both, on occasion, have an issue with a knee that is compromised due to very old knee injuries.

 

Yes, we booked, but both plan to pack a collapsible cane just in case we have one of those knee days.

It should be pointed out that not everyone with a disability/limited mobility wants to go on every excursion or possibly any excursions at all.  My spouse is perfectly fine staying on the ship..

[Syd58]

On 6/2/2018 at 10:29 AM, Elizabetho55 said:

This a difficult subject and my intention here isn’t to offend anyone - only to state some facts. I think that Americans are so accustomed to the ADA laws in our country that they don’t realize that Europe doesn’t have the same requirements. While Viking does target the over 55 demographic I believe they are pretty clear that the cruises are geared towards physically able adults. While they do try to accommodate people who have challenges I don’t believe they are targeting that population. Please read their policy online under FAQs “Can you accommodated Disabled Passengers”. It states: “Viking Cruises welcomes disabled guests but wishes all guests to understand that challenges will exist on board and during shore excursions. Our ocean vessels have elevators, but there may still be thresholds that could make movement difficult. Shore excursions may require movement over cobblestones or up and down stairs”. So while everyone is free to choose Viking they should understand that they may be limited with what they are able to do.

 

 

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This is why we have eliminated Viking Ocean from consideration from future cruises.  We have no interest in cruising on a liner that doesn’t strictly adhere to ADA type regulations. 

[WAVTAM]

On 1/25/2018 at 5:16 AM, deec said:

Trying to be kind and sweet with this post. I am thankful for our continued health and we are traveling now while knees, hips, and joints work well. But when we can’t travel independently we will hopefully be gracious enough to stop. There are 3 or 4 scooters on our WC. They have not seemed to be much of a problem on board....but 20 or 30 would pose a terrible traffic jam. If you need a scooter find a cruise line that welcomes them. We have been impacted by significantly handicapped individuals during excursions. Viking should be able to deny these individuals access to some excursions. They are Not safe and the detract from our experiences. I sure hope Viking can figure this out. If my excursion to Petra is shortchanged because we are waiting to load wheelchairs and Wobblies who will have difficulty with the heat and long walks, I will be unhappy.

As a retired ambulation physician, I support these comments. We recently on WC did a 5 hour tour with 3 scooters and 2 walkers on the bus. The individual's where so compromise at the tour stop, they all tried and eventual retained to bus. The 5 hour tour resulted in one individual peeing his pants on the bus. Viking does NEED to have a handicap bus for all these individuals.

[Syd58]

8 hours ago, WAVTAM said:

As a retired ambulation physician, I support these comments. We recently on WC did a 5 hour tour with 3 scooters and 2 walkers on the bus. The individual's where so compromise at the tour stop, they all tried and eventual retained to bus. The 5 hour tour resulted in one individual peeing his pants on the bus. Viking does NEED to have a handicap bus for all these individuals.

Most cruise lines, including Seabourn, Silversea, and Oceania, specify which shore excursions are accessible and appropriate for people with handicaps. I'm surprised Viking does not...

[CurlerRob]

10 hours ago, Syd58 said:

Most cruise lines, including Seabourn, Silversea, and Oceania, specify which shore excursions are accessible and appropriate for people with handicaps. I'm surprised Viking does not...

Why would you think they don’t? Like every other cruise line, Viking provides a description of each excursion, including a difficulty rating. The ratings are defined in detail in their ShoreEx documents. 
 

Unfortunately, there are always some who won’t read or choose to ignore the information - to everyone’s detriment. 🍺🥌

[SantaFe1]

I just want to chime in here, because, as I get older, I do read the descriptions and ratings religiously.  So on our cruise to Hawaii, last month, I stayed away from a demanding rainforest hike in Maui that my husband did, for 7 hours.  Yes, good.  But I did a demanding 4 hour hike in Honolulu that was fine.  Last year in the Med we did cooking in an Italian Castle that was rated easy.  It was one of the most taxing excursions I have done.  An hour up and down stone staircases in the castle, the standing for two hours in the kitchen with no place to sit.  Pompeii and Herculaneum in Naples were marked demanding, but for me weren’t.  It’s just really hard to tell what you get.  I sometimes google the same shore ex and find that Princess has much better, hour by hour descriptions than Viking does.  But honestly, it just depends on what tires you, I guess.  I am fine walking, but standing and stairs are not great.  I don’t think I have held anyone up yet.  But I would hate to be the one who does that.  

Edited April 30 by SantaFe1

[WAVTAM]

12 hours ago, Syd58 said:

Most cruise lines, including Seabourn, Silversea, and Oceania, specify which shore excursions are accessible and appropriate for people with handicaps. I'm surprised Viking does not...

Exactly my point. Trying to get VIKING to recognize this issue and address it with excursions for the handicap. I have even written then directly at tellus,with no response.

[Breckski]

11 minutes ago, WAVTAM said:

Exactly my point. Trying to get VIKING to recognize this issue and address it with excursions for the handicap. I have even written then directly at tellus,with no response.

I imagine Viking completely understands and has responded with their actions and policies.  It's for the consumer to decide if the line best matches their needs and desires.

 

 

[Syd58]

16 hours ago, Breckski said:

I imagine Viking completely understands and has responded with their actions and policies.  It's for the consumer to decide if the line best matches their needs and desires.

 

 

I think there's little doubt that Viking understands its actions and policies.  Providing accessible tours and/or accessible regular veranda cabins (at a level below penthouse junior suites) does not appear to be a significant priority. The real question is why, especially given their target market, which consists primarily of senior adults.  

Edited April 30 by Syd58

[wine-wine-wine]

6 minutes ago, Syd58 said:

I think there's little doubt that Viking understands its actions and policies.  Providing accessible tours and/or accessible regular veranda cabins (at a level below penthouse junior suites) does not appear to be a significant priority. The real question is why, especially given their target market, which consists primarily of senior adults.  

I’m guessing there is a legal/financial risk at play here. 

[OneSixtyToOne]

Just now, wine-wine-wine said:

I’m guessing there is a legal/financial risk at play here. 

 

It’s highly likely it is a cost and liability issue. 

A CEO once told me “There is some business that you walk away from.”

[Syd58]

16 hours ago, WAVTAM said:

Exactly my point. Trying to get VIKING to recognize this issue and address it with excursions for the handicap. I have even written then directly at tellus,with no response.

I did get a response (see below) from Viking when I inquired about my wife's scooter.  Before booking, I had sent Viking very specific details about her scooter (including weight and dimensions).  It is a newer-type folding scooter which is not much wider than some people. I was trying to get an answer before I made the deposit.  The response I got (below) was not satisfactory (IMO).  It seemed to make light of losing the administrative fee, indicating we could possibly lose it.  Not sure what would have happened to our deposit, but I assume it may have been at risk as well.

 

 

 "Thank you for contacting Viking. 

 

 It would be determined on a case by case basis. I would let the agent booking your trip know about the   scooter so that we can process the request as quickly as possible to minimize the risk of losing these  fees.  These fees are usually only a non refundable amount of $100.00 per person." 

Edited April 30 by Syd58

[Syd58]

8 minutes ago, wine-wine-wine said:

I’m guessing there is a legal/financial risk at play here. 

I doubt this is the case as other luxury lines such as Silversea, Seabourn, and Oceania seem to effectively handle this issue.

[Breckski]

1 hour ago, Syd58 said:

I doubt this is the case as other luxury lines such as Silversea, Seabourn, and Oceania seem to effectively handle this issue.

As I said earlier, Viking understands what is going on with respect customers with mobility issues.  They made these decisions knowing the ramifications.  Viking's business decisions do not have to mirror other lines. 

 

2 hours ago, Syd58 said:

The real question is why, especially given their target market, which consists primarily of senior adults.  

And I think our image of Viking's target market differ.  I think Viking's target market is more active than I think you believe from your post.  Obviously "seniors" can be active.  And I feel these active folks are the customers Viking is after.  

 

It's up to each individual to determine if Viking works best for them, considering operations and business policies.

[Syd58]

1 hour ago, Breckski said:

As I said earlier, Viking understands what is going on with respect customers with mobility issues.  They made these decisions knowing the ramifications.  Viking's business decisions do not have to mirror other lines. 

 

And I think our image of Viking's target market differ.  I think Viking's target market is more active than I think you believe from your post.  Obviously "seniors" can be active.  And I feel these active folks are the customers Viking is after.  

 

It's up to each individual to determine if Viking works best for them, considering operations and business policies.

The term 'active' has much variation. Relatively speaking, Viking's target market is older people.  The reality is as people age, most are not as 'active' or physically fit as they once were (although some will deny this). Having been on many cruise excursions, I have personally witnessed the variation in peoples' mobility. Some walk faster than others, some slower; some walk with a cane, some do not; some require the aid of a mobility scooter, many do not, etc.  No one is questioning Viking's mission and strategic plan. It is pretty clear. The issue here is why would any business, including Viking, put handicapped persons, at a disadvantage (in Viking's case, requiring people who need an accessible cabin to book a penthouse junior suite (at a higher cost) on some ships as opposed to being able to book an accessible veranda cabin; not offering fully accessible excursions on some cruises; and in my personal example cited in an earlier post, advising them to place a deposit before a decision can be made as to whether a scooter is acceptable (some of which may not be refundable).  

Edited Tuesday at 10:11 PM by Syd58

[OneSixtyToOne]

6 minutes ago, Syd58 said:

The issue here is why would any business, including Viking, put handicapped persons, at a disadvantage

Because they can.

[Syd58]

21 minutes ago, OneSixtyToOne said:

Because they can.

Wow.  I guess in your way of thinking, any business can treat any disadvantaged/unfortunate/minority group however they want.. I do not see this as good practice for any business.

Edited Tuesday at 10:27 PM by Syd58

[OneSixtyToOne]

1 hour ago, Syd58 said:

Wow.  I guess in your way of thinking, any business can treat any disadvantaged/unfortunate/minority group however they want.. I do not see this as good practice for any business.

No, but every business attempts to control costs. Don’t conflate a financial decision with blatant discrimination.

 

And since you brought up “my way of thinking” I feel compelled to reply.

 

One of my closest friends, who is now deceased, was in a wheelchair since he was a child. I’ve seen through his experiences what it was like before the ADA was passed and what it has been like after passage.
 

Before the ADA, he moved to a city that was very progressive with respect to assisted living. A support structure was created to help people who had special needs. It became a magnet for the disabled and guess what? Businesses responded by installing ramps, modified rest rooms, etc. Why? Because it made business sense. It was not because of altruism. There was now a customer base to justify infrastructure modifications. They needed no law to tell them to do this.

 

With the passage of the ADA (which I enthusiastically supported) businesses had no choice but to comply with the law. Building codes around the country were changed to accommodate the law. If not for the ADA businesses and organizations had little incentive to change anything.

Personally, I’ve been involved in budget discussions concerning making a venue ADA compliant. I’d heard board members complain about ADA costs and requirements and many wished it never happened and wanted it repealed. When you hear people taking about “over regulation,” the ADA is one of the things in their sights. Believe me when I say if it wasn’t a statutory requirement you’ve be living in the 1950s right now.

 

As far as cruise lines are concerned, my friend went on to become a travel agent later in life. He traveled internationally several times. He required a special wheelchair and special batteries to fly on a plane.
 

One time in Japan he visited a temple and there was a commotion when he entered. A team of women rushed out and started scrubbing down his tires before they allowed him to enter. 
 

He never took a cruise. He said if there was an emergency onboard, he would fear for his life. He often quoted Dirty Harry, “You got to know your limitations.”

Edited Tuesday at 11:45 PM by OneSixtyToOne

[Syd58]

4 minutes ago, OneSixtyToOne said:

No, but every business attempts to control costs. Don’t conflate a financial decision with blatant discrimination.

 

And since you brought up “my way of thinking” I feel compelled to reply.

 

One of my closest friends, who is now deceased, was in a wheelchair since he was a child. I’ve seen through his experiences what it was like before the ADA was passed and what it has been like after passage.
 

Before the ADA, he moved to a city that was very progressive with respect to assisted living. A support structure was created to help people who had special needs. It became a magnet for the disabled and guess what? Businesses responded by installing ramps, modified rest rooms, etc. Why? Because it made business sense. It was not because of altruism. There was now a customer base to justify infrastructure modifications. They needed no law to tell them to do this.

 

With the passage of the ADA (which I enthusiastically supported) businesses had no choice but to comply with the law. Building codes around the country were changed to accommodate the law. If not for the ADA businesses and organizations had little incentive to change anything.

Personally, I’ve been involved in budget discussions concerning making a venue ADA compliant. I’d heard board members complain about ADA costs and requirements and many wished it never happened and wanted it repealed. When you hear people taking about “over regulation,” the ADA is one of the things in their sights. Believe me when I say if it wasn’t a statutory requirement you’ve be living in the 1950s right now.

 

As far as cruise lines are concerned, my friend went on to become a travel agent later in life. He traveled internationally several times. He required a special wheelchair and special batteries to fly on a plane.
 

One time in Japan he visited a temple and there was a commotion when he entered. A team of women rushed out and started scrubbing down his tires before they allowed him to enter. 
 

He never took a cruise. He said if there was an emergency onboard, he would fear for his life. He often quote Dirty Harry, “You got to know your limitations.”

Thanks for your very thoughtful reply. Viking is headquartered in Switzerland. My understanding is that Switzerland has comparable ADA regulations.  Wouldn't Viking be subject to such regulations?

[ChrisB123]

I was on "another," thread, that had this same topic. Some of the comments here floor me, but not as much as the one I saw a couple of months back.  The poster was talking about how unfair it is that her scoter didn't work well at Pompeii causing her to not be able to complete the excursion. She was really angry that Europe didn't do something about their streets and someone should pave the rocks over with concrete!  My point is, there are many ways to travel and going to a country that is not ADA certified is not the best choice. Fair? No. Reality? Yes. 

[OneSixtyToOne]

20 minutes ago, Syd58 said:

Thanks for your very thoughtful reply. Viking is headquartered in Switzerland. My understanding is that Switzerland has comparable ADA regulations.  Wouldn't Viking be subject to such regulations?

Their ships are Norwegian flagged so that is probably what applies. I’m also sure they are fully compliant to whatever the legal requirements are although it might not be up to your wishes. They do provide ADA accommodations, probably in the same way as a store has two disabled parking spaces. There is some formula and they comply. I’m sure there is no requirement for them to provide accommodation in their lowest priced cabin class.

EDIT:

I came across this on a legal website. It’s a catch all:

“Foreign ships must also follow international maritime laws and guidelines. If a foreign ship’s obedience to the ADA would violate some other obligation or threaten ship safety, it is permitted to violate ADA requirements.”

Edited Wednesday at 12:09 AM by OneSixtyToOne

[Squawkman]

Syd68 - maybe you should consider a Viking Mississippi cruise. 10 out of 194 cabins are ADA compliant and the cost is the same as the cheapest cabin even though they are larger. Plus, no foreign accessibility issues as all ports are in the USA.