gender vs sex on paperwork

[summercruisin']

Hi all, I am trying to add my child as my 2nd guest for an upcoming cruise. Kiddo was assigned female at birth, but is transgender. We have legally changed his name, but we have not been able to change his gender marker in time for this cruise. The page for adding him on is asking for gender (not sex) as well as a title (to be fair, there are some fun ones listed that I may choose). Anyway, we are flying in (to Florida, no less, which is pretty terrifying as well) with a driver's permit that has a masculine name but lists Female as sex. Am I forced to put "female" under "gender" while adding my kid on my cruise ticket? Or does it matter? And, can the title NOT match the "gender"? Like, if I decide to put "female" since that is what is on the ID, but choose "Mr." as the title, would that work?

 

I've called the cruise but the person I have talked to does not seem to understand what I am asking. She has literally put me on hold and come back 3 times now (still on the phone) to tell me the name has to match the birth certificate. And I keep telling her I am not asking about the name. I am asking about the gender marker and the title. 

 

Has anyone had this issue, by chance, and can advise?

[TheOldBear]

I think the information for the passenger manifest needs to match what is on the permit [government issued id].

I've only traveled with a passport - but it is possible that there may be a need for the 'bridging' documentation between the birth certificate name and the government ID name. [any paperwork needed or received for a legal name change]

The same documentation would likely be needed later [once the BC is updated] to obtain a passport with the proper information.

Is the driving permit marked as a 'real id' document? If so, it is possible no one will bother looking at the BC

[summercruisin']

Thanks, bear. The kid does have  "real ID" for the permit, but everything (including that ID) has "female" right now - listed as "sex" NOT "gender" which is what the cruise line requested. So, we are tolerating putting "female" for that, in order to cruise. And it looks like the system won't let us change the title to "Mr." with "female" in place, so that is what we went with.

[Brgoescruising]

Is it carnival?  My partner hasn't legally changed his name or marker yet 🙄...it's been almost 5 years..... but when we're on carnival and using his passport, we just use everything to match the documentation, and then right after we board we go to guest services and request a new card with his name instead of dead name.  They issue the card, we usually have a lighthearted chat with the room steward who still has dead name on their room roster and then problem solved.  Just make sure you carry your dead name sign and sail card and passport when you leave the ship at ports.  I know that isn't a perfect answer since it sounds like you have mismatched doc at the moment but hopefully it's slightly helpful.

 

As far as title goes, I like to have fun with that since they only use it on the sign and sail card, last year for his post top surgery trip I made him a Dr.  This time with all the legislation I made him an "honorable" so we could feel like we're in charge, not the dumb judges out there.  

[iuki]

Can anyone offer experiences, suggestions, and possible issues and what we are required to do? Our daughter and great grandson would like to join us on our cruise to Italy, Greece, and Turkey next year.  Our great grandson will be 3 months shy of 18.  I want him to have a great cruise because he is very special to me.

 

Thanks for any help.

 

Judy

 

[Brgoescruising]

Appreciate you seeking out advice, that's so sweet of you has a great grandparent.....anyways, are you looking for advice about the ship processes or something else?

 

The key info for someone to be able to offer advice is which cruise line, departure/arrival ports, and home country. The other key info is whether documents match presentation. I assume Greece and Italy won't be much issue, but personally I'd be extra cautious in turkey(perhaps stick to cruise sponsored excursions?) But I can't speak to any of those countries in too much detail as Ive only briefly been to Italy before.

[iuki]

6 hours ago, Brgoescruising said:

Appreciate you seeking out advice, that's so sweet of you has a great grandparent.....anyways, are you looking for advice about the ship processes or something else?

 

The key info for someone to be able to offer advice is which cruise line, departure/arrival ports, and home country. The other key info is whether documents match presentation. I assume Greece and Italy won't be much issue, but personally I'd be extra cautious in turkey(perhaps stick to cruise sponsored excursions?) But I can't speak to any of those countries in too much detail as Ive only briefly been to Italy before.

Thank you for your response.  We’re booked on Odyssey OTS sailing

Oct 22, 2024, from  Rome and going to Naples, Santorini, Mykonos, Rhodes, Athens, Ephesus (Kusadasi) Turkey, Cypress, and Chania, Crete.

 

My daughter has his birth certificate and getting her grandson’s passport.  She will be using his real name assigned gender at birth.  We always book excursions through Royal Caribbean.  He will only be using the restroom in his stateroom.

 

I guess my question would be if he wanted to join the other teenagers, does he have to sign-in with his birth name or his “nickname” that he goes by?  Do you have any advice?  Do you recommend he avoid the teenage functions?

 

I really appreciate your helping me with this. 

[Brgoescruising]

Cool cool, 

 

So maybe someone that sails royal can chime in, but *on carnival* they'll give you a second card with preferred name, and then you just have to bring the original with you when getting on/off the ship...not sure if royal does that though.

 

As far as teens go, no clue, my partner and I are both in our late 20s/early 30s but I can definitely attest that the kids these days are, pardon the pun, a boat load more accepting than when I was that age. 

[CDNPolar]

4 hours ago, Brgoescruising said:

 

 

As far as teens go, no clue, my partner and I are both in our late 20s/early 30s but I can definitely attest that the kids these days are, pardon the pun, a boat load more accepting than when I was that age. 

 

Agree - most kids today look at you strangely if you question gender or pronouns... like what is the issue?  

[CDNPolar]

9 hours ago, iuki said:

 

I guess my question would be if he wanted to join the other teenagers, does he have to sign-in with his birth name or his “nickname” that he goes by?  Do you have any advice?  Do you recommend he avoid the teenage functions?

 

I really appreciate your helping me with this. 

 

I don't know this sign-in thing, but why would you not just sign in with your nickname?

 

For instance if your legal name was Jonathan and you signed as Jon, would there be a fuss?  If your name was Richard and you signed in as Dick, or your name was William and you singed in as Bill?

 

I would not want him to miss the teenage functions - that would be a shame.  That group may be the most welcoming and non-caring.... so to speak.

[At7Seas]

Thank you for caring!
 
You will need to use official name and marker for travelling, there is no way around the details as certified in a passport. Cruise lines have to communicate them to the authorities of countries visited. Only the US authorities may change them and the passports certify world-wide who you are and who your great grandson is. Please inform exactly about the documentation needed for a minor travelling without parents for all countries visited.
 
I don’t need to tell you that you will find haters everywhere, that won’t be different while travelling to Europe. Italian people are for the largest part very laid back, while the government tries to turn back the clock. Greece has a more traditional population, especially the elderly are heavily under the influence of the orthodox church, but Greece offers much better legal protection than Italy does and made on this field a lot of progress the last years. Cyprus is following the path of Greece in a social cultural a highly comparable environment, they are just a bit behind. I wouldn’t be afraid about these countries, not everything is great, but it isn’t scaring either.
 
Turkey is different in a very bad way. Latest ILA report does not make Turkey look as favourable destination. Something innocent as rainbow colours are nowadays already enough for police harassment - no exceptions for minors. And we still don’t know where recent government calls to equalise LGBT+ persons with terrorists will lead to. You should know that for example calling for peacefully granting autonomy rights of an ethnic minority in Turkey, which we would regard as fully protect free speech, can lead in Turkey to a long imprisonment as being a terrorist, also foreigners are convicted for this. If you really want to enter Turkey together with your great grandson you should completely blend into a large group and let him not contradict expectations his passport implies. I as cis gay man decided for myself not to visit Turkey any more. Still for spring 2020 I was booked on a cruise calling Kusadasi (I love Ephesos) despite a bad feeling, but as things are today I wouldn’t do that any more. Turkey is one of the few states that might turn against me for what I am, not for what I do.

 

[iuki]

14 hours ago, CDNPolar said:

 

I don't know this sign-in thing, but why would you not just sign in with your nickname?

 

For instance if your legal name was Jonathan and you signed as Jon, would there be a fuss?  If your name was Richard and you signed in as Dick, or your name was William and you singed in as Bill?

 

I would not want him to miss the teenage functions - that would be a shame.  That group may be the most welcoming and non-caring.... so to speak.

That’s what I thought, but I wasn’t sure.  Does the Seapass Card show their legal name or nickname?  Do you know?

[iuki]

15 hours ago, At7Seas said:

Thank you for caring!
 
You will need to use official name and marker for travelling, there is no way around the details as certified in a passport. Cruise lines have to communicate them to the authorities of countries visited. Only the US authorities may change them and the passports certify world-wide who you are and who your great grandson is. Please inform exactly about the documentation needed for a minor travelling without parents for all countries visited.
 
I don’t need to tell you that you will find haters everywhere, that won’t be different while travelling to Europe. Italian people are for the largest part very laid back, while the government tries to turn back the clock. Greece has a more traditional population, especially the elderly are heavily under the influence of the orthodox church, but Greece offers much better legal protection than Italy does and made on this field a lot of progress the last years. Cyprus is following the path of Greece in a social cultural a highly comparable environment, they are just a bit behind. I wouldn’t be afraid about these countries, not everything is great, but it isn’t scaring either.
 
Turkey is different in a very bad way. Latest ILA report does not make Turkey look as favourable destination. Something innocent as rainbow colours are nowadays already enough for police harassment - no exceptions for minors. And we still don’t know where recent government calls to equalise LGBT+ persons with terrorists will lead to. You should know that for example calling for peacefully granting autonomy rights of an ethnic minority in Turkey, which we would regard as fully protect free speech, can lead in Turkey to a long imprisonment as being a terrorist, also foreigners are convicted for this. If you really want to enter Turkey together with your great grandson you should completely blend into a large group and let him not contradict expectations his passport implies. I as cis gay man decided for myself not to visit Turkey any more. Still for spring 2020 I was booked on a cruise calling Kusadasi (I love Ephesos) despite a bad feeling, but as things are today I wouldn’t do that any more. Turkey is one of the few states that might turn against me for what I am, not for what I do.

 

Thank you.  That was very helpful.  I did a screenshot of your valuable and much appreciated response and sent it to my daughter and great-grandson.  
 

Wishing you safe and happy holidays.

[summercruisin']

Just to follow up/update, in case this helps anyone...

For the 2023 cruise, we kept the gender as "female" since that matched all the documents (passport, original birth certificate, driving permit), so everything had "Miss" on it, unfortunately. We had a little trouble at boarding because of the name change and the lack of experience on the part of those at port, but it worked out after a few extra steps. Once onboard, we told the room steward that the kid didn't want to be called "Miss" anything, and it was never mentioned again 🙂

 

Now, we are preparing to cruise again but with Princess and  in Europe. When I booked it, we did not have an updated passport, but now the passport had been updated to show the correct gender (as is allowed). Driver's license shows sex assigned at birth, as required in our state at this time.

 

Once the passport was updated, it took about 8 calls over about 3 weeks' time to get Princess to change the title and gender marker, but when I finally got to the right person, it was done. Along the way, I was told several times that it really didn't matter, as long as the legal name and birth date matched. I couldn't seem to make the representatives understand that it DOES matter to my kid, who has a legal masculine name and doesn't want to be called "Miss." Plus, since the passport has the correct gender marker and we are travelling to Europe, I am hoping having it corrected on Princess's part, so that it matches the passport, will help make boarding a little easier this time, but I'm not gonna lie...as a parent, I am a little worried about the whole thing.

 

So what I've learned...for now, lots of people, including those in travel, still just don't really understand, and that is fine as long as everyone is respectful (and everyone so far has been, even when clearly confused 😄), although I do wish people weren't so fixated on feeling as if they have to know one's genitals in order to decide how to act around them. Hopefully one day there will be more training and more accepting options regarding this particular issue. For now, it looks like you can probably pick whichever gender marker and title you want during booking, and unless there is some reason for concern (maybe travel to certain places?), it won't matter.

 

Safe travels, everyone!

[summercruisin']

On 12/10/2023 at 6:29 AM, At7Seas said:

Thank you for caring!
 
You will need to use official name and marker for travelling, there is no way around the details as certified in a passport. Cruise lines have to communicate them to the authorities of countries visited. Only the US authorities may change them and the passports certify world-wide who you are and who your great grandson is. Please inform exactly about the documentation needed for a minor travelling without parents for all countries visited.
 
I don’t need to tell you that you will find haters everywhere, that won’t be different while travelling to Europe. Italian people are for the largest part very laid back, while the government tries to turn back the clock. Greece has a more traditional population, especially the elderly are heavily under the influence of the orthodox church, but Greece offers much better legal protection than Italy does and made on this field a lot of progress the last years. Cyprus is following the path of Greece in a social cultural a highly comparable environment, they are just a bit behind. I wouldn’t be afraid about these countries, not everything is great, but it isn’t scaring either.
 
Turkey is different in a very bad way. Latest ILA report does not make Turkey look as favourable destination. Something innocent as rainbow colours are nowadays already enough for police harassment - no exceptions for minors. And we still don’t know where recent government calls to equalise LGBT+ persons with terrorists will lead to. You should know that for example calling for peacefully granting autonomy rights of an ethnic minority in Turkey, which we would regard as fully protect free speech, can lead in Turkey to a long imprisonment as being a terrorist, also foreigners are convicted for this. If you really want to enter Turkey together with your great grandson you should completely blend into a large group and let him not contradict expectations his passport implies. I as cis gay man decided for myself not to visit Turkey any more. Still for spring 2020 I was booked on a cruise calling Kusadasi (I love Ephesos) despite a bad feeling, but as things are today I wouldn’t do that any more. Turkey is one of the few states that might turn against me for what I am, not for what I do.

 

Although it has been a while since I checked back, I am thankful for you sharing this information for the grandma, since we can benefit as we prepare to go to Europe. We are not going to Turkey, partly because I was concerned about this, so this reinforces my decision to skip it. I am sorry you are having to miss out as well, but I wish you safe travels!

[summercruisin']

On 12/9/2023 at 2:09 PM, iuki said:

Can anyone offer experiences, suggestions, and possible issues and what we are required to do? Our daughter and great grandson would like to join us on our cruise to Italy, Greece, and Turkey next year.  Our great grandson will be 3 months shy of 18.  I want him to have a great cruise because he is very special to me.

 

Thanks for any help.

 

Judy

 

Hi Judy! I (OP) am just now seeing these responses, but I am so glad you reached out to get some suggestions for your upcoming trip! 

 

I saw on later posts you specifically mentioned signing in and out of the teen clubs. My kiddo said when he went to the teen areas, he did not have to sign in or out at all, and that that was the policy for the older teens on Carnival. My kid was 16 at the time. So, hopefully your great grandson won't have to worry about what name/nickname to put. 

[CDNPolar]

12 hours ago, summercruisin' said:

Just to follow up/update, in case this helps anyone...

For the 2023 cruise, we kept the gender as "female" since that matched all the documents (passport, original birth certificate, driving permit), so everything had "Miss" on it, unfortunately. We had a little trouble at boarding because of the name change and the lack of experience on the part of those at port, but it worked out after a few extra steps. Once onboard, we told the room steward that the kid didn't want to be called "Miss" anything, and it was never mentioned again 🙂

 

Now, we are preparing to cruise again but with Princess and  in Europe. When I booked it, we did not have an updated passport, but now the passport had been updated to show the correct gender (as is allowed). Driver's license shows sex assigned at birth, as required in our state at this time.

 

Once the passport was updated, it took about 8 calls over about 3 weeks' time to get Princess to change the title and gender marker, but when I finally got to the right person, it was done. Along the way, I was told several times that it really didn't matter, as long as the legal name and birth date matched. I couldn't seem to make the representatives understand that it DOES matter to my kid, who has a legal masculine name and doesn't want to be called "Miss." Plus, since the passport has the correct gender marker and we are travelling to Europe, I am hoping having it corrected on Princess's part, so that it matches the passport, will help make boarding a little easier this time, but I'm not gonna lie...as a parent, I am a little worried about the whole thing.

 

So what I've learned...for now, lots of people, including those in travel, still just don't really understand, and that is fine as long as everyone is respectful (and everyone so far has been, even when clearly confused 😄), although I do wish people weren't so fixated on feeling as if they have to know one's genitals in order to decide how to act around them. Hopefully one day there will be more training and more accepting options regarding this particular issue. For now, it looks like you can probably pick whichever gender marker and title you want during booking, and unless there is some reason for concern (maybe travel to certain places?), it won't matter.

 

Safe travels, everyone!

 

Good luck on your European Cruise and I am anticipating that the Drivers License will not come into play with any customs or immigration officer, so you should sail smoothly through all of this since the passport has the gender identifier that you want it to have.

 

In all my extensive travelling on land and sea, I have never been asked for additional identification, beyond the passport.

 

I hope this goes smoothly for you and please report back!

 

Travel safe and have fun.

[iuki]

On 1/31/2024 at 12:09 PM, summercruisin' said:

Hi Judy! I (OP) am just now seeing these responses, but I am so glad you reached out to get some suggestions for your upcoming trip! 

 

I saw on later posts you specifically mentioned signing in and out of the teen clubs. My kiddo said when he went to the teen areas, he did not have to sign in or out at all, and that that was the policy for the older teens on Carnival. My kid was 16 at the time. So, hopefully your great grandson won't have to worry about what name/nickname to put. 

Good to know.  Thank you.