Fire on the Star Princess

[CarpeCerevisi]

I was looking through some ship files of construction, and It comes to my attention that a lot of the balconies may have been actually alluminum due to much less weight. (This has been done before in many ships)

 

Alluminum melts a lot quicker than does steel/heavy metals. ALSO, look at the main ship body, it is still attached - it looks as if it were a different type of material attached.

 

Given that. Alluminum melts at a much lower temperature than steel. If this is the fact, the fire could have started higher, and the alluminum peices on fire "Dripped down" (as it was melting) on to lower balconies, causing them to burn also??

 

Actually, given the right conditions and temperatures, aluminum burns. The Royal Navy learned that lesson in the Falklands war. One of their destroyers was hit by an Exocet missile, the warhead didn't explode but the ship's aluminum superstructure caught fire from the heat of the rocket engine resulting in the loss of the ship. If the Star Princess' aluminum structures caught fire it might explain the extent of the exterior damage and why it took so long to put out the blaze. Of course, at this point, this is all still speculation.

[c_galle]

Carnival runs a business and businesses hate to lose money, and they will want that ship back in service as fast as possible. But even Carnival can't tell the NTSB and USCG how to do their jobs, and their jobs will take time. Rosie the Riveter is going to be waiting before she is allowed to start the repairs. Wait and see.

 

(and have you ever experienced a fire? the smoke damage alone takes forever to clean up, and that damage/smell goes way beyond the 150 affected cabins.)

 

Have I ever experienced a fire? Yes, Ever fought a fire onboard a ship, yes? The longest cruise I have under my belt was four years in length. Other cruises too. Chief Petty Officer, US Navy. I now work at USNORTHCOM in the Joint Operations Center. Familiar with the NTSB and USCG. Carnival doesn't tell them what to do. They will inspect the ship and make suggestions. But you know what? Wherever the ship is flagged will be the lead agency.

[c_galle]

Actually, given the right conditions and temperatures, aluminum burns. The Royal Navy learned that lesson in the Falklands war. One of their destroyers was hit by an Exocet missile, the warhead didn't explode but the ship's aluminum superstructure caught fire from the heat of the rocket engine resulting in the loss of the ship. If the Star Princess' aluminum structures caught fire it might explain the extent of the exterior damage and why it took so long to put out the blaze. Of course, at this point, this is all still speculation.

 

True, but Aluminum does melt at approx 1220 degrees or so. Lower than the temp for steel, about 2600 degrees or so.

[JLC@SD]

Actually, given the right conditions and temperatures, aluminum burns. The Royal Navy learned that lesson in the Falklands war. One of their destroyers was hit by an Exocet missile, the warhead didn't explode but the ship's aluminum superstructure caught fire from the heat of the rocket engine resulting in the loss of the ship. If the Star Princess' aluminum structures caught fire it might explain the extent of the exterior damage and why it took so long to put out the blaze. Of course, at this point, this is all still speculation.

The ship was the HMS Sheffield........ and an alminum fire is more difficult to extinguish

[Firefighterhoop]

Anyone know the Star well enough to tell what cabin #'s were damaged? I think I stayed in that area on the Baja deck a bit back.

Frightening! And, so very sad.

 

It looks like port side Aloha, Baha, Carribe, and Dolpin 300's to 500's with the ABC decks being the worst off

[Firefighterhoop]

I keep hearing:

 

What would start a fire on the balcony?

What would burn on a balcony?

 

The fire could of easily spread from cabin to cabin. Yes the balconies burned, but so did the cabins. So why so much speculation about the balconies? Anyone?

 

I don't mean to come across rude here, but how do you know the cabin's burned? How do you know the extent to what the cabins burned? How do you know how many cabins fully burned?

 

All the pictures have told us so far is that the balcony cabins lost their balcony and it appears to have heavy smoke/and some fire damage to the inside of the cabins, but no extent has been released yet as to which the cabins were damaged..

 

I have read witness reports that obviously the hallways had smoke damage, but no one has reported that the hallway had fire damage, or fire damage accross the hallway. That is why i came up with the scenario that I did about the fire spreading through the balconies, and NOT through the cabins. That is why, at this time I am thinking the sprinkler's work, and confined the fires to the cabins, and the only other means of travel was the balconies, which is made obvious by the pictures.

 

Again, I have been to several fires, and seen the damage they have caused. You do have a point, the fire could have started inside a room - however, it spread to the balcony, and I think that is how it spread to other rooms, is through the balconies..

[aggieastrosfan]

To add to firefigher's comments:

 

I was watching ABC news at 4:30 this morning (gotta love 6 1/2 month olds :rolleyes: ), and they were did an interview with someone who was actually in one of those those burned cabins. He talked about going back to his cabin and trying to salvage his belongings, and one comment that sticks out in my mind was that he mentioned the balcony being gone; it was like a huge hole in the cabin where the sliding door and balcony used to be.

 

This sounds to me like the cabins aren't nearly as damaged on the inside as the balconies were, especially if they actually let passengers return to these cabins. I'm sure there's tons of smoke damage, some fire damage, etc., but I don't think they were all charred to a crisp the way the outside was.

[Titan(ic)5.6]

The ship was not seriously damaged and would sail back to Fort Lauderdale, Fla., on Friday, Peterkin said.

 

Yeah, right.

 

I think that the ship will be out of service more than a few days. :rolleyes:

 

 

[AWOL]

How in the world is Princess going to maintain the Star Princess' "onward schedule" after a fire like this? What are the Princess execs smoking?

 

There is no way Princess can fake the public and Wall Street out with a mumble jumble press release about getting back on an onward schedule.

 

The Star Princess is toast for some time to come. End of story.

I have to kind of disagree with your assessment of the situation. I am a Project Engineer for a large shipping company having developed plans for the repair of damaged vessels in the past. I see no reason the ship cannot be performing as designed within the next week. Seeing as there isn't any structural damage that affects the seaworthiness of the vessel, I would just close off the damaged rooms and continue on with business. I would then have the material needed for the repairs prefabbed and once this was done, put the ship in a shipyard to put them in place. This should not take longer than a week. I would have a repair crew on the ship getting the rooms stripped while the cruise is going on and so it would just be a matter of lifting the repacment balconies into place and welding them on

 

Regards

Roger

[Titan(ic)5.6]

The ship was not seriously damaged and would sail back to Fort Lauderdale, Fla., on Friday, Peterkin said.

 

Yeah, right.

 

I think that the ship will be out of service more than a few days. :rolleyes:

 

 

[911boss]

Some questions on the board about what Princess will do in the next couple of days with passengers. We had a similiar thing happen to us on the Island Princess a few years ago when we hit the Regent Sea whiile docking in Skagway. It tore a hole about 75 feet long in the side of our ship. We docked and continued the day as planned. At dinner they announced that the Coast Guard would not allow us to continue on into the open ocean but we could turn around and go back to Juneau where we would be flown to Seattle and then flown home. They had chartered planes waiting for us in Juneau and we proceeded to Seattle where they put us up in what is now the Four Seasons. They paid for our food, rooms and phone calls home. We flew home the next day, first class. Through some good work by our travel agent and Princes we returned to Alaska in Sept. on the old Star Princess, once again first class, at no cost to us. I understand the ship was out of service for a very short time so I think we will all be surprised at how quick the Star will be again sailing the Caribbean.

[PelicanBill]

I doubt Carnival/Princess wants a ship that looks melted on the outside cruising around - bad for image. I predict they will send it to a port, but it will take 1-2 months to get the materials needed made/shipped, and the workers they need, and then repairs will take a few weeks. So I bet the ship is out of use for about 3 months. Logistics and labor for refurbishment ususally takes months to set up, even expedited they need custom made materials to rebuild cabins and balconies.

 

And I would not be surprised if the coast guard condemns the ship becuase of compromised electrical and plumbing, as well as smoke damage, for such a large part of the ship.

[KansasScrapper]

For those of you who think a single cigarette could not do this, you are sadly wrong. Have you not been hearing about all the wild fires we are having here in the middle of the US? There was a wild fire not far from where we live that was started by someone throwing their cigarette out of their window. It is burning large massive areas, not just small areas. The one that burn by us was over 10,000 ackers. That isn't a small room or balcony. So YES they can start a fire and it can become a HUGE one. Please don't jump on me, I am in NO WAY saying this did start by a cigarette, just simply showing you it can & HAS. Right here in KS even.

[CGTNORMANDIE]

None of us knows what really happened on STAR PRINCESS. You can speculate all day long but I think it would be wise to reserve the comments until the real story comes out. We will not know anything until we get first hand Coast Guard reports. In the meantime...we can only sit here and gather in the witness statements and news reports but...rendering opinions seems to be a futile exercise.

 

ROSS

[cruise182]

Prediction. Fire started on deck 8. In the pictures there is only one cabin on deck 8 with extensive fire damage.

[Twinsmomct]

Interesting video...

 

http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=9e0157e8-f458-47ab-89cf-d0d154369fa0&f=00

[jimneycrkit]

Just saw Good morning America . They interviewed a guy who was on the ship and showed his pictures of his cabin after the fire. He said that everything had melted inside his cabin, tv, walls, balconey gone. He said they couldn't even get inside several cabins as the door locks had melted. He said even the sprinklers had melted. He was about 50 yards away from the start of the fire. They lost all their belongings. They won't be able to fix those cabins all that quickly.

[captlou]

None of us knows what really happened on STAR PRINCESS. You can speculate all day long but I think it would be wise to reserve the comments until the real story comes out. We will not know anything until we get first hand Coast Guard reports. In the meantime...we can only sit here and gather in the witness statements and news reports but...rendering opinions seems to be a futile exercise.

I agree, it's all conjecture. However, I have found that during an occurance such as this theories and conjecture fly around. Maybe it's a way for folks to process bad news, and/or our "need" to know. When the first WTC tower was hit during the Sept 11 attacks, the radio reported that a small private plane had crashed into the tower (there was a radio on in our systems office). We quickly found out that it was something much bigger, especially as we stood on 5th Avenue and watched both towers collapse. Talk about conjecture and rumors; we walked around stunned for a long time, and it's ALL people talked about.

 

That said, I think our firefighter has come up with some plausible possibilities. The comment about aluminum sparked something in my feeble brain, and I put a bunch of facts together to show why. Part of it is technical mumbo-jumbo, so some of you may not be interested in reading the following. For those of you who like this stuff, read on.......

 

While solid bulk aluminum is a safe and noncombustible material, molten aluminum can be reactive.

Aluminum is much lighter than steel and relatively strong. Since it doesn't rust, it seems like the ideal metal for ships. However, no one uses aluminum for fighting ships because it can catch fire when hit, which produces intense heat that cannot be extinguished with water or regular fire extinguishers. In fact, aluminum is so volatile that powdered aluminum is a prime component in rocket fuel.

The US Army learned this when it tested early versions of the aluminum Bradley infantry fighting vehicle. In the Bradley tests, small RPG explosions caused only minor damage, but ignited the aluminum body and caused most vehicles to literally burn to the ground. Even worse, burning aluminum produces deadly fumes which instantly kill anyone inside.

The Israelis learned that aluminum armor can ignite during their 1982 invasion of Lebanon. According to one account, "PLO ambushes of Israeli columns with RPGs caused extensive casualties, in part because of the tendency of the M113’s aluminum armor to catch on fire after being hit by anti-tank weapons.

The only real difference between aluminum and steel (other than weight) is that aluminum looses its strength at a much lower temperature, meaning that an aluminum vehicle that has burnt will generally collapse. Also to explain the HMS Sheffield situation. The Sheffield was hit by an Exocet missile, the warhead did not detonate, and damage was relatively light. However the fuel from the missile set fire to the ship's wiring. The ship's wiring was a product of cost cutting and burned very well. However in the impact the missile knocked out the ship’s single water line, meaning that the crew could not put out the fire. Had the lines been working they would have controlled the fire and put it out. There are two reasons why the aluminum was changed for steel in ships. The first reason is that aluminum warships suffered cracks from metal fatigue; the second is that should the ship burn the aluminum melts at a lower temperature and suffers structural collapse, it also conducts heat well and this helps spread the blaze.

Aluminum lacks strength without a small amount of magnesium, copper, silicon, and manganese. While aluminum alloys melt at temperatures typically over 1000°F, their properties can change significantly at much lower temperatures. As a rough rule of thumb, aluminum alloys do not show significant property changes at temperature below 200, but will lose strength with time at higher temperatures.

Used in the marine industry for more than 100 years, aluminum combines light weight and ease of fabrication with corrosion and fatigue resistance. Aluminum's unique characteristics allow vessel volume and height to be increased without loss of stability. Passenger compartments can be larger and more cabins can be located above sea level. Cruise ships gain increased maneuverability and access to shallow draft ports using aluminum.

Since 1900, the size and weight of ships have grown at a dramatic pace. Built in 1910 and weighing 46,328 tons, the White Star line’s RMS Titanic was the largest movable object of its time. The Titanic, perhaps the most famous ship to ever set sail, was impressive because of its sheer size. A more modern example of the enormity of ships is the Queen Elizabeth 2, built in 1969. The Queen Elizabeth 2 weighs 70,327 tons. Built in 1997 by Princess Cruises, The Grand Princess is one of the largest non-military ocean-going vessels in the world. With 14 decks and a capacity of 2600 passengers, The Grand Princess weighs 109,000 tons, more than twice the weight of the Titanic [Ocean Odyssea Cruises, 1999]. Since 1910 the maximum weight of ships has more than doubled. Increasing demands for size have forced ship designers to search for alternative materials to reduce the weight of the ship without compromising strength.

When properly designed, aluminum typically saves over 50% of the weight required by low-carbon steel in small structures [ASM: Corrosion, 1994]. Aluminum has a density of only 2.7 g/cm3, approximately one-third as much as steel (7.83 g/cm3). This means that one cubic foot of steel weighs about 490 lbs where as one cubic foot of aluminum weighs only 170 lbs. Because aluminum’s low density corresponds to light weight, it has been used for marine structures such as navigation buoys, lifeboats, motor launches, cabin cruisers, patrol boats, barges, and larger vessels since 1930. In 1960, Rogers summarized the experience of the Canadian Navy in part as follows: [Hatch, 1984]

'It cannot be emphasized too strongly that aluminum as a new shipbuilding material needs treating as such. It has its own design problems, its own maintenance problems, and its own repair problems. It cannot be used everywhere as a substitute for steel or any other alloy, but if the contractors, naval architects, shipwrights, and shipbuilders, and of course suppliers will treat it as something that requires a new approach they will find they have a very fine metal for use in seawater and marine atmospheres.'

Aluminum is commonly used in other marine applications as well. These structures include main strength members such as hulls, deckhouses, and other applications such as stack enclosures, hatch covers, windows, air ports, accommodation ladders, gangways, bulkheads, deck plates, ventilation equipment, lifesaving equipment, furniture, hardware, fuel tanks, and bright trim [ASM: Aluminum, 1993]. Aluminum-manganese (5xxx), and aluminum manganese-silicon (6xxx) alloys have been widely used for ship superstructures [Hatch, 1984]. High strength aluminum-copper (2xxx) and aluminum-zinc-manganese (7xxx) alloys can also be used in marine atmospheres, but they must be protected by cladding or painting. Properly designed aluminum structures can reduce the weight of the superstructure and hull of a ship by 67%. In other words, one kilogram of weight saved by the use of the lighter aluminum structures often leads to an overall decrease in displaced weight of three kilograms [ASM: Aluminum, 1994].

Please, don't take hold of this info, and declare that the damage was caused because they used aluminum in the structure, even though it could have exacerbated the situation (as firefighterhoop has proposed). The bottom line is that we're all only guessing, but I always seem to learn something from these "conversations." Nothing we say here will effect the investigation one way or another, nor will we change the mind of anyone who has what some may think is a hare-brained theory (ie: The fire was started by a terrorist). However, it all makes for a good diversion. Have a good (safe) weekend.

[negc]

None of us knows what really happened on STAR PRINCESS. You can speculate all day long but I think it would be wise to reserve the comments until the real story comes out. We will not know anything until we get first hand Coast Guard reports. In the meantime...we can only sit here and gather in the witness statements and news reports but...rendering opinions seems to be a futile exercise.

 

ROSS

 

A lonely voice of reason in a sea of speculation. Hi Ross. I concur with your suggestion, but I fear that the tabloid press and sensationalist TV networks and commentators have conditioned many to engage in the kind of mindless, conspiratorial speculation that we are witnessing at this time. I also fear that when the authoritative investigatory report is finally issued, if its findings don't conform to some folks' preconceived notions, they will be dismissed or undercut by self-appointed "authorities" who will claim to know what really happened and why the investigators wouldn't or couldn't tell the truth.

:(

[naplesam]

None of us knows what really happened on STAR PRINCESS. You can speculate all day long but I think it would be wise to reserve the comments until the real story comes out. We will not know anything until we get first hand Coast Guard reports. In the meantime...we can only sit here and gather in the witness statements and news reports but...rendering opinions seems to be a futile exercise.

 

ROSS

 

Thanks! A voice of reason and reality!

 

While most posts have been "good", some have been "bad" while some have been downright "ugly"! (On all the various posts on this subject) Once we have facts, then the debate can begin. We don't even have many pictures yet, especially of the inside. Rumor and speculation is running rampant and as such, is being treated as "fact". Let the experts do their thing and let us know what happened.

[MattInFLL]

There is no doubt that they *could* patch up that ship and have her back out cruising in a week, and wait for the cabins to be prefabbed and put in later. But I am betting they are not going to try and rush the investigation, and risk angering the victim's relatives the way RCI did with George Smith..and open themselves up to more congressional hearings and calls for US taxation and (more) US regulation.. that was a PR disaster for the industry, and with everything going on, Carnival will step gingerly. And they can afford to.

[Princess Chatterer]

"Brandon Henry said, "They went outside; the hallway was filled with smoke. Everybody was running up and down the hallway. One of the entrances, I guess, was blocked. They went and pounded on my grandpa's door, who was across the hall, and my stepdad to get them out. Then they had to find another way out because, I guess, the entrance was blocked."

 

http://www.wivb.com/Global/story.asp?S=4680012

[Princess Chatterer]

"One man broke a toe while fleeing his cabin when the blaze broke out on the luxury Star Princess as it sailed towards Montego Bay in Jamaica."

 

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006130895,00.html

[Princess Chatterer]

"Vice-President of Princess Cruise Lines Steve Nielsen says a berth in Montego Bay has been made available for the vessel to dock while investigations are carried out. He says damage assessment is expected to be completed by Friday morning. Passengers will have the option to stay in Jamaica or return home at the cruise line's expense."

 

"In the wake of Thursday's incident Princess Cruises has cancelled the visit of another vessel to Jamaica. It was slated to depart Fort Lauderdale on Sunday."

 

http://www.rjr94fm.com/news/story.php?category=0&story=23769

[MaryPoppinz]

Star Princess would have been the only one. She has been sailing all Western itineraries from FLL on Sunday, with CB sailing all Eastern from FLL on Saturday.