Bereavement and changing lead passenger

[Jonesthecat]

Sorry this is a repeat topic as my original thread was deleted as I had mentions the agent and could not amend my post. 
 

I have booked and fully paid for a cruise in July to celebrate my mom’s 70th birthday and my parents golden wedding anniversary. Sadly my dad died suddenly just over 2 weeks ago so I am trying to change his name on the booking to allow my mom to still go and have a companion with her. The TA has said P & O will need to see a power of attorney to show I have the right to change my dads name (they acknowledge everything was booked by me, paid for by me and are linked bookings). I don’t have a POA as my father was fit and well and had a sudden cardiac arrest. They have therefore asked to a copy of the will to show I’m an executor but have said P & O may not accept this.,

 

its obviously a very difficult time anyway and I am still in shock from my dads death, so this feels really hard to deal with. Has anyone got any advice of what I can do? I’ve been told P & O won’t deal with me because I did not book directly so I feel a bit at the mercy of the TA. Many thanks in advance and for the advice I had received before my post was deleted.,

[Selbourne]

As I said in my response to your original thread, I’m sorry to hear about your loss and the problems that you are experiencing.
 

It is indeed the case that if you book through a TA then P&O won’t deal with you direct unless you make a complaint. However, as long as you have a decent TA, this is usually an advantage. Apparently these days it is extremely difficult to get through to P&O (unless making a new booking) whereas TAs have direct lines and will (usually) remove the hassle from you. 
 

A power of attorney (as @Megabear2 pointed out in your original thread) should not be relevant in this case. They are designed to take over the affairs of people who are unable to do so themselves due to ill health (dementia etc) but they expire in the event of death. I guess that P&O might accept it as a document that shows that your late father entrusted you with his affairs in life, but it would no longer be a legally effective document. 
 

From other replies received (most importantly the reply from our resident Carnival employee) it sounds as though your best option is to make an insurance claim and re-book. However, if you have a copy of your late fathers Will, they may allow the executor (hopefully yourself) to make the name change, which would be easier and ensure that you retain your original cabins. Good luck and do let us know what the outcome is. 

[Thejuggler]

Sorry for your sudden loss.

 

Whilst you are requesting what appears to a simple solution, it is complicated by the fact the person passing is the lead passenger.  They are the individual that holds the contract, as they have passed they can no longer be party to that contract and novation to another person probably isn't an option,

 

The other complication is any refund or insurance payout forms part of the deceased estate ( regardless of who actually paid).

 

Due to these  issues I'd change tack and go through the agent's process for cancelling the booking.  You then claim on insurance for any money paid.

 

 

 

 

 

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, Jonesthecat said:

Sorry this is a repeat topic as my original thread was deleted as I had mentions the agent and could not amend my post. 
 

I have booked and fully paid for a cruise in July to celebrate my mom’s 70th birthday and my parents golden wedding anniversary. Sadly my dad died suddenly just over 2 weeks ago so I am trying to change his name on the booking to allow my mom to still go and have a companion with her. The TA has said P & O will need to see a power of attorney to show I have the right to change my dads name (they acknowledge everything was booked by me, paid for by me and are linked bookings). I don’t have a POA as my father was fit and well and had a sudden cardiac arrest. They have therefore asked to a copy of the will to show I’m an executor but have said P & O may not accept this.,

 

its obviously a very difficult time anyway and I am still in shock from my dads death, so this feels really hard to deal with. Has anyone got any advice of what I can do? I’ve been told P & O won’t deal with me because I did not book directly so I feel a bit at the mercy of the TA. Many thanks in advance and for the advice I had received before my post was deleted.,

I appreciate that under normal circumstances P&O will not deal with you direct due to your travel agent booking however in these circumstances I would make a call to them myself to ascertain exactly what they will require and accept from you via your travel agent.  It is simply a matter of not being piggy in the middle between two organisations if you do this, you are not seeking to make the amendment via them just asking for confirmation and advice of what they will require/accept. Take contemporaneous notes or record the conversation so you can share it with your travel agent once you have clarified the situation.

 

I am assuming you do have access to your father's will and if so suggest you let P&O/your travel agent know this.  However as you will be aware the will in itself is at this stage unproven as it has to go through probate.  Obviously that procedure will be long and probate will not be proven before the date of the holiday and it is for this reason I do not understand the relevance of it at this stage as it is not a "legal" entity until proven.  The only proviso regarding the will would be if you or your mother are named as executors because if you are not and someone else is then it would most likely not suffice. That being said the death certificate is a legal document identifying your father's passing and is a legal document even at this stage.

 

Rather than causing yourself undue stress and anxiety this direct approach should give you clarity as to whether the actual change will be possible or whether cancellation and an insurance claim is the only option.  Am I correct that there are other passengers involved, not just your parents? That being the case before going down the cancellation route I would check with all the insurance companies that all the passengers will be covered in the event of cancellation following your father's passing.  Unfortunately not all insurers behave the same way with regard to travelling companions.  Clearly your mother will be covered.

 

Once you have this information you should then be better placed to go back to your travel agent to discuss the situation from a more informed position.  I wish you every luck and hope a suitable solution is offered for you all.

 

 

[Jonesthecat]

Cancelling feels a difficult option because I have bought both cabins and paid for lots of extras. I am not sure if the insurance will cover my cabin (even though I have experienced a significant loss) and I can’t go without my mom as she can’t currently be by herself because it’s all been very traumatic due to how my dad passed as well as him no longer being with us. 

41 minutes ago, Thejuggler said:

Sorry for your sudden loss.

 

Whilst you are requesting what appears to a simple solution, it is complicated by the fact the person passing is the lead passenger.  They are the individual that holds the contract, as they have passed they can no longer be party to that contract and novation to another person probably isn't an option,

 

The other complication is any refund or insurance payout forms part of the deceased estate ( regardless of who actually paid).

 

Due to these  issues I'd change tack and go through the agent's process for cancelling the booking.  You then claim on insurance for any money paid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Megabear2]

3 minutes ago, Jonesthecat said:

Cancelling feels a difficult option because I have bought both cabins and paid for lots of extras. I am not sure if the insurance will cover my cabin (even though I have experienced a significant loss) and I can’t go without my mom as she can’t currently be by herself because it’s all been very traumatic due to how my dad passed as well as him no longer being with us. 

 

If cancellation does become the only option the extras can be cancelled before the entire package is also cancelled.  These extras will be fully refundable.  You should be able to do this via P&O in your cruise personaliser or over the telephone.  You have plenty of time to do this, in fact they are the only items not at issue at this stage so one less thing to worry about.

[Jonesthecat]

4 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

I appreciate that under normal circumstances P&O will not deal with you direct due to your travel agent booking however in these circumstances I would make a call to them myself to ascertain exactly what they will require and accept from you via your travel agent.  It is simply a matter of not being piggy in the middle between two organisations if you do this, you are not seeking to make the amendment via them just asking for confirmation and advice of what they will require/accept. Take contemporaneous notes or record the conversation so you can share it with your travel agent once you have clarified the situation.

 

I am assuming you do have access to your father's will and if so suggest you let P&O/your travel agent know this.  However as you will be aware the will in itself is at this stage unproven as it has to go through probate.  Obviously that procedure will be long and probate will not be proven before the date of the holiday and it is for this reason I do not understand the relevance of it at this stage as it is not a "legal" entity until proven.  The only proviso regarding the will would be if you or your mother are named as executors because if you are not and someone else is then it would most likely not suffice. That being said the death certificate is a legal document identifying your father's passing and is a legal document even at this stage.

 

Rather than causing yourself undue stress and anxiety this direct approach should give you clarity as to whether the actual change will be possible or whether cancellation and an insurance claim is the only option.  Am I correct that there are other passengers involved, not just your parents? That being the case before going down the cancellation route I would check with all the insurance companies that all the passengers will be covered in the event of cancellation following your father's passing.  Unfortunately not all insurers behave the same way with regard to travelling companions.  Clearly your mother will be covered.

 

Once you have this information you should then be better placed to go back to your travel agent to discuss the situation from a more informed position.  I wish you every luck and hope a suitable solution is offered for you all.

 

 

Thank you. I am an executor in my father’s will and everything passed to my mother as well. It’s a very frustrating situation in the midst of dealing with so much other paperwork too. 
there are other passengers-myself and my partner. I have the same insurance company for all of us which may help. Mom is very upset as she had just decided she wanted to go ahead with the cruise and still have the holiday dad was looking forward to and it was of course a gift for them both for her birthday and their anniversary. 
the TA wasn’t very helpful at all and just said  what P & O will want but she said she didn’t think they would do it. 

[Megabear2]

3 minutes ago, Jonesthecat said:

Thank you. I am an executor in my father’s will and everything passed to my mother as well. It’s a very frustrating situation in the midst of dealing with so much other paperwork too. 
there are other passengers-myself and my partner. I have the same insurance company for all of us which may help. Mom is very upset as she had just decided she wanted to go ahead with the cruise and still have the holiday dad was looking forward to and it was of course a gift for them both for her birthday and their anniversary. 
the TA wasn’t very helpful at all and just said  what P & O will want but she said she didn’t think they would do it. 

Bypass them in the first instance by speaking to P&O.  They open in 10 minutes ring them dead on 9.00am as queue waits can be very long at present. There's nothing to lose, you may be pleasantly surprised. I'm crossing everything for you having a nice surprise.  People will want to help, they are very understanding as I found in my case.

Edited June 11 by Megabear2

[Thejuggler]

If you are going to call P&O do it on the basis of a general query.

 

Something along the lines of:

 

You are considering booking a cruise but as a couple of passengers are elderly you need clarfication on what happens if someone on the booking dies before date of travel and what if the person who dies is lead passenger.  What if the booking is done through an agent, do the same policies apply?

 

If you mention your booking through an agent they will ask you to contact them as P&O don't know the agent Ts and Cs and policies.

Edited June 11 by Thejuggler

[Selbourne]

@Megabear2 Not all estates have to go through probate. This from a solicitors website;

 

“In cases where all property and bank accounts were held jointly, the ownership of the property or accounts would usually automatically transfer to the surviving party. For example, if a husband and wife owned all property as joint tenants and all bank accounts jointly, if one spouse died, the surviving spouse would automatically take ownership of the whole estate. In cases such as these, the surviving spouse would probably not need to apply for a Grant of Probate”.

[Megabear2]

18 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

@Megabear2 Not all estates have to go through probate. This from a solicitors website;

 

“In cases where all property and bank accounts were held jointly, the ownership of the property or accounts would usually automatically transfer to the surviving party. For example, if a husband and wife owned all property as joint tenants and all bank accounts jointly, if one spouse died, the surviving spouse would automatically take ownership of the whole estate. In cases such as these, the surviving spouse would probably not need to apply for a Grant of Probate”.

When I changed my cruise when my mother died the first question was is it a settled will or has probate been granted. As it happened my father was alive and all the estate was passing to him but the question was still raised.  My father was not travelling only my mother and I.  They still asked the question.  I am assuming nothing much has changed and without them having sight of the will they will ask the question.  If the will is settled as per your quote then the solicitor dealing with the issue could presumably provide a letter to the effect although as the gentleman only passed two weeks ago it would seem rather unlikely it has settled in his wife's favour yet.

 

As to not discussing the  requirements I'd be very surprised if they would not speak in general terms to the OP.  He is not asking for anything directly to do with his booking but is seeking help and guidance on P&O's policy in a case such as his own.  He is fully aware he has to go via his travel agent, but he states they are not being very helpful. P&O should be able to explain their policies, who his booking with it totally irrelevant if he is not seeking to do anything with his own booking but seeking generic advice on policy and requirements

 

[Jonesthecat]

I have been advised the will does not need to go through probate but I need to check this as I am not sure that is correct advice. 

[Selbourne]

49 minutes ago, Jonesthecat said:

I have been advised the will does not need to go through probate but I need to check this as I am not sure that is correct advice. 

This link provides a contact number for the Courts and Tribunals service centre which can advise. 
 

When my father died I applied for probate but when my mother-in-law died it wasn’t required. On both occasions I managed the process myself and didn’t involve a solicitor at any stage. It was quite straightforward.

 

https://www.gov.uk/applying-for-probate

[david63]

47 minutes ago, Jonesthecat said:

I have been advised the will does not need to go through probate but I need to check this as I am not sure that is correct advice. 

Obviously I do not know all the facts and it is quite possible that probate is not required "at the moment"

 

Having been down this route more times than I care to remember I would strongly advise that at some point you do get the will proven.

 

As an example - when my father-in-law died some years back there was no need to have his will proven as all assets were in joint names with my mother-in-law. The problem arose when some 15 years later my mother-in-law died as the house was in joint names and without having probate for my father-in-law neither my wife nor her sister were able to sell the house. This meant gaining retrospective probate for my father-in-law.

[tring]

1 hour ago, Jonesthecat said:

I have been advised the will does not need to go through probate but I need to check this as I am not sure that is correct advice. 

 

It does sound a complicated situation, but my thoughts are it would be far simpler to go with the cancellation claim from insurance and rebook option as that will be a commonly done procedure.  Reading your policy will help a lot and also a call to the insurance company may well confirm that.  Cancellation was the option suggested yesterday by a well respected member of this group, who has inside knowledge of P&O procedures.

 

If you do cancel though, make sure you cancel the booked extras before then, and make sure the refunds are said to be in process.  The extras are normally booked under a specific name, so if say an excursion was booked for your father, that may be lost with a name change, so the newly named person may not be booked on the same excursion departure.  So may be worthwhile cancelling all those extras anyway.  Can always re-book them.

 

If a cruise is booked through an agent, normally P&O will not speak to the customer directly, so likely you would have to leave the agent to deal with whatever option you choose.  Also I would not personally rely on any information I may get from P&O through a hypothetical, "what if" phone call as they are notorious for not always giving the correct information.  You just have to go with what your agent asks, but I would think a copy of a will would be all that was needed, so would not seem difficult to supply.  I am not sure I see the difficulty there, documents will be needed by all sorts of companies in the forthcoming months.  You will not get a will proved before a July holiday, so that is not a problem for you, just provide what is asked for, if that is the option to be taken.

 

Hope you get this resolved soon, without any problems.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11 by tring

[Jonesthecat]

Thank you all for the advice. I have already provided the will and the death certificate-even though they did not ask for the latter. 
if cancellation is my only option then I will. I can’t currently afford to re book without the insurance money as we have paid for the funeral too. But if it’s our only option we will cancel and do something with another company at a later date. It’s very much put me off cruises sadly. 

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, Jonesthecat said:

Thank you all for the advice. I have already provided the will and the death certificate-even though they did not ask for the latter. 
if cancellation is my only option then I will. I can’t currently afford to re book without the insurance money as we have paid for the funeral too. But if it’s our only option we will cancel and do something with another company at a later date. It’s very much put me off cruises sadly. 

I assume the documents have been provided to the travel agent rather than P&O and therefore they have been forwarded to them by the agent?

 

Has anyone given you a time frame for a decision on what the options are?

[tring]

1 hour ago, Jonesthecat said:

Thank you all for the advice. I have already provided the will and the death certificate-even though they did not ask for the latter. 
if cancellation is my only option then I will. I can’t currently afford to re book without the insurance money as we have paid for the funeral too. But if it’s our only option we will cancel and do something with another company at a later date. It’s very much put me off cruises sadly. 

 

Glad to hear you have the situation in progress and hope you get a response soon.  Sadly insurance payments can take a while to come through, so that would be a problem in some circumstances, which I can see, makes cancellation the worst option for you.  

 

Not sure this would entirely be a cruise problem though and suspect it could arise with other holiday company as lead passengers usually have to make any amendments, as far as I know. The important thing is that you are all happy with the outcome in this instance, whatever it is.  Let us know how you get on.  Hopefully whatever happens you can all move forward once the situation is resolved.

 

I heard about a case a couple of weeks ago when someone had let the booking details of their holiday be known publicly and some unscrupulous person had used those details to cancel the holiday entirely.  That sort of thing does happen nowadays, so can be a reassurance that a holiday company does take this sort of security in hand and ask for some sort of proof.

 

 

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, tring said:

 

It does sound a complicated situation, but my thoughts are it would be far simpler to go with the cancellation claim from insurance and rebook option as that will be a commonly done procedure.  Reading your policy will help a lot and also a call to the insurance company may well confirm that.  Cancellation was the option suggested yesterday by a well respected member of this group, who has inside knowledge of P&O procedures.

 

If you do cancel though, make sure you cancel the booked extras before then, and make sure the refunds are said to be in process.  The extras are normally booked under a specific name, so if say an excursion was booked for your father, that may be lost with a name change, so the newly named person may not be booked on the same excursion departure.  So may be worthwhile cancelling all those extras anyway.  Can always re-book them.

 

If a cruise is booked through an agent, normally P&O will not speak to the customer directly, so likely you would have to leave the agent to deal with whatever option you choose.  Also I would not personally rely on any information I may get from P&O through a hypothetical, "what if" phone call as they are notorious for not always giving the correct information.  You just have to go with what your agent asks, but I would think a copy of a will would be all that was needed, so would not seem difficult to supply.  I am not sure I see the difficulty there, documents will be needed by all sorts of companies in the forthcoming months.  You will not get a will proved before a July holiday, so that is not a problem for you, just provide what is asked for, if that is the option to be taken.

 

Hope you get this resolved soon, without any problems.

 

 

 

 

Just to be clear I was not suggesting a "what if" conversation but an actual discussion on what the cruise line's requirements are in these types of circumstances.  Whilst a distressing and one off event for the OP this situation must sadly occur quite regularly and there will be proper advice and processes that P&O follow which hopefully they can advise him of.  

 

The OP indicated his travel agent had not been particularly helpful or by the sound of it sympathetic. P&O on the other hand should be able to tell him what they will or won't do.  My experience is that with bereavement they are extremely helpful.  

 

 

[tring]

22 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Just to be clear I was not suggesting a "what if" conversation but an actual discussion on what the cruise line's requirements are in these types of circumstances.  Whilst a distressing and one off event for the OP this situation must sadly occur quite regularly and there will be proper advice and processes that P&O follow which hopefully they can advise him of.  

 

The OP indicated his travel agent had not been particularly helpful or by the sound of it sympathetic. P&O on the other hand should be able to tell him what they will or won't do.  My experience is that with bereavement they are extremely helpful.  

 

 

 

I know it was not you who suggested a "What if" conversation, but another poster suggested that in the following post.  I would not, personally, think that approach would gain reliable information from both our own experience and what I have read about from others.  That is what was largely in my mind when I wrote my post. 

 

If you have had P&O deal directly with you regards a similar situation, (or it has happened for others) when a booking was via an agent, then I stand corrected entirely.  

 

There are a lot of advantages/disadvantages regards making a booking through an agent and admittedly this is a situation when it would be easier not to have an agent as a go between.  Then again getting through to P&O on the phone may have also proved a major problem.  From what was posted on the previous thread yesterday by Moley, it did sound like P&O do require those documents in these circumstances.

 

 

 

Edited June 11 by tring

[Jonesthecat]

41 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

I assume the documents have been provided to the travel agent rather than P&O and therefore they have been forwarded to them by the agent?

 

Has anyone given you a time frame for a decision on what the options are?

I have provided it to the TA and they said they will forward it to P and O. They haven’t given me any time frames either. 
 

when I spoke to the agent they said do you want to cancel or does the other passenger want to travel alone. I said we would like to change my father’s name for someone else and that’s when she said I would need a power of attorney-which is incorrect as not everyone has POA or needs it. She then said I would need to provide the will instead. 

[Megabear2]

29 minutes ago, Jonesthecat said:

I have provided it to the TA and they said they will forward it to P and O. They haven’t given me any time frames either. 
 

when I spoke to the agent they said do you want to cancel or does the other passenger want to travel alone. I said we would like to change my father’s name for someone else and that’s when she said I would need a power of attorney-which is incorrect as not everyone has POA or needs it. She then said I would need to provide the will instead. 

It has just occurred to me to ask is your booking a select or saver fare?  This can have some bearing.  

 

P&O's T&C's do not actually reference a deceased person being lead pasenger but the relevant clauses seem to be as follows:

 

AMENDMENTS TO THE CONTRACT

 

12. In clauses 12, 13 and 14, “another person” means another person who can comply with all conditions applicable to the Package. A Package may be transferred to another person provided that the Guest consults with P&O Cruises prior to purporting to transfer the Package and P&O Cruises receives in writing the transfer request at least 7 days before the scheduled departure date. Where P&O Cruises agrees to the transfer, both the Guest and the substituted Guest shall be jointly and severally liable for the payment of any balance of the price due and for any reasonable additional fees, charges or other costs arising from the transfer. In the case of Guests booked under an Early Saver or Saver, all transfers of a Package to another person under this clause 12 will be subject to an administration charge of £20. Guests who have booked a Select Price will not be required to pay an administration charge.

13. Any transfer of a Package to another person will be subject to payment of all charges incurred in connection with the transfer (for example hotel amendment charges) and any transfer of a Package including any flights will also be subject to any charges imposed by the airline. Guests should note that airlines may not allow transfers on scheduled flights and that a flight booking may have to be cancelled and rebooked, in which event the re-booking will always be subject to flight availability and to payment of any charges imposed by the airline which may, in some cases, be the full cost of the ticket.

14. Any request for a transfer of a Package to another person which is received by P&O Cruises less than 7 days before the scheduled departure date shall be treated as a cancellation by the Guest of the Contract and a cancellation charge under clause 38 shall become payable.

[Megabear2]

44 minutes ago, tring said:

If you have had P&O deal directly with you regards a similar situation, (or it has happened for others) when a booking was via an agent, then I stand corrected entirely.  

The cruise my mother had booked was made onboard the ship but transferred to her travel agent.  She died 5 months before the departure date but I called the cruise line direct for advice on the position before contacting the travel agent.  The booking was in my mother's name as she was responsible for the booking and billing. Both P&O and Cunard were very happy to discuss the situation and provide general details of their processes as they were not being asked to actually make any changes but just to provide details of options, processes and procedures.

 

In the event after changing the booking to my husband's name we ended up moving the Cunard booking to an entirely different cruise a year later as my father became seriously unwell the day after my mother's funeral and subsequently passed away himself five months later.  Both P&O and Cunard were extremely sympathetic and prepared to explain their processes to help an easy solution be it transfer of pasenger, transfer of voyage or cancellation- the P&O cruise did in fact get cancelled.

[david63]

Although it might be a bit late now that this has been flagged up but did you actually have to do anything? If you and your mother just arrived at the terminal would anybody actually query where your father was?

[TRLD]

P&O may not work with you because you purchased through a TA. However you might be able to contact them and find out what their processes and what is possible, then submit through a TA.