QM2 making a “U” turn

[Yukon1955]

17 hours ago, *Miss G* said:

 

There are mandatory (zoned) and voluntary (when spotted) speed limitations to protect right whales. Are you sure it was a power failure?

Yes, all incidents could indeed be whale encounters.

[Yukon1955]

11 hours ago, Jim_P said:

I was on during the Australian leg of the world voyage in February this year, and can confirm that there was an unexpected power loss during that trip that left the ship drifting and without air-conditioning for about four hours in the middle of the night. The captain made an announcement in the morning that they had to turn everything off and reset the system. It does seem a little unusual that the exact same thing happened again so soon. 

I'm reminded of the old joke about Jaguar cars and Lucas Electrics, but I won't go there!

[chengkp75]

19 hours ago, Yukon1955 said:

T  On the June 23 cruise to NYC, we saw the ship slow in mid ocean unexplainedly three times, followed by a late arrival.  

 

17 hours ago, *Miss G* said:

 

There are mandatory (zoned) and voluntary (when spotted) speed limitations to protect right whales. Are you sure it was a power failure?

 

9 minutes ago, Yukon1955 said:

Yes, all incidents could indeed be whale encounters.

If these incidents were in fact "mid-ocean", then they were not whale related.  The speed restriction zones are coastal areas, out to at most 200 miles from land.

[QuestionEverything]

On the June 23 to NY crossing, the QM2 had much time at reduced speed mid ocean - down to 8 knots.

I noted that the port side propeller was barely working - very obvious by the differential wake. 

People were pointing at the wake with questions.

I learned the answer from an officer entering the bridge when I was at the observation area.

When I stated the differential propellor wake and reduced speed - his face tightened, and he said a major generator had failed and they were working on it. He refused to state anything further and moved quickly into the bridge.

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, QuestionEverything said:

When I stated the differential propellor wake and reduced speed - his face tightened, and he said a major generator had failed and they were working on it. He refused to state anything further and moved quickly into the bridge.

While there was probably a problem, I would take this statement with a few grains of salt.  If a generator had failed, and the available power was less, they would have slowed all of the azipods down the same amount (and there are 4 of them, not two), as slowing just one side down would require more steering effect from the azipods, taking more power away from straight ahead speed, therefore more drag and even less speed.

 

I would suspect more of a propulsion problem, than a power generation one.  They most likely had slowed or stopped on of the pods for maintenance.

[Yukon1955]

See Chief, sunshine is the best disinfectant!  Now we are getting somewhere.  Not my imagination, not whales, not on time in both directions.

[leyland1989]

1 hour ago, QuestionEverything said:

On the June 23 to NY crossing, the QM2 had much time at reduced speed mid ocean - down to 8 knots.

I noted that the port side propeller was barely working - very obvious by the differential wake. 

People were pointing at the wake with questions.

I learned the answer from an officer entering the bridge when I was at the observation area.

When I stated the differential propellor wake and reduced speed - his face tightened, and he said a major generator had failed and they were working on it. He refused to state anything further and moved quickly into the bridge.

 

I don't recall slowing down to 8 kts, but there were times we slow down to about 20-21kts during rough sea and high wind.  We were about 1.5 hr behind schedule as the result. (and then further 3 hrs due to tidal window) 

I thought it was due to strong headwinds rather than mechanical failure. (Beside the "rumoured" INOP gas turbine, which will limit her top speed to about 24-25 kts on a good day) 
 

After running 7 days crossing for so many years, I think the 6 days schedule is really pushing her and Cunard to the limit.  Let's see if the next westbound crossing will suffer similar delay, then it'd be 3/3. 

 

QM2 has the very first generation Azimuth thrusters made by Alstom/RR, I remember there was a lawsuit against them (by either RCI or Carnival . Whilst the teething issues have mostly been resolved, they are still subpar compared to the modern ones. 

Hopefully there will be major updates to her propulsion and powerplants in her mid-life refit due late 2020's. 

 

Edited July 7 by leyland1989

[chengkp75]

41 minutes ago, Yukon1955 said:

See Chief, sunshine is the best disinfectant!  Now we are getting somewhere.  Not my imagination, not whales, not on time in both directions.

Huh?  Still does not point to a repetitive problem.  Never said it was your imagination, just that you were concluding that it was a repetitive problem that Cunard can't fix.

[Yukon1955]

58 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

While there was probably a problem, I would take this statement with a few grains of salt.  If a generator had failed, and the available power was less, they would have slowed all of the azipods down the same amount (and there are 4 of them, not two), as slowing just one side down would require more steering effect from the azipods, taking more power away from straight ahead speed, therefore more drag and even less speed.

 

I would suspect more of a propulsion problem, than a power generation one.  They most likely had slowed or stopped on of the pods for maintenance.

Chief, I'm curious.  What type of failure can occur on an azipod that can be cured in a matter of minutes/ hours while underway?

[chengkp75]

10 minutes ago, Yukon1955 said:

Chief, I'm curious.  What type of failure can occur on an azipod that can be cured in a matter of minutes/ hours while underway?

Oil filter clogging, or particulate alarm.  Alarm and/or failure of any system that is inside the ship, which is the majority of the azipod system: azimuthing hydraulic pumps, motors, brakes and coolers; problems with the power supply system (frequency converters that change the 60 Hz main power to a variable frequency AC power to allow the motor to run at various speeds).  False alarms that would either shut the azipod down, or would need to stop it to investigate whether it was actual.  Even something that requires going into the pod, if they slow down enough that the propeller doesn't freewheel in the wake, can be done with the shaft locked.  The only things that require a diver or a dry dock are a failure of the propeller seal (unlikely in the open ocean, more likely close to shore where trash can get picked up), or a bearing failure of the motor/propeller shaft.

[Yukon1955]

Thanks Chief, I am fascinated by these machines.  Hoping they sort it out sooner than later.

[QuestionEverything]

Great analysis dear Cunarders.

What ever the reason(s), it was certainly different from the 24.7 knots the Mary was doing before.

On this crossing, had significant head winds and then add in the 6 day limit - pushing the envelope.

Everyone stay well and thrive.

[Jack E Dawson]

On 7/6/2024 at 11:19 AM, Yukon1955 said:

Why can't this problem be fixed?

Yukon1955,

Your question reminds me of a quote from the 80's movie "Annie" in which orphanage director Miss Hannigan (played wonderfully by Carol Burnett) says "why any child would want to be an orphan is beyond me". I'm pretty sure Cunard doesn't want their flag ship, the Queen Mary 2, breaking down, arriving late, causing passenger problems and adversely affecting profits and is doing everything they can to prevent that. But the fact is that the QM2 operates a highly advance, highly complex hybrid (diesel & gas turbine) power/propulsion system. The azipods were a technology stretch in 2003 and have been troublesome since day one. If Stephen Payne could go back in time and make one design change i think it would be a simpler power/propulsion system. Fortunately, for all of us who love the QM2, Mr. Payne wasn't shooting for  mediocrity when he designed her, he was shooting for the stars. What he did was create the greatest ocean liner ever built. Twenty years later she still successfully challenges the North Atlantic Ocean better and faster than any ship afloat. 

I get your concerns Yukon1955, I was onboard on June 13th when the QM2 stopped for approximately 8 hours and can tell you that before propulsion was restored, i too was concerned. Even after it was restored, I wondered if we might stop again. And, if I had not made my flight home with hours to spare, I might be more concerned today. However, the truth is, my biggest concern now is when can we do another Crossing on the QM2.

Jack

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, leyland1989 said:

Hopefully there will be major updates to her propulsion and powerplants in her mid-life refit due late 2020's.

There aren't any "updates" to be made.  They will overhaul the azipods.  The diesel generators are overhauled, generally in service, every 12,000 hours (about 2.5 years), and this is a total teardown and overhaul.

[JT1101]

21 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

There aren't any "updates" to be made.  They will overhaul the azipods.  The diesel generators are overhauled, generally in service, every 12,000 hours (about 2.5 years), and this is a total teardown and overhaul.

Yup! They will tear down the diesels, overhaul the azipods and also refit the electrical systems. Really big jobs like new generators or new azipods would be both time consuming and crazy expensive, taking her out of service for months and the bill would be enormous since both would need to be custom built. 

[leyland1989]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

There aren't any "updates" to be made.  They will overhaul the azipods.  The diesel generators are overhauled, generally in service, every 12,000 hours (about 2.5 years), and this is a total teardown and overhaul.

 

Her last dry dock was last year in October for 25 day.

 

I believe her next dry dock is due May 2026 according to her 38 days gap in the schedule which will be about 2.5 years interval from this last dry dock, you are absolutely right. 

This time it's almost 2 weeks longer, I'd assume it will be a slightly more "intensive" refit or overhaul. "Upgrades" had been done to many ships, QE2 even went from steam turbine to diesel electric. It can be done if the cost justifies it. I won't rule it out completely if reliably issues have become critical to its operation. If the reputation damage and the financial cost of cancelled voyages outweigh the cost of refitting, there may be an incentive to do so to maintain it for the next 20 years of service.  

[JT1101]

It makes sense for 2026 to be a bigger drydock. Cunard typically services their ships in a "tick tock" or "big little" sequence where they alternate major and minor refits. Last October was the minor she was supposed to have in 2020 but the shutdowns happened. It was the "little" so the next one is a "big". 

[leyland1989]

7 minutes ago, JT1101 said:

Yup! They will tear down the diesels, overhaul the azipods and also refit the electrical systems. Really big jobs like new generators or new azipods would be both time consuming and crazy expensive, taking her out of service for months and the bill would be enormous since both would need to be custom built. 

 

Her azimuth thrusters (technically not Azipods since "Azipod" is a trademarked product by ABB) were one of a kind and the most powerful at the time but I believe ABB now also offer similarly rated Azipod for up to 22MW. 

Not saying it will be an easy drop-in replacement, but it's not impossible. 

Marine propulsion technology have also improved since 2003, the new Wärtsilä 46F are now rated up to 19.2 MW compared to QM2's 46C at 16.8 MW, with improved emissions and overhaul intervals to ~24,000 hrs. 
 

If there's a business case for it, those upgrades can certainly be done, especially if Carnival intends to keep it in service for the next 20 years. Especially with stricter emissions standards in the future.  

 

Speaking of emissions, the "yellow smoke" I observed from my last crossing was less than reassuring, was it just NOx rich exhaust? (the yellow hue was more pronounced irl than the picture)

 
 

[sogne]

On 7/6/2024 at 7:20 PM, exlondoner said:

In any case it is not just QM2. QV stopped for several hours one night when we were in the Adriatic, so they could reset something or other. I imagine it happens on most ships from time to time.

Remember  that power cable to pod 

[Yukon1955]

3 hours ago, sogne said:

Remember  that power cable to pod 

Please enlighten us on the power cable.  3 phase I presume.

[Yukon1955]

22 hours ago, leyland1989 said:

 

Her azimuth thrusters (technically not Azipods since "Azipod" is a trademarked product by ABB) were one of a kind and the most powerful at the time but I believe ABB now also offer similarly rated Azipod for up to 22MW. 

Not saying it will be an easy drop-in replacement, but it's not impossible. 

Marine propulsion technology have also improved since 2003, the new Wärtsilä 46F are now rated up to 19.2 MW compared to QM2's 46C at 16.8 MW, with improved emissions and overhaul intervals to ~24,000 hrs. 
 

If there's a business case for it, those upgrades can certainly be done, especially if Carnival intends to keep it in service for the next 20 years. Especially with stricter emissions standards in the future.  

 

Speaking of emissions, the "yellow smoke" I observed from my last crossing was less than reassuring, was it just NOx rich exhaust? (the yellow hue was more pronounced irl than the picture)

 
 

HFO?

[chengkp75]

11 minutes ago, Yukon1955 said:

HFO?

She is always burning HFO at sea.  But that is more than "efficiency haze".

22 hours ago, leyland1989 said:

Speaking of emissions, the "yellow smoke" I observed from my last crossing was less than reassuring, was it just NOx rich exhaust? (the yellow hue was more pronounced irl than the picture)

Is that yellow or brown?  Brown can be caused by too cool an exhaust temperature causing the NOX to condense.  This could be excessive cooling by the scrubbers with the engines at low load.  I'm thinking that is the case, as there is white smoke near the stack, another sign of cool exhaust temperatures (water vapor condensing).  All the cruise ships I've worked on had NOX and SOX analysers in the exhausts to monitor the levels.

Edited July 8 by chengkp75

[leyland1989]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

She is always burning HFO at sea.  But that is more than "efficiency haze".

Is that yellow or brown?  Brown can be caused by too cool an exhaust temperature causing the NOX to condense.  This could be excessive cooling by the scrubbers with the engines at low load.  I'm thinking that is the case, as there is white smoke near the stack, another sign of cool exhaust temperatures (water vapor condensing).  All the cruise ships I've worked on had NOX and SOX analysers in the exhausts to monitor the levels.

It could be just the angle of the sun making it look more brown-ish yellow than normal but the vapour was notably "thicker" and dense than the rest of the voyage.  

It left a trail of brown-ish yellow haze downwind. 

 

On a different day:  

[moses0]

Sorry if this has already been answered but does anyone know just what happened and why we were halted mid crossing for hours on end in the middle of the night? I was on that crossing. Slept through the said incident though 🙂