Just off the Magic - The Great, The Good and the Horrible - Serious Problems Onboard W/ Fighting & Kids

[bg2310]

2 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

Clientele is different, I doubt the temp comes into play.

Temperature absolutely plays a role. It's why crime and violent crime in particular peaks in summer.

 

Hotter temps lead to worse moods and less patience, poorer judgment, etc. and thus people are more likely to lash out, have less self-control. Combine that with alcohol and those who don't moderate their alcohol intake and it's a perfect storm quite frankly.

[jimbo5544]

2 hours ago, bg2310 said:

Temperature absolutely plays a role. It's why crime and violent crime in particular peaks in summer.

 

Hotter temps lead to worse moods and less patience, poorer judgment, etc. and thus people are more likely to lash out, have less self-control. Combine that with alcohol and those who don't moderate their alcohol intake and it's a perfect storm quite frankly.

We can disagree on this. The statistics for an Alaskan cruise (age wise) vs Caribbean cruise is the dynamic, as well as the cultural nature of the clientele (one vs the other).  Another example, Princess, Celebrity HAL, Azamara you hear crickets chiming after 9, Carnival, Royal and NCL party till early morning hours.  They are not partying (drinking) because the outside temp is warm....  All that said, the dead horse has been beat enough, I will move on.

[ccd228]

This sounds like the Aug 15th sailing on the Magic that I was on. Worst cruise. Teenagers had no respect. Couldn't even watch a movie at night without a group sitting around seeing what sounded like who could rap or tell a story better that the last kid and they just keep getting louder. No respect and very loud. FB chat indicated many cabins repeatedly had their doors banged on every night extremely late. Don't think security ever caught any in the act. We normally go after school starts but got a good deal and went. Peoples stuff was stolen off cabin doors. Internet barely worked. I complained but didn't get a refund. Food in my opinion went downhill during Covid and never improved on Carnival Ships. Going on this cruise was a Huge mistake for the crowd that was on the boat. I don't care if you say your vacation is what you make of it. Well in order to enjoy my vacation you are stuck with dealing with the people in your surroundings.

[bg2310]

4 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

We can disagree on this. The statistics for an Alaskan cruise (age wise) vs Caribbean cruise is the dynamic, as well as the cultural nature of the clientele (one vs the other).  Another example, Princess, Celebrity HAL, Azamara you hear crickets chiming after 9, Carnival, Royal and NCL party till early morning hours.  They are not partying (drinking) because the outside temp is warm....  All that said, the dead horse has been beat enough, I will move on.

I'm not speaking about strictly cruise behavior, but behavior more generally. It is a reality that higher temperatures are correlated with higher crime rates. Crime generally peaks in the summer months, and wanes in the winter/colder months. 

 

Cruising doesn't change that dynamic, and your anecdotes don't disprove the science that demonstrates this reality. Not about agree vs disagree, facts don't care about feelings and are still facts regardless.

 

Never said people drink because of the temperature. That's silly. You clearly misunderstood my point. What I'm saying is temperature absolutely plays a factor in this dynamic when you dismissed it, clearly not knowing the facts. That doesn't mean one causes the other, but rather they are related and temperature is part of that interplay.

Edited September 4 by bg2310

[aborgman]

11 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

We can disagree on this. The statistics for an Alaskan cruise (age wise) vs Caribbean cruise is the dynamic, as well as the cultural nature of the clientele (one vs the other).  Another example, Princess, Celebrity HAL, Azamara you hear crickets chiming after 9, Carnival, Royal and NCL party till early morning hours.  They are not partying (drinking) because the outside temp is warm....  All that said, the dead horse has been beat enough, I will move on.

 

...but the statistics for the same cruise line, doing the same route - are worse when the temperature is hotter.

[sanger727]

6 hours ago, bg2310 said:

I'm not speaking about strictly cruise behavior, but behavior more generally. It is a reality that higher temperatures are correlated with higher crime rates. Crime generally peaks in the summer months, and wanes in the winter/colder months. 

 

Cruising doesn't change that dynamic, and your anecdotes don't disprove the science that demonstrates this reality. Not about agree vs disagree, facts don't care about feelings and are still facts regardless.

 

Never said people drink because of the temperature. That's silly. You clearly misunderstood my point. What I'm saying is temperature absolutely plays a factor in this dynamic when you dismissed it, clearly not knowing the facts. That doesn't mean one causes the other, but rather they are related and temperature is part of that interplay.

 

Crime rates don't go up in the summer because it's hot.  Crime rates go up in the summer because 1. schools are out so more juveniles with nothing to do and 2. people spend more time outside which can lead to more conflicts.

 

This is a bit like saying that flu season spikes because it's cold.  Flu season spikes because when it's cold, people spend more time in confined spaces. 

[sanger727]

17 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

The real issue is (in the case of Carnival, for our discussion) can they decide when someone has had enough?  The obvious ones are the stumbling drunks, the VAST majority, not so much.  Who decides?  How to enforce?  Breathalyzer every drink after 4?  It simply does not work. 

 

When I worked at a restaurant we all had to take TIPS training.  That is literally what they teach.  How to decide when someone is too inebriated to serve.  No doubt cruise lines offer similar training. Yes, it is always on the server/bartender to determine to cut someone off. 

 

Ohio Alcohol Seller & Bartender Online Course | TIPS (gettips.com)

 

Someone can easily have more than 15 drinks in a day on a cruise ship.  They can get off in port and drink all day and then come back and have 5 more and be too inebriated to serve.  A set number of drinks is not good policy to determine when to cut someone off.

[DeniseTr]

Demographics do play a role. 30 years ago I might have been one of the drunk, disruptive people staying up all night, thinking everyone else should enjoy my favorite music with me. 

Now I just want people to speak softly in halls, not play their phones on speaker in public areas and not smoke on their balcony next to mine.

I love kids, but not en-mass, not screaming and running around.

Agreed, crime rates do vary by season, but as previous poster indicated, it's more about the opportunity to get out rather than the temp itself. FOR INSTANCE, When your party size is limited to he size of your house rather than the size of your yard, the amount of disruption is limited accordingly.

[DeniseTr]

1 minute ago, sanger727 said:

 

When I worked at a restaurant we all had to take TIPS training.  That is literally what they teach.  How to decide when someone is too inebriated to serve.  No doubt cruise lines offer similar training. Yes, it is always on the server/bartender to determine to cut someone off. 

 

Ohio Alcohol Seller & Bartender Online Course | TIPS (gettips.com)

 

Someone can easily have more than 15 drinks in a day on a cruise ship.  They can get off in port and drink all day and then come back and have 5 more and be too inebriated to serve.  A set number of drinks is not good policy to determine when to cut someone off.

The threshold is different (maybe shouldn't be) in a floating hotel where the person can't drive. Agreed, body weight and individual tolerances mean that a catch-all of 15/day is pretty arbitrary. 

Technically, someone could have 15 in a day and not even be impaired if they pace one per hour.

[ledges1]

A simple search of the internet does seem to indicate that heat can increase aggression and violent crimes. Too many supporting research articles to quote on this site. Add 15 cold beers in the Caribbean and a fight might breakout.

[StephPS79]

1 hour ago, ledges1 said:

A simple search of the internet does seem to indicate that heat can increase aggression and violent crimes. Too many supporting research articles to quote on this site. Add 15 cold beers in the Caribbean and a fight might breakout.

 

This has been studied extensively.  Yes, heat makes people irritable.

[jeblack1]

On 8/28/2024 at 9:34 AM, ohioNCLcruiser said:

 

 

The awful:

 

Carnival feels like they have two brands within one based on the sailing. This cruise the kids and crowds were completely out of control. The worst I have ever experienced, including my five years working onboard ships. They completely took over areas, would block entire stairwells and not allow people to pass, screaming and yelling knocking on people’s cabin doors at 2, 3 and 4 am. Security had zero control of the situation and didn’t even bother enforcing curfew.

 

The other issue was we had multiple, and I mean multiple, fights happen onboard. The last night of the cruise a guest attacked another with a knife and they had to do a “Code Charlie” where even the staff said they have never seen the Staff Captain running so fast through the deck 5 promenade with security like that before. I left the Magic on Saturday and boarded the Horizon on Sunday and night 1 there was already a passenger with his face completely covered in dripping blood from being beat up.

 

I honestly don’t know what Carnival has to do to take control of these situations, but it is getting out of hand. At the Diamond gathering and debark area so many were saying they are just about done with Carnival. If it wasn’t for a few fantastic crew members I love cruising with, I would probably move on. No cheap deal is worth dealing with that. I almost feel like Carnival needs to rebrand their summer and booze cruise division to a different name lol.

 

 

I have never seen a fight onboard the ships, but I also don't hang out at the bars, serenity deck and up for gym and breakfast at 6:30, then bed by 10.   I get annoyed when the 21-25 year old's come up to serenity and act like it is their apartment pool area with their own music.  I hear the serenity music at just the right volume, their music and then the midship pool / party music.  So annoying. Feel like an old man (42).   We also cruise in the summer usually on an 8 day cruise and have found none of this to be an issue.   I do see the groups of teens running around the ship, but I also see them in similar fashion around any popular vacation areas.  I know the fights happen, just disappointed I never get to see them.  Fights on the subway in NYC however are never disappointing.  Maybe I should try HAL.

 

Do I need to stay awake to see all of this action?  (Sarcasm there).

[bg2310]

4 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

Crime rates don't go up in the summer because it's hot.  Crime rates go up in the summer because 1. schools are out so more juveniles with nothing to do and 2. people spend more time outside which can lead to more conflicts.

 

This is a bit like saying that flu season spikes because it's cold.  Flu season spikes because when it's cold, people spend more time in confined spaces. 

Where did I say crime rates go up because it's hot? I said it's correlated. Reading is fundamental!

 

Correlation =/= causation.

 

Temperature is absolutely part of the equation, doesn't mean it's the cause or only factor.

 

Ice cream consumption also peaks in summer months when crime is high. Does that mean crime goes up because of ice cream? Nope. 

[aborgman]

4 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

Crime rates don't go up in the summer because it's hot.  Crime rates go up in the summer because 1. schools are out so more juveniles with nothing to do and 2. people spend more time outside which can lead to more conflicts.

 

This is a bit like saying that flu season spikes because it's cold.  Flu season spikes because when it's cold, people spend more time in confined spaces. 

 

Crime rates don't go up in the summer ONLY because it's hot. 

 

But:

 

1) ADULT crime rates go up in the summer.

2) Crime rates in the same city, during the same time of year, are higher when temperatures are higher. Higher than average temps lead to higher than average crime rates, and lower than average temps lead to lower than average crime rates.

3) The effect of warmth increasing crime is LARGER during the winter.

 

 

“Analysis revealed that temperature volatility is significantly associated with the incidence of violence, with unexpectedly warmer days linked to increases in robbery and homicide, and cooler temperatures showing the opposite trend,” Thomas said. “These associations were particularly strong in winter"

 

 

[aborgman]

2 hours ago, DeniseTr said:

The threshold is different (maybe shouldn't be) in a floating hotel where the person can't drive.

 

Not a single US dram shop law (the laws that punish for over serving) care one bit about driving.

 

Over serving violates the law whether they're going to drive, whether they're not going to drive, or even if they can't drive.

[sanger727]

3 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

Crime rates don't go up in the summer ONLY because it's hot. 

 

But:

 

1) ADULT crime rates go up in the summer.

2) Crime rates in the same city, during the same time of year, are higher when temperatures are higher. Higher than average temps lead to higher than average crime rates, and lower than average temps lead to lower than average crime rates.

3) The effect of warmth increasing crime is LARGER during the winter.

 

 

“Analysis revealed that temperature volatility is significantly associated with the incidence of violence, with unexpectedly warmer days linked to increases in robbery and homicide, and cooler temperatures showing the opposite trend,” Thomas said. “These associations were particularly strong in winter"

 

 

 

And why do you think the associations are particularly strong in the winter?  Because a warmer than normal day will bring people outside.  There are so many societal factors that affect crime rates, it's impossible to narrow it down to one reason.  

Edited September 4 by sanger727

[DeniseTr]

Just now, aborgman said:

 

Not a single US dram shop law (the laws that punish for over serving) care one bit about driving.

 

Over serving violates the law whether they're going to drive, whether they're not going to drive, or even if they can't drive.

Unless the cruise ship is registered in the U.S. (very few are), US law may or may not apply to any given situation. For instance labor laws, the number of hours the crew works on a cruise ship is crazy, punishing even, but they get away with it because US labor laws don't apply.

[aborgman]

Just now, sanger727 said:

 

And why do you think the associations are particularly strong in the winter?  Because an average than normal day will bring people outside.  There are so many societal factors that affect crime rates, it's impossible to narrow it down to one reason.  

 

If heat causes people to spend more time outside, and people spending more time outside causes increased crime - heat IS causative.

 

At that point we've gone beyond mere correlation to causation - what you are positing is specifically known as "indirect causal relationship".

[sanger727]

1 minute ago, DeniseTr said:

Unless the cruise ship is registered in the U.S. (very few are), US law may or may not apply to any given situation. For instance labor laws, the number of hours the crew works on a cruise ship is crazy, punishing even, but they get away with it because US labor laws don't apply.

 

laws are inconsequential here.  It's liability.  For when someone falls of the ship, victimizes someone else, or get seriously injured.  If the person is extremely intoxicated, Carnival will be sued.  Whether it's their fault or not.

[bg2310]

17 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

And why do you think the associations are particularly strong in the winter?  Because a warmer than normal day will bring people outside.  There are so many societal factors that affect crime rates, it's impossible to narrow it down to one reason.  

Exactly. Hence, temperature is one of those factors. Where is it being said it's the sole factor or the cause of it? I didn't say that. Some people should truly check their lack of reading comprehension, because it shows.

 

It's foolish to suggest temperature doesn't play a role when we know it does, there are endless studies that show higher temperatures and heat affect mood, flare emotions, etc.

 

To suggest heat then doesn't impact crime rates is silly. That doesn't mean it's the only factor at play, or that it's necessarily causing higher crime rates. But it's absolutely a part of the equation, wherein multiple factors interact to create the dynamic.

 

That's literally all that's being said, and some of you are acting as if hell has frozen over to suggest heat affects mood and crime. Smh 😅

Edited September 4 by bg2310

[sanger727]

4 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

If heat causes people to spend more time outside, and people spending more time outside causes increased crime - heat IS causative.

 

At that point we've gone beyond mere correlation to causation - what you are positing is specifically known as "indirect causal relationship".

 

Fine.  All I took issue with was the idea that heat causes crime and therefore warm weather cruises have more fights.  If you want to take that literally, then fights should be happening in the middle of the day on deck instead of in the evening in bars.  Warm weather cruises have a lot more things that lead to fights than warm weather. They are cheaper than nearly any other destination and they are easier to get to without flights than other destinations.  That impact on clientele is a large factor.

[aborgman]

1 minute ago, DeniseTr said:

Unless the cruise ship is registered in the U.S. (very few are), US law may or may not apply to any given situation. For instance labor laws, the number of hours the crew works on a cruise ship is crazy, punishing even, but they get away with it because US labor laws don't apply.

 

I was just pointing out that driving is completely irrelevant as to whether you have illegally over served.

 

US law largely doesn't apply - but general maritime law does and they are subject to it in US courts.

 Hall v. Royal Caribbean Cruises (2004) is the precedent - cruise lines can be held liable for over-serving their passengers to the point of intoxication if they sustain injuries caused by their alcohol-related impairment, because the cruise line has an established duty to exercise reasonable care for the safety of its passengers.

[sanger727]

3 minutes ago, bg2310 said:

Exactly. Hence, temperature is one of those factors. Where is it being said it's the sole factor or the cause of it? No one said that. Some people should truly check their lack of reading comprehension, because it shows.

 

 

I spent the last 6 months in an intensive graduate school criminal justice program focused on research.  I don't lack reading comprehension.  Exactness matters when you are discussing causation.  And I can tell you the history of criminal justice programs and a lot of the current research.  And we did not spend 1 minute in that program discussing weather.

Edited September 4 by sanger727

[aborgman]

1 minute ago, sanger727 said:

 

Fine.  All I took issue with was the idea that heat causes crime

 

...but then you specifically said:

 

Heat causes people to go outside causes people to commit more crime.

 

If heat causes people to go outside causes people to commit more crime - that IS heat causing crime. Indirect causes are still causes.

[DeniseTr]

How do you unfollow a thread? This topic devolved quickly and keeps getting more annoying.