definition of formal wear for women

[momofmeg]

Now you've gone and done it. How can we go from this definition to the next tier which is informal and not require a jacket and tie for the men and still a dress for the ladies and then Resort casual - Jacket without a tie and a paliner dress fro the ladies.

 

What will we call the general attire for the masses that are cruising these days? certainly not any of the above. So we now need a new disignation.

 

Any ideas?

 

which line gives this definition? I have been on Carnival, Royal Caribbean,HAL, Disney. Princess and HAL. this was not the definition given in the litle daily paper under the section where it told what night it was for dinner.

 

 

Personally I always felt formal night was a misnomer. Becuase it was NOT truly formal, more what I woudl call semi formal.

[cruisemom42]

Getting back to the OPs question, my own definition of formal would include short cocktail dresses as well as long gowns for women. However, I did not feel that the PARTICULAR dress in question was actually a cocktail dress. I have nothing to go by but my own "feeling" and I certainly wouldn't look askance at anyone wearing this dress on formal night -- far from it. But in my own mind, I wouldn't see that dress in a store and think "aha....a cocktail dress."

[dottedline]

Ok, I never meant to start an argument in my thread. And actually, this thread was started because I wanted to know where the people that have such opinions on what is acceptable as formal got their definitions of formal. I know my dress will be fine, and I am very much looking forward to formal evening. Oh and for those people asking, I'll be sailing with Princess. And I do appreciate all the feedback I got on my original thread about the dress, I felt people were being honest in a nice way.

 

The point I wanted to make with this post is that some people think formal means something specific, when in actuallity(?sp) it is only their opinion. And that is fine to have that opinion, but they need to stop passing it off as if it is fact, and say something like "I don't think it is formal enough" rather than "it is not formal". News flash to everyone, formal does not mean the same thing it did 50 years ago, and there is nothing wrong with that. Things change in life, and fashion by all means is one of the biggest changers of all. Now, do not get me wrong, I am not trying to say jeans are formal today or anything like that. And I'm also not trying to say that there isn't a definition for formal, obviously there is more than one definition, because different people have googled it and found different definitions. (btw, here is the link to the site I got my info off of incase some people thought I was making it up http://fashion.about.com/cs/glossary/a/partydefinition.htm ) I also looked it up in my Amy Venderbilt Complete Book of Etiquette and here is what it says: "Formal: In some conservative parts of the country "Formal" on an invitation may still mean a floor-length dress for women. But in most regioins it now means a dress or attractive evening suit of any length or style. Tuxedo pants, fancy culottes, or pajama-style trousers are also acceptable in most sophisticated settings."

 

I guess in a lot of ways I started this post to make a point, and I'm not sure if I accomplished that or not. And it probably doesn't matter, because no matter what one person says, another person probably isn't going to change their mind. My point was: there are many styles of formal, what is important is that people do the best they can to make themselves look the best they can. So anyway, I am going to end my posting with some ranting and raving and some points I want to make:

 

First of all, to the people that wear jeans in the dining room, especially on formal night, come on, you know the rules, you know jeans aren't allowed, and it isn't nice to a host to purposely disobey them.

 

And to the people who say the people wearing jeans ruins your cruise, well good, if you are so snobby that you are going to let what someone else is wearing ruin your time, you deserve to have it ruined. ( I know that was mean, but I just felt like I had to say it)

 

May I sit with you at dinner? :D I was having the same thoughts, that I'd never let what someone else wore ruin my night. Why let someone have such control over your own emotions and feelings? You're simply giving them power to make you miserable if you allow that.

 

I checked on RCCL's website, and it specifies that formal attire is Coctail dress. Perhaps the cruiseline should change their designations.

[BlueHerons]

I got my information from my mother who got it from her mother.

 

My mother is a stickler for protocol and I certainly have passed the information to my stepdaughters.

 

To me, wearing a cocktail dress to a black tie event is akin to sending out Thank You notes with the work Thank You on the front of the card.

[cruisemom42]

Ok, first let me say that I am not by any means a fashion expert. I'm a stay at home mom who lives in jeans or shorts, depending on the weather. But let me also say that I'm a responsible adult and when I go places I adhere to the dress code. I don't want to start a fight in this thread, I am just interested in finding out what is the definition of formal wear for women. There was a thread on here quite a while back about the definition of formal wear for men, but in my opinion that is easier to answer than it is for women. I posted a dress a few days ago asking people's opinion, and I got a lot of "Well, it isn't formal, but it will do" kind of answers. I'm guessing they said it wasn't formal because it isn't long. It is version of the LBD, it is beaded on top, not just a plain dress. So I did a google search for the definition, and what I came up with is that formal wear for woman is considered either a long dress, dressy two piece, or a coctail dress (which I am assuming means fancy, shorter dress). Formal for women is the same as black tie. According to what I read, white tie means long dress, but that is not what is considered formal wear, that is considered ultra formal wear (not my words, got it off the description). Anyway, so after this long explanation, I am basically asking why the dress I picked a lot of people said isn't considered formal. I thought it was a coctail dress (maybe I'm wrong on that, like I said I'm no expert), and according to the definition of formal attire, a coctail dress is formal attire for women. Just interested in what people's definition is, and where they came up with that definition. Like I stated earlier, I don't want this to get into what is ok and not to wear on formal night, I just want to know where people get their definition of formal. Here is the dress I was talking about:

 

 

 

A couple of other points I wanted to make earlier but was in a hurry.

 

First, the fact that the dress is pictured being worn at a daytime, outdoor event would suggest to me that it's not formal.

 

Second, rather than trying to define "formal" overall, I suggest you go with what is situationally appropriate. As others have pointed out, most cruise lines pretty clearly state what they consider appropriate for a formal evening. If you are within their guidelines, I think that's all anyone could ask.

 

My own philosophy is that if I'm ever unsure, I err on the side of being more rather than less dressed up, as I'm one of those (apparently rare) people that would not want to cause offense to others.

[BasenjiMom]

I received my docs a few days ago, will be on HAL's Veendam, Alaskan cruise.

In the back of one of the brochures are photos of the formal wear available for rent, both men's and women's.

Not at all my style, but they offer to the women:

long black crepe skirt

long black velvet skirt

a gold satin blouse

a 'glitter' blouse, looks to be a teal color

and a sleeveless black velvet top.

 

they are very plain, thought the skirt is long.

Oh, the shoes they offer are UGLY.

 

I hope my luggage is not lost, for I would probably skip formal night rather then rent one of these ensembles. Sorry HAL I know you have to have something that will work for everyone.

[jp2001]

I got my information from my mother who got it from her mother.

 

My mother is a stickler for protocol and I certainly have passed the information to my stepdaughters.

 

To me, wearing a cocktail dress to a black tie event is akin to sending out Thank You notes with the work Thank You on the front of the card.

 

I would simply like to remind you that massmarket cruise lines formal dress code clearly states cocktail dresses as appropriate for formal nights. You would probably prefer, as many others on this board, to have white tie or strick black tie nights but it's not what cruiselines are expecting. Then, I don't think the passengers should expect it from other passengers either.

JMHO.

[livelife]

Oh my goodness Im going to have to just go NAKED:D that will solve all my worries and it will scare everyone so badly that my spouse and I will have the whole dining area to ourselves, but I promise I will wear my pretty black sandals with rhinestones:) " Good Lord that's and aweful image of me sitting in my wheelchair naked with pretty shoes,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha. Just to make you all laugh, be happy you are alive and well enough to enjoy your cruise. I have a huge hump on my spine (tumor) I have a plate that clearly shows from the right side of hairline down to over most of my eyebrow, a scar that runs down to upper part of spine, and scar that runs down the middle of my back. I have scoliatic chestwall and right clavical and rib sticks out. Covered in even the best of my wear I !!! will still know what is under that dress and what shows and does not and what is under my bangs trying to cover the plate over front part of me head and in the back what is covering part of my skull that is gone for good. When I drop my glass of champagne or juice or coffee I will laugh and smile knowing there is nothing I can do about it, when I have to ask what day it is or where I am at that moment I will feel lost in my brain damage.

 

BUT most important I will know I am lovley for all the things I bring to that dining table. " My smile, my compassion, my straightforward self, I will proudly hold my 89 pounds as straight as I can when one has 2 torn rotators and a huge tumor on upper spine, and I will laugh at jokes and when I choke from my severe Dysphagia I will say" excuse me it cannot be helped but again I will smile and say how lovley everyone around me looks and hope they feel the same, not for what I am wearing but for seeing WHO I am as I will them.

 

Class comes in many forms, if you have the wit and personality to make good company, and caring, with good humor and your own style and not making totally ignorant comments, money means nothing. Holding ones head high with charming smile and showing an interest in ANOTHER persons world is CLASS:) .

 

Please enjoy your day today. I spent the other day crying about going on my cruise because of how I look in my clothes compared to the average world, how my face would appear , would anyone notice my plate or the palsy that can come to my face, would they see my pretty shoes and notice how nice my dresses and clothes look, or would they look past it all and see nothing but a very ill woman as many do. I hope not but maybe we will be lucky and be seated with couples who are kind with class.

 

Thats about the only time you will see me on my soapbox.

 

Im a good person and it DOES show in many ways and I know I will look GREAT in my clothes because of one thing" MY SMILE:D . and SO will all of you.

 

Relax,enjoy life.

LIVELIFE JO

[BlueHerons]

I would simply like to remind you that massmarket cruise lines formal dress code clearly states cocktail dresses as appropriate for formal nights. You would probably prefer, as many others on this board, to have white tie or strick black tie nights but it's not what cruiselines are expecting. Then, I don't think the passengers should expect it from other passengers either.

JMHO.

 

Thank you for taking the time to remind me what the massmarket cruise lines formal dress code clearly states but I would prefer to NOT have formal nights on board. I don't know where you thought I would prefer strict black or white tie nights on board.

 

White tie on a cruise ship would be excessive.

 

My post is what White tie, black tie, and cocktail attire is comprised of in the world I live in.

[VaTraveler]

Jo, here is one person who would be honored to sit with you anytime, anywhere. And thanks for putting things in perspective. How very carried away we can get with petty things!!

[jp2001]

Thank you for taking the time to remind me what the massmarket cruise lines formal dress code clearly states but I would prefer to NOT have formal nights on board. I don't know where you thought I would prefer strict black or white tie nights on board.

 

White tie on a cruise ship would be excessive.

 

My post is what White tie, black tie, and cocktail attire is comprised of in the world I live in.

 

Hello BlueHerons,

Sorry, I totally misunderstood your post I guess, I thought you were saying cocktail dress are not appropriate at black tie events (probably the thank you note thing that got me lost because english is not my 1st language, I apologize).

What I wanted to do is to inform the people who say cruiseships formal nights should be floor-length gown only that it was not what cruiselines ask from us.

Very sorry again (I still don't understand the reference to the thank you note I guess).

[jp2001]

Jo, here is one person who would be honored to sit with you anytime, anywhere. And thanks for putting things in perspective. How very carried away we can get with petty things!!

 

So true.

 

I am sure your tablemates will realize right away what a great woman you are!

[momofmeg]

Hello BlueHerons,

Sorry, I totally misunderstood your post I guess, I thought you were saying cocktail dress are not appropriate at black tie events (probably the thank you note thing that got me lost because english is not my 1st language, I apologize).

What I wanted to do is to inform the people who say cruiseships formal nights should be floor-length gown only that it was not what cruiselines ask from us.

Very sorry again (I still don't understand the reference to the thank you note I guess).

 

She was being sarcastic I think but meant no offense. I hope you understand what I mean by sarcastic. I wish I knew french so I could say this nicely and you understand and will not feel offense.

 

The problem with the definition of true formal wear and formal nights and what is acceptable on cruiseships are really two very differant things.

 

I really think calling this formal night on a cruiseship is misleading-because as was posted if it was truly formal that would mean women wearing evening gowns only and tuxes or dinner jackets for men.

 

Cocktail dresses are acceptable on every line I have been on- also the Little Black Dress, by that I mean, a black dress that can be dressed up or down and the OP's dress would qualify for that. Most women have one. That way you are ready for a funeral with very subdued if any jewelry ofcourse-but you can also use it for a more formal affair if you dress it up with sparkly jewelry.

[BlueHerons]

Hello BlueHerons,

Sorry, I totally misunderstood your post I guess, I thought you were saying cocktail dress are not appropriate at black tie events (probably the thank you note thing that got me lost because english is not my 1st language, I apologize).

What I wanted to do is to inform the people who say cruiseships formal nights should be floor-length gown only that it was not what cruiselines ask from us.

Very sorry again (I still don't understand the reference to the thank you note I guess).

 

No, please don't apologize. The original poster in another post asked if her dress was formal. I replied that no, it was not but I stated it would be appropriate for formal night on the cruise.

 

On this post she asked what constituted formal attire and I replied.

 

I think the cruise line's definition of formal would be my definition of semi formal or cocktail attire.

 

In all honesty, I've attended so many formal events that I really dislike having to do so.

 

For English not being your first langauge, you have an incredible grasp of the language!

[SantaAna,CA]

I don't think you have to wear a floor length gown on formal night. There are some cruise lines dressier than others....and I take the opportunity to dress up because I like to.

 

I was on the Seabourn "Legend" in April to the Caribbean and, since I was on for two weeks, there were four formal nights. This is what I wore: (1) Tadashi two-piece; bronze taffeta top and matching skirt (floor length), (2) three-quarter sleeve black top with portrait neckline and a floor length grey taffeta skirt that had black velvet applique, (3) black chiffon skirt, knee length, with a fitted pewter and black beaded top and (4) a lovely Anne Klein suit; pewter satin jacket with a black lace overlay, and a black lace knee-length skirt. They were fine, more than fine, they were perfect!

 

A double strand of pearls with your pretty black dress would look spectacular. I think it's lovely and would suit the occasion fine.

 

Jane :)

[happysinglemom]

Ok, I never meant to start an argument in my thread. And actually, this thread was started because I wanted to know where the people that have such opinions on what is acceptable as formal got their definitions of formal. I know my dress will be fine, and I am very much looking forward to formal evening.

 

Actually I think you did. :D

 

And actually, this thread was started because I wanted to know where the people that have such opinions on what is acceptable as formal got their definitions of formal. I know my dress will be fine, and I am very much looking forward to formal evening,

 

My definition does not come from a book, or a website. It comes from my childhood raising. Formal means the most elegant of attire. Tux/long gown. I don't need to look anything up.

 

And to the people who say the people wearing jeans ruins your cruise, well good, if you are so snobby that you are going to let what someone else is wearing ruin your time, you deserve to have it ruined. ( I know that was mean, but I just felt like I had to say it)

 

I haven't seen where anyone has said that. If you want to wear your own definition, then do so and stop trying to imply that others perceptions somehow make them wrong. Wear what you please and get over it. Good grief.

[mumom95]

Actually I think you did. :D .

 

Think what you want, everyone has that right.

 

My definition does not come from a book, or a website. It comes from my childhood raising. Formal means the most elegant of attire. Tux/long gown. I don't need to look anything up..

 

Just because you were raised a certain way, doesn't mean you were raised correctly. A couple hundred years ago many people were raised to believe slavery was ok, or that women shouldn't have the right to vote, and I think we'd all agree we wouldn't raise our kids today to believe that.

 

I haven't seen where anyone has said that. If you want to wear your own definition, then do so and stop trying to imply that others perceptions somehow make them wrong. Wear what you please and get over it. Good grief.

 

Well, then you haven't looked around much. There have been many, many threads on this board with people commenting about how the way certain people are dressed has ruined their evening. And this thread had nothing to do with what I wanted to wear, I asked a question on where people got their definition of formal. And I certainly never meant to imply that what other people thought was wrong. If anything, I was trying to make the point that nobody's definition of formal is wrong, because there are many definitions out there.

[Cats' slave]

Yay to Livelife-Jo! We need to hear your perspective more often. Way to go! You are welcome at our table and we will see your incredible beauty shining through everything. Can you see me standing and clapping for you and your wonderful husband?

 

Oh and please wear your new clothes. I can't stand to eat with naked people.

[happysinglemom]

Just because you were raised a certain way, doesn't mean you were raised correctly.

 

And you weren't looking for an argument? Right. ;)

[debbie43]

Mumom, speaking from experience, your dress will be fine for formal night. I wore almost a carbon copy of the same exact dress with a v-cut neck (for smart casual night), but I can assure you - on formal night you will see all types of gowns and all types of dresses, to include skirts from the younger crowd, to people who said "no way, I'm on vacation" and simply stayed in their shorts (not in the dining room though). People are on vacation and they are going to wear what they want to wear. Don't let anyone get you caught up in definitions of what should be what. Formal night is not really a "black tie" event. Most guys are in plain business suits, with a few tuxes mixed in. Women are the ones who really take it over the top. You will be fine with your dress. Formal night is the biggest night for photos. In my book, you should wear what you want to have your picture taken in to remember that particular night of your cruise. Have a great time!!

[Happy ks]

Getting back to the OPs question, my own definition of formal would include short cocktail dresses as well as long gowns for women. However, I did not feel that the PARTICULAR dress in question was actually a cocktail dress. I have nothing to go by but my own "feeling" and I certainly wouldn't look askance at anyone wearing this dress on formal night -- far from it. But in my own mind, I wouldn't see that dress in a store and think "aha....a cocktail dress."

 

Here's a llink to the dress in question:

 

http://www.chadwicks.com/product.aspx?PfId=84808&DeptId=8219&producttypeid=1

 

To see it in a larger photo may change a few minds. The top of the dress is beaded, the only difference between this dress and a longer version, which some of you would deem appropriate, is about 12 inches of fabric. Although the dress is photographed in a daylight setting, it is not what I would wear to an afternoon tea or wedding. It is far too dressy for that type of venue and would be appropriate for an evening event.

 

That some insist formal is only floor length dresses, many beautiful dresses are shorter in length. I have worn shorter dresses for formal nights and do not feel one bit out of place. I have, however, seen women wear long cotton floral dresses, which I would not deem formal in the least. By my own definition formal is not just length, it is also fabric, cut and style.

 

Is it formal, as in Oscar night, or a formal dinner at the White House, no, but for a cruise ship on a main stream line, it is perfect. She will fit right in in this dress, contrary to what a lot of people have posted here.

 

I'll add that I hardly see any fashion models on cruise ships, mostly just regular people wanting to have a bit of fun. While I dress appropriately for every evening and probably dress up more than most on casual nights, I'm not concerened with what clothes others are wearing. I don't stare or make remarks (OK, maybe when I come back here :p ). I really don't pay all that much attention to those who aren't dressed well. I'm not impressed with defiance, I usually ignore it. But we do get annoyed with those who are rude enough to make remarks in public with things they don't like about other pax.

 

There are some here who might take a lesson from the staff and crew onboard cruise ships and try to be a bit more gracious and accepting of those who don't look exactly like how you would like everyone else to be.

[tumeroll]

Here's a llink to the dress in question:

 

http://www.chadwicks.com/product.aspx?PfId=84808&DeptId=8219&producttypeid=1

 

There are some here who might take a lesson from the staff and crew onboard cruise ships and try to be a bit more gracious and accepting of those who don't look exactly like how you would like everyone else to be.

 

While the crew from the captain on down to the lowest member may smile and be gracious to you in public, I am certain that many passengers would be horrified by what these people say in private about how absolutely low class they dress and act. Remember serving the public is a career profession to many of the staff and they take it as a personal insult when the public doesn't think well enough of themselves or the staff to honor the most basic of dress and behavior codes.

[desperatehousewife]

 

First, the fact that the dress is pictured being worn at a daytime, outdoor event would suggest to me that it's not formal.

 

I too thought something along those lines but in the other direction.

My original thought was that the photographer chose a bad setting for the dress itself.

I think it is WRONG for a daytime, outdoor setting, more appropriate for an evening setting much like the one in question ( Notice, I said more appropriate, not PERFECT.)

 

Try and imagine this same dress shown to us on a model that had a background to be more formal. I, then, agree with the posters who are focusing on the fabric, beads and such. Although this dress does not SCREAM formal, it does not SCREAM informal to me either.

 

I do believe some opinions have just been outright uptight and pretentious.

Maybe, it could be an age factor? I have noticed some strong opinions have come from a much older genertion than the OP?

 

That all being said, wear your dress, it is very pretty and perfectly acceptable IMO.

 

If, there are those out there who would be saying :

(In a Colin Cowie drawl)

" Dawling... just looook at what that WOMAN chose to wear to dine with us this most beautiful evening....Her dress, although fine in material is maybe a few inches shy of the REQUIRED hemline!! (snicker and a roll of the eyes) Ohhhh dawling ... I never....

 

Well, in my opinion ....you then have bigger issue than your considered fashion faux pauxs.;)

[VaTraveler]

I too thought something along those lines but in the other direction.

My original thought was that the photographer chose a bad setting for the dress itself.

I think it is WRONG for a daytime, outdoor setting, more appropriate for an evening setting much like the one in question ( Notice, I said more appropriate, not PERFECT.)

 

Try and imagine this same dress shown to us on a model that had a background to be more formal. I, then, agree with the posters who are focusing on the fabric, beads and such. Although this dress does not SCREAM formal, it does not SCREAM informal to me either.

 

I do believe some opinions have just been outright uptight and pretentious.

Maybe, it could be an age factor? I have noticed some strong opinions have come from a much older genertion than the OP?

 

That all being said, wear your dress, it is very pretty and perfectly acceptable IMO.

 

If, there are those out there who would be saying :

(In a Colin Cowie drawl)

" Dawling... just looook at what that WOMAN chose to wear to dine with us this most beautiful evening....Her dress, although fine in material is maybe a few inches shy of the REQUIRED hemline!! (snicker and a roll of the eyes) Ohhhh dawling ... I never....

 

Well, in my opinion ....you then have bigger issue than your considered fashion faux pauxs.;)

 

:D :D :D :D

I love everything you said. For the record, though, some of us are in the older generation but choose to keep up with the times.

[SunnyFL]

I think the dress is great! I love the chiffon overskirt and flowing line. I don't know what is considered right or wrong (or who the "powers that be" are that make the rules), but I too am looking for a "little black cocktail dress" to wear on Millenium 8/18/06 Mediterranean cruise. I figure with the right jewelry and shoes, I can look as "formal" as anyone. Wear the dress!

 

And, thank you, Jo, for the reality check.

 

Happy cruising!