Anniversary Celebration....what do you think?

[RevNeal]

[QUOTE]Its not whether cheating about a cake (and yes - it is INDEED cheating) is silly.[/QUOTE]

Would you allow me to ask a question? How is this cheating? I understand that you've said that it is, but I don't see how that is anything more than your opinion. I'm not so sure that it [i]is[/i] cheating to celebrate such an occasion on a different day.

For instance, my birthday this year was on a Sunday. Because I was busy on Sunday, my family didn't celebrate by birthday with dinner and a cake until Monday evening. Was that cheating?

[kryos]

[quote name='sail7seas']DH and I will be celebrating our 35th Anniversary (assuming we make it) about 3 1/2 weeks after we return from our upcoming Maasdam cruise.

While it will not technically yet be our anniversary while we are aboard, I am considering this to be our celebration and as such, would love to have a small cake "to cut".

Seeing as "technically speaking" we will not be aboard on the actual date.....would you call that [i]Cheating?[/i][/QUOTE]
Hell, no, it's not cheating. The 35th is a big accomplishment. I say you should definitely plan on celebrating it onboard!

Blue skies and my best wishes for at least 35 more!

--rita

[gizmo]

[quote name='kryos']Hell, no, it's not cheating. The 35th is a big accomplishment. I say you should definitely plan on celebrating it onboard!
[/QUOTE]
I don't see what the 35th has to do with it. [b]Everybody[/b] has something to celebrate.

[Roadwork]

I believe I can see superstein's points.

He feels cheating is cheating and ordering the cake falls into cheating.

His second point is there are some that feel bringing booze on board is wrong and is cheating the cruise line out of money, but ordering the cake isn't.
Those that do this, appear to have double standards.

Superstein, please correct me if I am wrong.

There are others that feel the cake is "free" so this does not fall into the cheating senario.

I liked Gizmo's earlier post:D
[quote]Here is something to think about. Every pax on a cruise could have something to celebrate in a given year. Everyone has a birthday. If every pax on a given cruise decides to celebrate their birthday while on their cruise, I wonder what the chef would think if he had 1200 requests for birthday cakes!:)

Instead of the Baked Alaska maybe they would have a Parade of Birthday Cakes! [/quote]

[RevNeal]

Roadwork,

I see his point too ... but I'm not so sure his initial premise is valid.

[QUOTE]He feels cheating is cheating and ordering the cake falls into cheating.[/QUOTE]

This is the point where I'm not so sure that I agree. I don't see how it's cheating to celebrate an Anniversary at a time/day other than the actual, specific date. If one were celebrating it two, three, or four times in one year ... yes, I can see how [i]that[/i] might well constitute cheating; but I don't perceive such to be the case here. From what S7S said:

[QUOTE]I am considering this to be our celebration....[/QUOTE]

It would appear that she and her husband are going to celebrate their anniversary while on this cruise, rather than on the actual date. This is hardly "cheating," it's just celebrating at a different time.

[QUOTE]His second point is there are some that feel bringing booze on board is wrong and is cheating the cruise line out of money, but ordering the cake isn't.
Those that do this, appear to have double standards.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. If someone was decrying breaking the rules by bringing liquor aboard while, at the same time, flagrantly flaunting the regulations in some other way -- for instance, by bringing aboard their pussy cat and hiding her in their cabin -- they would, indeed, be guilty of a double standard. As regards cruise line regulations, this matter is one of apples and oranges: it is against HAL policy to bring liquor onboard for consumption in one's cabin; as far as I know, HAL doesn't have any policies against holding celebrations on days other than the specific date in question. Hence, there really is no equality between the two.

Setting aside the question of policies, however, the simple fact remains that it hasn't been established -- other than by fiat -- that celebrating an Anniversary (or birthday, or whatever) on a day other than the exact historic date constitutes "cheating." Unless some justification for this adjudication can be presented, I'm not willing to concede that it is "cheating." And, hence, in my opinion there really is no double standard.

Allow me to put it this way: If someone is celebrating a wedding anniversary on a day other than the actual date, with no plans to celebrate it again that year on the exact (or any other) date, how is it cheating for them to ask for a cake to enhance their celebration? Indeed, how is it cheating if they're paying the line for one of the "celebration packages" to go along with it?

[QUOTE]There are others that feel the cake is "free" so this does not fall into the cheating senario.[/QUOTE]

Frankly, I don't think the cake is really "free" -- and, even if it were, I don't see how that point applies to this situation. The issue is one of moral honesty and ethical behavior. If it is cheating to celebrate any kind of anniversary on a date other than the specific, historic date, then it doesn't even matter if the couple pays for the cake outright ... it's still "cheating" because the celebration doesn't fall on the actual date in question. I don't agree with this reasoning, but it is the reasoning which has been proposed.

As for Gizmo's suggestion regarding a "Parade of the Birthday Cakes" ... hey, I'm all for [i]that![/i] Bring 'em on!

[Roadwork]

RevNeal,

 

You certainly make some valid points also.

 

You are correct in stating Hal does not have any policies regarding ordering cakes to celebrate something.

 

Allow me to put it this way: If someone is celebrating a wedding anniversary on a day other than the actual date, with no plans to celebrate it again that year on the exact (or any other) date, how is it cheating for them to ask for a cake to enhance their celebration? Indeed, how is it cheating if they're paying the line for one of the "celebration packages" to go along with it?

Got me.

 

 

The issue is one of moral honesty and ethical behavior. If it is cheating to celebrate any kind of anniversary on a date other than the specific, historic date, then it doesn't even matter if the couple pays for the cake outright ... it's still "cheating" because the celebration doesn't fall on the actual date in question. I don't agree with this reasoning, but it is the reasoning which has been proposed.

I see what you are saying here also. The issue really is moral honesty and ethical behavior.

Is it really cheating? I don't know. You can look at it from a veiw point of it can only be black or white, or leave room for a gray area.

 

What I have not figured out is why the question was asked in the first place.

Why would somebody care what anyone would think about ordering the cake?

[lknick]

Heck, let your husband order the cake. Since when can a man remember any important date?

[superstein61]

Would you allow me to ask a question? How is this cheating? I understand that you've said that it is, but I don't see how that is anything more than your opinion. I'm not so sure that it is cheating to celebrate such an occasion on a different day.

 

For instance, my birthday this year was on a Sunday. Because I was busy on Sunday, my family didn't celebrate by birthday with dinner and a cake until Monday evening. Was that cheating?

 

Rev - everyone has something to celebrate.

 

Should I order a cake for my wife's birthday which was 3 weeks before our cruise?

 

How about if I order another one for my daughters birthday 5 weeks after our cruise?

 

Lets not forget about me - only 9 weeks before the cruise.

 

Oops - can't forget our anniversary - thats only 2o+ weeks before the cruise.

 

So what do I have - 4 cakes now and counting. I am sure I can find 3 more things to celebrate

 

You see - everyone has something to celebrate - and we can stretch it to cover anything. IMO, thats cheating. Unless your event is the week of the cruise - and you order cake the day of the event - I personally consider it cheating.

 

Otherwise - everyone should have special occassion cakes sent to their table every night of the week

[superstein61]

I believe I can see superstein's points.

 

He feels cheating is cheating and ordering the cake falls into cheating.

 

His second point is there are some that feel bringing booze on board is wrong and is cheating the cruise line out of money, but ordering the cake isn't.

Those that do this, appear to have double standards.

 

Superstein, please correct me if I am wrong.

 

There are others that feel the cake is "free" so this does not fall into the cheating senario.

 

I liked Gizmo's earlier post:D

 

Yes - Roadwork summarized it well for me. Thanks Roadwork.

[ASM]

I still don't see how we cheated by having a cake a week before our anniversary when we didn't even ask for it . Our HAL rep knew we were cruising in honor of our anniversary and offered it. If that is cheating, please explain how.

[Roadwork]

One point is a question of pure ethics. The word "cheating" is being used but in my mind "ethics" might be a better discription. So, "how is it cheating?"

 

This may go off topic, but lets look at it this way.

 

A person is entitled to 5 sick days a year. I am not referring to what companies call "personal days" but "sick" days. A person is not sick all year. How many people do you think still use those sick days because they feel they are entitled to take 5 days off and get paid for it? :) Is it ethical to do it? On the other hand why should others get paid days off and not you? I think the majority think they are entitled to it, sick or not sick.

 

The same argument can be used for the cake. You are entitled to get a cake for a celebration. Is it ethical to order a cake when the celebration date is not during your cruise? You still consider it a celebration and feel you are entitled to it.

 

In both cases people feel they are entitled to something and can justify it in their minds.

 

RevNeal had a good point that there were no "rules" about the cake. A company does have rules about the number of sick days but the example was not breaking the rules and exceeding the limit.

 

Please keep an open mind. There are million different ways of looking at this.

There are many good comments on this thread by Superstein, RevNeal and some others.

 

I don't think anyone really cares if someone orders the cake or not, except maybe in Gizmo's example where everyone on the ship decides to order a celebration cake. The poor chef would probably go beserk. Supestein also had a good example if his entire family ordered celebration cakes.

[ASM]

Ok, I follow you but in my case I did not order a cake. HAL offered it and we accepted. Was it unethical then to accept it? Remember I told HAL the actual date of my anniversary. I really believe this whole issue of cheating and ethics regarding sail7seas and her cake is not the same as breaking the rules ( thus cheating) regarding alcohol or anything else. HAL does not want its rules broken, I would assume. HAL does however encourage celebratory cakes prior to an actual celebration date. HMMMM!

[superstein61]

Ok, I follow you but in my case I did not order a cake. HAL offered it and we accepted. Was it unethical then to accept it? Remember I told HAL the actual date of my anniversary. I really believe this whole issue of cheating and ethics regarding sail7seas and her cake is not the same as breaking the rules ( thus cheating) regarding alcohol or anything else. HAL does not want its rules broken, I would assume. HAL does however encourage celebratory cakes prior to an actual celebration date. HMMMM!

 

1. Your anniversary was a week before. I am sure if it was 20 weeks before - HAL wouldn't have volunteered to do that.

 

2. There is a difference between HAL offerring and you asking

 

3. IMO Ethics are ethics, cheating is cheating - no matter how big or small the item is

[HeatherInFlorida]

Well, I see we're back at it again!!! Has anyone noticed, or did you even know, that several posts were removed from this thread some time ago? As a result you will see 3 or 4 posts in a row from me. That is because Superstein's answers were removed.

 

This has been a very hot issue and now it's been reborn. Superstein, good to see you:) . I think one cake ought to cover it for all your celebrations, but mostly that cake is for your wife because her birthday is the closest to the cruise.

 

When comparing the booze situation to the cake situation I hope everyone will remember that HAL does not charge extra for cake, but they do charge for alcohol. That is why they have a policy that we should not bring alcohol onboard.

 

But I'll betcha anything they won't mind if you bring your own cake!!!:D

[Roadwork]

Ok, I follow you but in my case I did not order a cake. HAL offered it and we accepted. Was it unethical then to accept it?

Nope, not in my opinion.

 

Thank you for making sense of my post.

[RevNeal]

So what do I have - 4 cakes now and counting. I am sure I can find 3 more things to celebrate

 

Your exercise in casuistry gave me a chuckle. It is witty while, at the same time, illustrating your point of view quite well. It also illustrates what I consider to be a flaw in your reasoning. You assume both intellectual dishonesty and deceptive motivations on the part of those who decide to celebrate an important event on a day/week other than the actual date. That assumption is unwarranted -- it is neither demonstrated in general, nor in the intent of the party in question. Yet, for your illustration to make its point it must rest on the assumption of unethical intent. To wit:

 

"I am sure I can find 3 more things to celebrate"

 

This statement betrays the assumption of dishonesty ... i.e., the assumed intent to "cheat." Your hypothetical fraud is on a hunting expedition, searching for multiple reasons to have special celebrations; he is looking for ways to cook up justifications for further celebration. Perhaps one of the listed causes for celebration is valid -- particularly if the cruise is being taken in order to celebrate (as they frequently are) -- but the piling on of causes for celebration is sufficient evidence to illustrate the fraud's immoral intent. Perhaps you consider this realistic -- I can imagine that some people are so unethical that they might, indeed, do something like you describe -- however, it doesn't describe, nor invalidate, the intentions or motivations of those who are seeking to celebrate a special event by taking a cruise and having a celebration while aboard.

 

Without assuming an intention to deceive, the celebration of a special event by taking a cruise and having a cake is not an immoral or unethical desire. No attempt or intent to defraud exists, and no desire to "pile on more" is present. In short, and in my opinion, it is not cheating.

 

You see - everyone has something to celebrate - and we can stretch it to cover anything. IMO, thats cheating.

 

I would agree ... that would be cheating. It would be cheating because the intention is deceptive ... we are trying to "stretch it to cover anything." But that's not the case here. Someone is taking a cruise, and having a cake, to celebrate a special occasion. I do not consider that to be cheating.

 

Unless your event is the week of the cruise - and you order cake the day of the event - I personally consider it cheating.

 

I understand your point of view, and appreciate that you have qualified it by stating that you "personally consider it cheating." Unless an intention to defraud is present, I simply don't agree. Based upon your argument, it was cheating for my family to celebrate my birthday with dinner and a cake on March 22nd when my Birthday was on March 21st. That is the logical conclusion of your argument. It is specious.

 

Otherwise - everyone should have special occassion cakes sent to their table every night of the week

 

Non-Sequitur conclusions always appear reasonable, but they rarely are. To put this simply: why should everyone have special occasion cakes sent to their table every night of the week?? Your conclusion assumes your invalid premise -- that a motive to deceive is present when one desires to have a special occasion celebration. That is simply not demonstrated.

[RevNeal]

HAL offered it and we accepted. Was it unethical then to accept it?

 

Not at all. And the fact that they freely supplied it, on a date other than the actual date, illustrates that it wouldn't have been unethical even had you asked for it. :)

[FlorenceItaly]

This horse is dead!!

 

I can't help it, I am shaking my head and LOL at the same time :). I love ya guys! :).

 

Marie

[iluvcruzin]

I agree Marie.. It gives them something to talk about, debate on, argue, kill time, shoot the breeze, beat with a stick, beat an argument until its dead, and bore us to a point we can't make it past the first sentence of a post. Let them play in their sandbox and here it is... LOL!

[RevNeal]

Gee ... thanks! :D

I agree, it's quite funny.

 

Is the horse dead? Sure ... dead and waiting the truck to take him to the glue factory! We appear to have our various opinions, and neither is going to change the others mind -- or, for that matter, their own. But ... hey ... at least we're being civil! :)

[superstein61]

Your exercise in casuistry gave me a chuckle. It is witty while, at the same time, illustrating your point of view quite well. It also illustrates what I consider to be a flaw in your reasoning. You assume both intellectual dishonesty and deceptive motivations on the part of those who decide to celebrate an important event on a day/week other than the actual date.

 

Rev - let me ask you this simple question - is there any time when you think ordering a cake to celebrate an event would be wrong? Even if that even was say 25 weeks away?

 

Then a follow-up -

 

Would you feel it is wrong to order multiple cakes on different dates to celebrate different events?

 

 

I would agree ... that would be cheating. It would be cheating because the intention is deceptive ... we are trying to "stretch it to cover anything." But that's not the case here. Someone is taking a cruise, and having a cake, to celebrate a special occasion. I do not consider that to be cheating.

 

Aren't differences of opinion wonderful

 

 

I understand your point of view, and appreciate that you have qualified it by stating that you "personally consider it cheating." Unless an intention to defraud is present, I simply don't agree.

 

Yes - everyone has their own moral compass and sense of ethics, so no doubt folks will judge things differently. What one finds wrong, another may find right - and vice versa. Its simply my opinion that ethically - there is no ethical nor moral difference between bringing a bottle of booze on board and asking for a cake to celebrate something a month away

 

 

Non-Sequitur conclusions always appear reasonable, but they rarely are. To put this simply: why should everyone have special occasion cakes sent to their table every night of the week?? Your conclusion assumes your invalid premise -- that a motive to deceive is present when one desires to have a special occasion celebration. That is simply not demonstrated.

 

Ahhh - but sometimes pointing out the extremes of a position helps one to see the flaws in their argument. So my conclusion is IMO very valid. It points out what would happen if everyone attempted to order cakes for special occassions 3 weeks to 26 weeks away

[superstein61]

Gee ... thanks! :D

I agree, it's quite funny.

 

Is the horse dead? Sure ... dead and waiting the truck to take him to the glue factory! We appear to have our various opinions, and neither is going to change the others mind -- or, for that matter, their own. But ... hey ... at least we're being civil! :)

 

Well we do agree on this :)

[RevNeal]

...is there any time when you think ordering a cake to celebrate an event would be wrong? Even if that even was say 25 weeks away?

 

Then a follow-up -

 

Would you feel it is wrong to order multiple cakes on different dates to celebrate different events?

 

I think I already answered both questions in a prior post. Nevertheless, your questions are simple enough ... I'll answer them again:

 

1. Yes, but it doesn't have anything to do with time. Intention is what would make it right or wrong. If the intentions are similar to those expressed in your hypothetical example in your previous post, then it would be wrong. However, I wouldn't consider it wrong for a couple to celebrate an event that was 25 (or more) weeks away if, for example, the cruise itself was planned, and purchased, for the purpose of celebrating that event. Health concerns, work scheduling, or other such factors could easily require an acceleration or postponement of a celebration. When my grandparents celebrated their 75th anniversary we did so 4 months late because, on the exact date, my grandfather was in the hospital. That wasn't cheating, nor would I have considered it cheating had it happened on a cruise. Intention is the critical factor.

 

2. As for multiple cakes ... that would depend upon the length of the cruise and, again, the intention in ordering them. Let us hypothesize that you're on the world cruise: if your birthday is Feb 1st, your wife's birthday is March 1st, and your Anniversary is April 1st, I would say that each is a valid reason to celebrate with a cake. :) However, on a 7 day cruise (I suppose that was the example you used), to pull 7 different events from all over the year for the clear and expressed purpose of having a cake every evening would be, in my opinion, "cheating." As I've already said, it's the intention.

 

...there is no ethical nor moral difference between bringing a bottle of booze on board and asking for a cake to celebrate something a month away.

 

I disagree. :) Firstly, in the case of bringing a bottle of booze aboard one is breaking known Cruise Line policies; in the case of ordering a cake to celebrate something a month away, one is not only not violating any Cruise Line policies, but also the cruise line has been known to facilitate such celebrations. Secondly, the intention of smuggling a bottle of booze onboard is either to avoid having to pay the prices the cruise-line charges or, perhaps, because they don't carry your brand. In the second intention one's intellectual honesty remains intact, but ethical action would nevertheless call on one to accept an inconvenience rather than willfully violating known cruise-line regulations.

 

None of this applies to ordering a cake for a celebration a month away. What cruise line policies are violated? Ordering such a cake becomes unethical when the intention to abuse the benefit overrides the intellectual honesty of the celebration. Again, in my opinion the ethical principle is rooted in the the question of intention, and a test-case can confirm it. Would you consider it cheating to order a cake to celebrate an event 2 months away even if celebrating that event is the very purpose for taking the cruise in the first place? If your answer is "yes, it is cheating," then you still have intellectual honesty but are a legalist (that's ironic). If your answer is "no, it is not cheating" then one's ethical standards are coordinate with the principle of intention. It is the "principle of intention" that governs most moral and ethical standards and absolutes. For instance, "Self defense" is rooted in this principle.

 

Would you mind answering my question from earlier? Was it "cheating" for my family to celebrate my birthday on March 22nd rather than on March 21st? You place a great deal of stock in basing an argument on an extreme example, so let's take the opposite extreme. Was that event "cheating"? If you don't think the question applies, think again.

[Orcrone]

Will someone please shoot this thread and put it out of our misery?

[RevNeal]

Will someone please shoot this thread and put it out of our misery?

 

LOL ... actually, all we're doing right now is sharing views and discussing a fine-point of moral ethics. :) If it's miserable, don't read it. However, from the looks of things we're pretty much winding down. We know where each other stands and appear to just be filling in fine-points and clarifying details. I'm sorry if I'm a bit long-winded in my prior to posts ... I plead occupational hazard. :D

 

As I said before, at least we're being civil. :D