Tipping Tour Drivers ??

[Dorothy]

I see that Gunther and BCN lady have their opinions. I am trying not to be narrow minded about this. I respect them for speaking up for what they believe to be true and right as Europeans. Therefore, rather than argue the point, I will email the drivers that I used and ask their opinions and how people are tipping them.

However, keep in mind that we already have a driver from Italy who has posted and he is in favor of tipping.

 

Thanks to Gunther and BCN Lady, maybe this will open our eyes. Gunther, I did not take offense to your postings, just wanted to clarify that although you may see some things when you come to the states, not all behave poorly. I wish you could see the ourpouring of care we give, in the community I live in. I have also lived in the inner cities and understand what your observations have been.

[Kindlychap]

The United Kingdom, especially London, is somewhat different from the rest of Continental Europe, both in its labor regulations and practices, as well as in its tipping practices.

 

I'm, as you'll note, English.

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. There is a minimum wage over here in exactly the same way as on the continent, and of course the social chapter applies to all EC members.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong in your conclusions - I'm just interested in how you arrive at them.

[Keith1010]

I have traveled to Italy several times on business and for pleasure. I want to highlight that we did not just use books written for Americans. In terms of business my responsibilities were as a senior executive for a world wide global communications provider. I had people not only in the United States but in country meaning that I had people located throughout the world including people located in Italy, France, the United Kingdom and Italy. Prior to each business trip we would review the local customs with our in country personnel ranging from social etiquette to business practices to other areas including tipping. I just looked back through my notes and we were advise to tip drivers, and restaurant servers throughout Italy. I also looked through my notes from all of the countries that we visited for business meetings throughout Europe and these practices did vary by country. For example, in France, usually the service charge is clearly noted on the restaurant menu and on the bill itself. In those cases were service has been excellent/outstanding it is appreciated if a small additional gratuity is left, but clearly it is not required. Just a nice gesture.

 

In short, we were provided with excellent information by those who live in each of the respective countries that we visited and quite frankly this matches up very well with other information that I have read whether it is in American Travel guides (which by the way are printed in various languages and sold in bookstores throughout the world) or from other sources.

 

For those who do not feel it necessary to tip do what you feel best and for those who do think it is right to tip do what you feel best.

 

I have always used as a guideline the local custom for the location that we have visited and then made any necessary adjustments based on my good judgement.

 

Dorothy, I am sure that you will learn from others that tipping in Italy is a common practice and you will see it first hand when you were there. When we were in Italy on our most recent visit, one of the places that we had dinner at was clearly focused on the locals. There were very few Americans there. Yet, I observed people leaving gratuities (it is common practice to leave the grauity in cash in Italy) for their server and there is no question in my mind that this practice included both the locals along with others such as myself.

 

Keith

[sjbdtz]

However, keep in mind that we already have a driver from Italy who has posted and he is in favor of tipping.

 

I'm in favor of people wantonly giving me their money too....shall I send you my mailing address? :rolleyes:

 

 

My issue remains the same....you don't tip the checkout clerk at a clothing store...or a lawyer, or elevator operator, or busboy at McDonalds....so why do you tip a driver? In America it's because drivers are underpaid and are typically recent immigrants who don't have enough work experience to get jobs in their chosen field.

 

In Europe, it's different. Their job is a respectable job, paid a respectable wage, and they consider themselves professionals. Just because you got a greedy one, doesn't mean that it's right.

[Dorothy]

Well according to Keiths research, the results were to tip drivers.

 

I emailed my drivers to ask them if they prefer to be tipped and how often they are tipped. Is it Americans only?

 

If I hear back from them I will give you the answers.

[CruisinGerman]

Kindly chap:

 

When I say the UK is different, I do not mean they don't have a minimum wage. Every western democracy has a minimum wage. Where the UK differs from Continental Europe is in the stringency of labor regulations and employee rights. For example, on the Continent, it is very difficult to fire anybody with a permanent employment contract, for any reason, even if caught committing fraud or stealing. Even when you are finally allowed to fire someone, you have to pay that person a very hefty severance pay which sometimes totals several years of that person's salary. In order to prevent the employee from taking the case to court (the labor Courts almost always rule in favor of the employee in one way or another on the Continent), you have to offer the employee a far greater severance package than is legally required. Also, the UK obviously has an unemployment benefit, but I would venture to say it is not up to five years of full salary. The mandatory vacation, paid leaves and other employee rights favor the employee on the Continent to a far greater extent than they do in the UK. The list goes on and on. Everytime the IMF publishes one of their forecast reports on the world economy, it always mentions the extremely tight labor regulations on the Continent.

 

Just come live (and work) in Spain or France for awhile and you will definitely see what I mean.

 

For Keith and all of the others:

 

I am very happy that Keith and many others get to travel to Europe a few times a year and from those trips get to reach the conclusion that tipping is alive and well in Continental Europe.

 

However, I happen to have lived here my entire life. I am a retired diplomat and majority shareholder of a medium-sized company with production facilities in several European countries. Because of both my professional endeavors and personal hunger to see the world and experience different cultures, my wife and I have travelled and lived in many European countries, in New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco, and presently between Paris and Barcelona.

 

Whether you dine at the most exclusive world-famous restaurants of Paris, Cataluña (El Bulli), or a friendly neighborhood tavern or tapas bar, you should not tip anything beyond rounding up a few coins, or rounding up your taxi fare, in any country in Continental Europe. It is just not part of our culture, no matter what drivers and restaurant workers here might try to tell American tourists (after all, would you flatly refuse money that someone is so willing to throw right in your face?).

 

Do you tip your child's teacher? Do you tip the sales clerk in Macy's? Do you tip your doctor? Do you tip your lawyer? Do you tip the doctor's nurse who takes your blood pressure? Do you tip your pharmacist? That all sounds funny to you, doesn't it?

 

Well, the whole matter of tipping sounds just as funny to us here in Continental Europe. We don't do it. Period. Take my advice or don't take my advice, but we do not tip service people as you do in the United States because service people earn proper wages and benefits as part of their salary and therefore, in our eyes, they are not any different from teachers, doctors, lawyers, pharmacists, accountants, governmental civil servants, etc.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

[Host Karen]

...Take my advice or don't take my advice, but we do not tip service people as you do in the United States because service people earn proper wages and benefits as part of their salary and therefore, in our eyes, they are not any different from teachers, doctors, lawyers, pharmacists, accountants, governmental civil servants, etc.

 

Kind regards,

Gunther and Uta

 

I've been following this thread with interest because, as Americans, we are tippers. However, I also believe that we should try to follow the "rules" when we visit other countries, as we expect visitors to our country to do, and in this case, between what Gunther has written and what I have read, tipping is not common in the countries we visited during our Med cruise. Of course, our "guide" on a few private tours encouraged me, as the tour organizer, to collect a tip for the driver of about 5 euros per person, which led everyone to tip the guide as well (he's obviously been in the business a long time).

 

I wouldn't recommend asking someone if they expect a tip; they would be foolish to say no, since the person asking is predisposed to provide one. As such, I always take the complaints of our cabin steward and other tip-based crew on ships with a grain of salt, because I know they are hoping for big sympathy tips. We do tip them, of course, based on the level of their service, but we don't overtip bad service out of pity.

 

We can all argue this point until the cows come home, but I think Gunther's last sentence sums up the discussion. JMHO

[Dorothy]

Karen-

 

Well said. I think you are right that we should try and follow the rules of other countries. Gunther makes very valid points because he lives there. However, we also have a driver from Italy who says tipping drivers is okay and a traveler who has consulted travel guides, etc. I would like to do what is proper. It seems argumentative when you read the thread, but I think it is a good debate and we need to come up with our own conclusion. I have written my drivers to ask their opinion and hope they have the time to respond, so I can add their 2 cents minus their names, of course.

[CruisinGerman]

Dorothy:

 

Just as Karen mentioned at the end of her post, a service provider addressing an American tourist who is already predisposed to provide a tip is going to respond to you and say that it is okay to give a tip.

 

I know what these private drivers charge the cruise passengers and please believe me when I tell you that you are more than amply paying for the service you are receiving.

 

I have lived here my entire life and, if you read my post where it states my profession and personal interests, I think you can rest assured that I have done my fair share of travelling and, therefore, been to my fair share of restaurants and used a myriad of drivers, tour companies and other services.

 

It is not necessary to tip one red cent -- or if you feel so inclined you may round up your bill or fare with loose change. That's how it's done here. Period.

 

I hope you have a nice and smooth trip, since that's what this forum is all about.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

[Dorothy]

Okay, as promised, I said I would post answers from my drivers (who I now consider friends) if they wrote me back in response to the question on whether or not to tip and if people are tipping, then who's doing it?

 

I am not going to release any names for this, but here is a true quote I just received:

 

"WE drivers really appreciate the tips and actually get offended with people that do not tip......The Americans are the most generous and for this reason always get top service."

 

He also went on to say that 10% is appropriate. So, that is another answer direct from a driver in Italy in favor of tipping. I will post any other responses I receive. BTW, the quote above is word for word and you'll notice the word "WE" is emphasized. So, I believe he meant he was speaking for others in his profession.

 

Thanks Gunther for your kind words and opinions. This has been a good thread with opinions from both sides of the fence. I have already taken my trip and yes, I tipped very well. I guess I will be one of the stubborn people and continue to tip according to the service that is provided. I just feel good knowing I gave a little more for a job well done.

[Keith1010]

I've been following this thread with interest because, as Americans, we are tippers. However, I also believe that we should try to follow the "rules" when we visit other countries, as we expect visitors to our country to do, and in this case, between what Gunther has written and what I have read, tipping is not common in the countries we visited during our Med cruise. Of course, our "guide" on a few private tours encouraged me, as the tour organizer, to collect a tip for the driver of about 5 euros per person, which led everyone to tip the guide as well (he's obviously been in the business a long time).

 

I wouldn't recommend asking someone if they expect a tip; they would be foolish to say no, since the person asking is predisposed to provide one. As such, I always take the complaints of our cabin steward and other tip-based crew on ships with a grain of salt, because I know they are hoping for big sympathy tips. We do tip them, of course, based on the level of their service, but we don't overtip bad service out of pity.

 

We can all argue this point until the cows come home, but I think Gunther's last sentence sums up the discussion. JMHO

 

Host Karen, I agree with most of what you say but I do not agree with one key point. It is not fair to classify all of Europe in the same manner. If that was the case, then in those countries where the service charge is automatically on the bill it would be the same in each country and it's not. And itf that was the case there would be service charges on each bill in every country at the same amount and that is not the case. Further if that is the case, then everyone would follow the same laws throughout Europe and that is not the case. It's like saying that all customs in North America are the same and they are not. Many vary by country and some even vary within a country.

 

I'm sorry to disagree but as I said I had in country people in various countries in Europe and we were briefed before each trip and the customs varied by country. In France, the service charge is included in the tip and therefore either no tip is necessary or leaving a few extra euros would be appropriate. In Italy all of this varies by restaurant. In some restaurants, the service charge is included and in other countries it is not. For taxi cab drivers in Italy again I have been advised by people that live there that it is very appropriate to leave a tip.

 

And finally, the laws in terms of workers rights vary throughout Europe. For example in France workers are paid a very high salary and if you want to lay off a person it is very difficult to do so and a very lengthly process. And that is precisely what is hurting their economy because many companies do not want to set up shop in France for these reasons. And, Gunther is right for France. Workers there are very highly compensated there which is why a tip in a French restaurant is really not necessary. But, that is not the case in Italy where workers are not compensated the way French workers are and do not have the same rights as French workers.

 

Again, we do not generalize that everyone in North America has the same wages. If that is the case, I don't think we would have the issues we do with workers from Mexico coming to the United States.

 

Same thing for Asia. The customs vary in each country that you will visit.

 

Bottom line, I don't agree with generalities and we do try to follow the customs that each country has.

 

Now to Gunther's last point. There is no custom that we tip a teacher in the United States. But, I have always viewed most tips as a thank you. Well, during the December holidays and at the end of the school year, our children would provide a gift to their teachers as a way to say thank you. And for those special teachers, their parents (us) would write a nice letter of thanks for all they did for our children during the school year. Clearly, this is not a US custom but is the way we go about our business of saying thank you for a well job.

 

Again, I want to highlight that customs vary throughout Europe whether it's what time people go to dinner (eg., in Spain you go to dinner late but that is not the case throughout Europe), Holidays vary throughout Europe, wages and workers rights vary thoughout Europe, and the custom for tipping varies throughout Europe.

 

I do agree that it is not necessary to ask a driver if they get a tip just as in the US I would not ask a server what their average tip is. However, what I do recommend is for people to do their research on this subject and then in the end to do what they feel is right. Again, I've always said that tipping is a very personal matter and that's what I say here. People should do the research and then tip or not tip accordingly based on their set of values and taking account the practices in each country they visit.

 

Keith

[CruisinGerman]

Keith:

 

I have travelled in every European country and have lived in eight of them.

 

Tips are not expected anywhere. Don't listen to the confusion about whether the service charge is or is not included. That is very obscure and ambiguous language. The price you pay on the menu (no matter how it is worded) is sufficient to pay the waiter's full salary and full benefits, so when it boils down to it, I guess the service charge is included, isn't it?

 

Some of the countries' antiquated tax laws treat the so-called "service charge" different for tax purposes than just charging a price for a meal on the menu. That is the only reason why in some countries and in some restaurants it is separated. It has nothing to do with paying the waiter. It is a mere accounting matter.

 

I have read some of your American tour publisher's websites (Rick Steeves, Fodor's). They are actually very amusing. They list countries, and say that they have interviewed the service people directly in each country (well, as it has been said before, no service person is going to talk against tipping in the face of an audience pre-disposed to giving big tips).

 

But, for every country listed, the things they say range from "No tipping necesary at all", to other comments like "if you are satisfied, you can tip a few coins or perhaps 5%, but if you don't it's no big deal".

 

Well, the bottom line out of any of these comments is obviously that tipping above and beyond rounding up a few coins is not at all necesary or required.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

[Host Karen]

So much information, so little time! I agree, Dorothy, I think this has been a good debate. While at times it seems close to falling over the edge into something less than civil, I think everyone has made their points clearly and without rancor.

 

Keith, I should have indicated what countries we visited (Spain, France, Italy, Greece and Turkey) in case that made a difference, but I agree with Gunther that in the Frommer's guidebooks I read on these countries, it indicated that regardless of whether a service charge was indicated on the restaurant bill or not, merely rounding up to the nearest euro was appropriate when paying the bill. With regard to taxis, I believe the recommendation was the same. There was no advice that I can recall regarding private drivers.

 

As with many other things, I think that while some of us will learn something from this discussion, I doubt that anyone's tipping practices will be altered. There are many possible reasons for that, but I don't think we want to start a discussion on those -- that would definitely push this conversation over the edge!

 

I think I've written all I have to contribute on this topic, and I thank all of you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. It's been very interesting.

 

Karen

[Dorothy]

Okay, to quote Karen, this will be the last I will write on this subject and on this thread, but I got another response from another driver.

 

He tells me 10% is what drivers should be tipped for all drivers in Italy provided they performed their services well. He tells me the drivers love ALL Americans for it and why they don't like Europeans in general because they don't tip. He also says that since they have gone to using the Euro and no longer the Lira, it is much harder on Italians financially because the cost of living is now double for them and the tips are therefore, very welcomed.

 

So, with 3 Italian drivers all saying it is normal to be tipped 10% for good service, then I'm sticking to my original guns and I encourage ALL Americans to do the same. If you receive good service please let them know by providing a tip.

 

Checking out now.

[CruisinGerman]

Dorothy,

 

Please don't be so naive.

 

"They love Americans."

 

That means that they prefer Americans because it is easy to rip them off because of their lack of knowledge of the local practices.

 

"They hate Europeans."

 

That means that they can't pull one over on the Europeans, because Europeans know exactly how to treat them.

 

"The cost of living is more expensive because of the Euro."

 

I would expect an Italian driver to say that. If you read one of my previous posts, I remind people how in the days of the Italian lire, rounding up meant giving Italian drivers thousands of undeserved lire, and they even refused to make change.

 

It is very obvious why they don't like a monetary system that uses simple units and cents, rather than thousands of units and no cents.

 

The very first year (January 2002) euro notes went into circulation (although the electronic financial system actually implemented the euro in 1999) there was an inflationary impact.

 

For example, if a café con leche used to cost 100 pesetas in Madrid and Barcelona (100 pesetas would convert to €0.60) because 100 pesetas was a standard coin to use, all of a sudden upon the onset of the euro, that coffee came to cost €1.00. (Then Starbucks from the States decided to make its way into Spain and France, and all of a sudden our €1.00 coffees came to cost €3.00 and €4.00 at Starbucks, but that would be another discussion completely.) But, Dorothy that was nearly five years ago and things have pretty much ironed themselves out over here since that time. I would say inflation has been worse in the United States due to the rise in fuel costs. After all, your interest rates have been going up for several years now to combat inflation, while ours only started to go up this year. Although fuel costs have risen in Europe as well, the strength of the euro vis-à-vis the U.S. dollar in recent years has moderated the inflationary effect of that rise to some extent.

 

Dorothy, please don't feel so sorry for us "poor" Europeans. Do you know that, except for this year when they have started to go up in Europe, for the last five years our mortgage interest rates here in Europe have only been 2.5%? As I mentioned previously, although salaries seem to be lower here than in the United States than they are in Europe, they go a lot farther here.

 

Dorothy, do you know many waiters or drivers in the United States who get their monthly salary paid 14 times per year, get more than one month of paid vacation, plus paid holidays, plus virtually unlimited paid sick leave, plus full healthcare for life, plus full unemployment, pension, disability and death benefits plus knowing that they will be paid several years of salary if their boss finds a way to fire them?

 

Dorothy, please don't let people take advantage of you and pull one over on you. Perhaps that strong comment about the Italian drivers hating the Europeans proves the fact that we know the true story, so we don't allow ourselves to be taken advantage of. Remember the recent New York Times article which confirms that restaurants in Rome deliberately try to overcharge foreign tourists. Don't let someone take advantage of you. Just because you are visiting a foreign country, there is no reason for the hosts of that country to try to rip you off.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

[Dorothy]

Dear Gunther,

 

My last post was supposed to be my last, but I had to make this correction. You quoted me and the driver as saying they "hate" Europeans. He never said that. He said "didn't like". (Meaning he doesn't like that they don't tip, not hate the person) To me, the word "hate" is an extremely strong word and I would never use that word and would not have rewritten what he conveyed to me, had he used that word. Perhaps, it is the way I wrote my post and if it was misunderstood, I apologize to all Europeans, who may have taken it in that context.

 

I appreciate all of your posts. I do believe you mean well, to help others.

I think we put together a very good debate and I think from here, with all the information everyone has very kindly contributed, people can now come to their own conclusions on what to do, whichever way they decide.

[CruisinGerman]

Dorothy and friends:

 

Whether I used the word hate as opposed to dislike or any other word, I am just trying to tell you to be smart during your travels and don't fall into the trap of getting ripped off.

 

And Dorothy, get some sleep--it's too early for you to be awake on a Saturday in California.

 

My wife and I just got home from a pleasant lunch in Barcelona a few minutes ago.

 

We didn't leave any tip -- and we were still treated quite kindly.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

[Dode]

When I received the quote from a company in Italy for hiring a private driver, at the end of the quote it stated that

 

"gratuities are not mandatory in Italy, however, we do feel that if clients have been happy with their service, the driver should receive a tip as a token of their appreciation."

 

Any thoughts on what would be customary? 10% - 20%? I was thinking 10% if satisfied, 20% if exceptional service.

 

I won't know who the drivers are in advance, so not sure if they would appreciate or be offended by being tipped with a gift.

[CruisinGerman]

In the United States, gratuities are "mandatory" according to your system.

 

In Europe, as this company has at least had the decency to admit, tips are not given.

 

That language is used just to play with Americans' consciences because the tour company knows that Americans are not happy unless they throw tips at everyone.

 

Don't tip. It is not necessary, and you will not get any worse service for it.

 

Kind regards,

Gunther and Uta

[cruisers4ever]

Dode,

Please go back and read pg.1 of this thread. It will give you information and others wise comments on this topic, then make your own decision.

Personally, I want to thank Gunther for sharing all this info.on tipping, I will change my thought process and feel good about doing it, thanks.

[Dorothy]

Read this thread and decide for yourself. There is plenty written on the topic.

 

Gunther, In America, gratuities are NOT mandatory. It is based on the service provided. If service is very poor, then people don't tip. If service was not too good and only so-so, then it is 10-15%. If excellent, 15-20%.

[CruisinGerman]

Dorothy, of course, legally speaking, tips are not mandatory in the United States and nobody is going to throw you in jail, for not tipping, although this has been attempted recently in New York City.

 

There is a recent case entailing a customer of "Sopranos" restaurant in New York walking out of the restaurant and refusing to leave a tip for his party of 10, alleging bad service. The owner said that, on the menu, it is written that for parties of six or more, an 18% tip is mandatory.

 

The customer was arrested and taken to jail. Finally, in the end, the Prosecutor did not file charges because he admitted that, if the restaurant uses the word "tip", a tip is not mandatory no matter what the restaurant says, and criminal charges cannot be filed.

 

This case takes the "mandatory" nature of tipping in the United States to an extreme.

 

If you leave a restaurant in a major U.S. city like New York without tipping, perhaps you will not be taken to jail (especially after the precedent I describe above), but in 99% of the circumstances you will be approached by the waiter or his manager asking for an explanation and you will be made to feel uncomfortable. This will not happen in Europe because tips are never expected or required. Service people are no different from teachers or nurses, etc.

 

Please do not say that tips are not mandatory in the United States, because that is really not the case.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

[Maryutah]

Thanks for the posts Gunther and Uta - good to know how local customs work and what is 'expected' - I had no idea that other 'customs' would not tip - guess assuming what i've always known is valid everywhere.

 

Of course I thought hot chocolate was universal until given a cup of hot fudge for a sundae when requested at a McDonalds in Australia - live and learn, I say! :D

[hylasgirl]

Thanks Gunther... I agree with you! And I also agree that tips are DEFINITELY mandatory in America. We all know it! Of course we all know that the poor wait staff is only being paid about $2.50 an hour also. But anyone who says that tipping is not mandatory here is just refusing to see your point.

 

Thanks again...

[Dorothy]

Hylasgirl, First, I have no idea where you are from, but the Federal Minimum Wage is $5.15 per hour. Not a lot of money, but it is also NOT $2.50. California’s minimum wage is $6.75 and will soon be going up to $8. New York is $7. Tips are NOT mandatory. I have lived in the San Francisco area for most of my life and I have friends who own restaurants, so I know here in California they are paid better than $2.50 per hour. Tipping depends on the service. If the service is extremely poor, then don’t tip. If service is good but not great, then 10-15% is adequate. Excellent service is rewarded with 15-20%. Secondly, when I write, I am going by knowledge and experience, so I don’t appreciate your remarks of “just refusing to see your point”.

 

This thread was based on tipping “Drivers”. When it comes to tipping wait staff, I totally agree that we round up to the nearest Euro, only. I have written this in a past post and was in agreement with Gunther in this respect. In regards to the drivers, I emailed drivers that I have used in Italy. Each responded exactly the same way. Tips are certainly appreciated and are the norm for “Drivers”. They said when they do not receive a tip, they wonder what they did wrong. These drivers had nothing to gain from me when they answered, as I am a past client. Also, an Italian driver read this thread and said the same thing my drivers did. They accept and appreciate tips for good service. Again, we are speaking of drivers in Italy. I have no idea what the rest of Europe is like. When I am in other countries, I ask the questions on what is proper. In some countries (Japan and Spain to name a couple), tipping is not expected for drivers and therefore, I have not tipped. So, when I write my opinion on this thread, it is coming straight from the horses mouth, so to speak.

 

Again, this thread is about drivers, not restaurant personnel. I have no idea what happened in New York and I have no way of confirming it, nor do I care to. I do, however, know what is the norm in my state of California.

 

Come on people, is this really right? If drivers in Italy customarily receive tips for good service are you really going to stiff them? After spending a wonderful day and seeing all the sights with your guide and he/she has gone beyond your expectations in service for the day, are you going to feel good not tipping them? After all the money spent on our vacations, is $20-$25 going to break you? Yet, you may very well hurt the feelings of someone who worked very hard for you. My drivers provided me with a day that I could never have accomplished on my own. They made sure they did everything I requested via email. As far as I am concerned, they were worth every cent I gave them in wages and tip.