QE2 ladies in trousers

[Kindlychap]

At least the tie I don't tie is a black one:p

 

Can you imagine how embarrassing it must be to be confused with one of the staff?:D

 

Fortunately, that is one worry I don't have......

 

Still, at least no-one has mentioned coloured bow tie with cream jacket, on the North Atlantic.

 

One of these days I'll lean across to one of these and order a drink!

 

Matthew

[pnhmrk]

Who's Jack?

I'm not familiar with that saying... or its connotations.

 

It means that, as log as the subject of the comment is fine then that person doesn't care about anyone else - anyone else is Jack:)

[Kindlychap]

What I am saying is that it always seems on this board that everyone else seems to think they have a better take on what I (or anyone else) should wear than the wearer does. It is so condescending. It always comes off as though many posters feel that their opinions are the only ones that matter, and that they are always right, and that they have the right to judge other folks' attire! It is just so snooty and so WRONG! Who do these people feel they are to presume that they have the right (and the franchise) to tell others how to act. Who is to tell THEM how to act? Obviously, Emily Post has not gotten through to them about proper etiquette! They may know how to dress properly (or not- It is a matter of opinion, to a degree) but they sure don't know how to act among civilized people!

 

There are well establish social conventions. Black tie does (as Angela pointed out) tend to exclude green bow ties.

 

Convention also suggests a traditional collar for black tie, a wing collar for white tie.

 

To point out that Cunard is a place where the majority follow the conventions of black tie is simply to state a fact.

 

To deliberately go against these conventions suggests one of four things. Firstly that one doesn't know. Alternatively one doesn't care. Or one wishes to make a shock impact. Or perhaps someone has got lost on the way to a Carnival ship.

 

I'm not sure that any of these alternatives is one I would want anyone to apply to me.

 

Matthew

[patwell]

Well call me a dotty old traditionalist...one of the reasons I am so attracted to Cunard (and for me, QM2) is the likelihood of finding more people than not following the dress "suggestions" for various nights. I love the formality...I don't want to argue with anyone about it, or why, or what constitutes formal....I think the majority of us on this board know what formal is. What I found so delightful last Dec was that everywhere we went we saw others following the 'code" if you will for the night...it only added to the magic of the moment and I saw few who were flaunting it in any way.

 

If I wanted to push the envelope on what is formal and what is not I'd go to that board we don't frequent anymore (:rolleyes:) and start another bruhaha over there. I love black tie...tied or pre-tied...matters not to me. In my case pre-tied is a godsend as Steve's hand precludes him doing that and I can't tie a bow to save my life. I love having a reason to wear an elegant long gown....it's an important reason why I choose Cunard as the expectation of seeing the majority similarly dressed when called for is more of a probability than on some other lines...OK, MOST other lines.

 

Just my humble opinion....and Matthew...cut the guy in the green bow tie some slack and don't order a drink from him! At least he's wearing a bow tie.

 

Luckily black tie goes with 90% of my formal wardrobe so we always look coordinated...until "The Lady in Red" makes her appearance this Nov and if he tries to wear a red bow tie to match I'll have to toss him overboard:eek:

 

Cheers, Penny

Penny’s Affair to Remember QM2 Review

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=471053

[Nitty]

I can safely say that myself and my husband do know how to dress properly - formal and informal. I was simply asking if many ladies wore trousers on informal nights. I must say they are very dressy and so would the top be.

 

Anyway I have decided! the trousers will come out to play on the elegant/casual night and dresses for the other nights.

 

Nitty - Mrs :o

[Nitty]

Who's Jack?

I'm not familiar with that saying... or its connotations.

 

What I am saying is that it always seems on this board that everyone else seems to think they have a better take on what I (or anyone else) should wear than the wearer does. It is so condescending. It always comes off as though many posters feel that their opinions are the only ones that matter, and that they are always right, and that they have the right to judge other folks' attire! It is just so snooty and so WRONG! Who do these people feel they are to presume that they have the right (and the franchise) to tell others how to act. Who is to tell THEM how to act? Obviously, Emily Post has not gotten through to them about proper etiquette! They may know how to dress properly (or not- It is a matter of opinion, to a degree) but they sure don't know how to act among civilized people!

 

Karie,

Again, just my opinion, and as guilty as the next one of making presumptions!

 

sorry karie but nitty did ask for opinions.

matthew, i just 'don't do' traditional collars with any colour bow tie. it has to be a wing collar for me which looks better if you can carry it off. tradition it may be but i've never heard of that one. i may wear traditional when i hit 60 but until then i'll act my age:) .

by the way, which came first wing collar or 'big collar' i'd have said wing.

matthew jnr has a gold and cream waistcoat and matching bow tie and no he doesn't work behind the bar:D

regards, glenn.

[pb82]

... i just 'don't do' traditional collars with any colour bow tie. it has to be a wing collar for me which looks better if you can carry it off. tradition it may be but i've never heard of that one. i may wear traditional when i hit 60 but until then i'll act my age:) .

by the way, which came first wing collar or 'big collar' i'd have said wing. ...

Can't discuss formal wear without at least one quote from Miss Manners (it's just not done). This is from Judith Martin's, "Guide for the Turn-of-the-Millennium", sub-titled "The Definitive Reference for Civilized Behavior". I posted it in the "Formal Wear" thread started April 20, 2007, and, considering how we love to disagree about formal wear, I expect to be posting it again.

 

"Black tie and the more formal white tie seem to have gotten stangely mixed up. Wing-collared shirts belong with white tie only (never mind what the rental shop told you: the black band around the back of the neck looks like a major case of ring around the collar); black tie requires pleated shirts, not ruffled;..."

 

Paul

[Kindlychap]

matthew, i just 'don't do' traditional collars with any colour bow tie. it has to be a wing collar for me which looks better if you can carry it off. tradition it may be but i've never heard of that one. i may wear traditional when i hit 60 but until then i'll act my age:)

 

Glenn,

 

Surely "looks better" is an aesthetic judgement - but in my view it doesn't look better.

 

Too flashy for my taste.

 

At what age should one change from wing to traditional?

 

Just wondering if I'm acting my age.......

 

Matthew

[Nitty]

Can't discuss formal wear without at least one quote from Miss Manners (it's just not done). This is from Judith Martin's, "Guide for the Turn-of-the-Millennium", sub-titled "The Definitive Reference for Civilized Behavior". I posted it in the "Formal Wear" thread started April 20, 2007, and, considering how we love to disagree about formal wear, I expect to be posting it again.

 

"Black tie and the more formal white tie seem to have gotten stangely mixed up. Wing-collared shirts belong with white tie only (never mind what the rental shop told you: the black band around the back of the neck looks like a major case of ring around the collar); black tie requires pleated shirts, not ruffled;..."

 

Paul

surely civilized behaviour would have you leaving your jacket on at all times never mind what judith martin tells you. this means you would never see the black band around your collar.

ruffled shirts? they shouldn't even be mentioned unless you're delivering milk tray to one of the suites via the balcony:).

[Nitty]

Glenn,

 

Surely "looks better" is an aesthetic judgement - but in my view it doesn't look better.

 

Too flashy for my taste.

 

At what age should one change from wing to traditional?

 

Just wondering if I'm acting my age.......

 

Matthew

 

you're right, 'looks better' is an aesthetic judgement.

wing to traditional? about 60.

are you acting your age? i don't know.

regards, glenn.

[scouse mouse]

Malcolm - every gentleman should know how to tie a bow tie. Wearing a ready made one is cheating.

[Nitty]

Malcolm - every gentleman should know how to tie a bow tie. Wearing a ready made one is cheating.

 

it's not traditional either.

[Kindlychap]

wing to traditional? about 60.

 

:eek:

 

Matthew

[Anteeta]

Can't discuss formal wear without at least one quote from Miss Manners (it's just not done). This is from Judith Martin's, "Guide for the Turn-of-the-Millennium", sub-titled "The Definitive Reference for Civilized Behavior".

"Black tie and the more formal white tie seem to have gotten stangely mixed up. Wing-collared shirts belong with white tie only (never mind what the rental shop told you: the black band around the back of the neck looks like a major case of ring around the collar); black tie requires pleated shirts, not ruffled;..."

 

Paul

 

But clearly not THE Miss Manners whose opinion could well be worthy given the Manner's family seat at Belvoir Castle.

[Nitty]

:eek:

 

Matthew

 

this is light hearted. wear what you want, they both work equally well.

don't get upset, i'm sure you don't act 60, you can't help being a lawyer:D

regards, glenn.

[Nitty]

i just thought i'd throw this in.
i'm taking three tuxes. one black, one white and one black with a feint stripe in, what do you think of the latter? and no, i will not serve you a drink!
glenn.

[travel-to-go]

<sigh>

I agree with Penny 100%.
I hate to shop, as I have a very difficult figure to shop for. They simply don't make dresses- clothing, for that matter, for my shape. My shape is specific to how one puts on weight from prednisone. In addition to putting on the amount of weight I have, one difficulty is the proportion (or lack thereof!) The weight is not evenly distributed, or even unevenly, but in a "normal" manner. That said, I have a huge closet full of formal wear. Every trip, I find it an excuse to buy another 1 or 2 formal gowns! I tend, since hard to find such things for, particularly if you are going to the Caribbean and shopping in the fall or winter, to buy just about every gown that fits and doesn't make me look worse than I already do! I'm so tickled pink just to find ANYTHING that fits! But I still tend to wear the favorites, the ones I think look better, or a particular color I love over and over. I have a few gowns that have almost as many cruise miles as I do, yet still have the tags on them! I'll usually put them on once a cruise, and before we go out, tear it off and hang it back up, unsatisfied with how it looks or feels. I have one dress I would sell my soul to wear. the top part of the bodice is fabulous. But the skirt is simply too tight- It fits, but shows my every flaw. I can't simply wear a different type of skirt over it, as it is empire waisted, but not straight across. (Hard to describe. Comes up in a sort of Vee, so couldn't wear another skirt over it.) So you will never find me dressed out of sort with the "suggested" (or else!) evening attire. I simply resent the suggestion that I need to be told by others what is or isn't proper. I am not referring to Cunard spelling out the expectation and its meaning, which varies from left of the pond to right of the pond. I appreciate that they do that (if a bit inconsistently) so that I am not embarrassed by some horrendous fashion faux pas. Honestly, I don't want to look like a jerk or be ridiculed, nor does anyone else. That is why they ask these questions! I know to some people, this sounds unbelievable, but in some areas, or (how can I say this) groups of people, formal doesn't necessarily mean formal (!), and they would feel just as out of place being the only guy showing up in a tux as the other way around. I know that sounds ridiculous, but think about how many, if not most, of the people in the US grew up. Their first taste of formal MIGHT have been the prom. And depending on the school, it could be anything goes. Some guys hate to dress up, they are uncomfortable, or afraid they may spill something or whatever. Or the collar chokes them, or maybe they feel like a clod and don't want to do something stupid. They feel more comfortable in a situation where they don't feel on display and won't feel bad about themselves if they do something wrong due to ignorance. They'd rather dumb it down and not have to dress formally, than chance embarrassing themselves by their unfamiliarity. I would have to say that for the vast majority of Americans, we do not grow up going to operas, classical music concerts and other places where "appropriate attire" might be worn. No one wants to feel like a social dolt. They tend to avoid such situations, so they don't end up feeling bad about themselves or make a mistake because they just weren't sure or didn't know. Sometimes words aren't what they seem, and there are <wink, wink, nudge, nudge> social customs that "everybody" knows, but not if you are among the "uninitiated" I'll never forget the first time I was invited to play tennis. I had no clue that I had to wear white. I was so embarrassed- mortified really. I didn't know! I was in High School. I felt like such an idiot! (Yes, you see, I DO still remember it to this day!) As hard as it is for me to look good, I still want to look the best I can. But I don't want someone to treat me like a stupid little kid with no fashion sense or act indignant if I should accidentally mistakenly, unwittingly ask a stupid (obviously) question, such as the newbie whose husband hates to dress up, but will do so if expected, because he is willing to do so, lovingly, to please his spouse. when they simply ask, "is a jacket and tie required?" or some such. They may be new to the line, and have experienced on other lines that the guidelines are only that, and often not followed that much. They are asking an honest question. Why then do people have to respond with insulting remarks such as "perhaps Cunard is not for you" (how haughty!)
or other equally rude and hurtful comments. That is my whole point. it is not the dress code, but the attitude with which it is used as a cudgel. It makes me quite indignant. There are ways to say, "I realize that this is not necessarily the case with all ships, but on Cunard, when they say formal, it really means formal, that is to say, a tuxedo for men and a gown for women. Alternatively, realizing that not all men have tuxes, a dark suit is acceptable, but you'd fit in better in a tux. I can't tell you how many guys were afraid to rent tuxes in my High School on prom night, because they were afraid they'd look stupid. Or with the big expense, they would be the only guy there in a tux and they would look like an idiot. Recognize, that, in average society here, most people do not get the opportunity to dress formally. Even though I have done plenty of formal dressing, I am still terrified of making a mistake, or doing something wrong. especially with the ubiquitous criticism of this group. If someone as experienced as me is still put off by the possibility of making a mistake, breaking some unknown "rule", how must it feel to those who have never cruised Cunard before, or never dressed formally. Truly, formal night brings different expectations and customs on various lines or in various circumstances, regardless of how much you may feel that there are hard and fast and inviolable rules. So try not to be so imperious and so unwavering and critical. Put yourselves into a position where something is unfamiliar, and you are not totally sure of what is expect of you, or if you are understanding things correctly. Pity the poor fellow who has finally figured out how to wear the pre-tied bow tie (one isn't born with the knowledge, you know!), now he is told he is a raving no-class idiot because he didn't tie it himself. I, too, would feel like ordering in that night, figuring I couldn't win! In fact, if Marc had to tie his own, I fear we would starve. We would probably try to tie it twenty seven times, and fainting from hunger, use our last ounce of strength to summon room service, crooked and wrinkled bowtie all asunder.

Well, now I've gone on and on again. It's not because I mean to, It's because I simply cannot adequately express what I mean.
I know it seems incredulous that there are people who simply do not know, or who have social fears about wearing formal attire and being capable of measuring up. We still can never remember which way the creases go, up or down on the cummerbund each time! And Marc is on his third tux! It can cause much consternation and anxiety for some who are not used to it. These unhelpful attitudes do not help the matter. Do you blame them for wanting to wear what they already KNOW how to wear, without worrying about making some dumb mistake? Try to imagine yourself in an unfamiliar context and unsure of yourself. A little compassion can go a long way towards fostering understanding AND compliance is all I am saying. Stop assuming the worst of everyone who asks a question or proffers an opinion or feels differently than you do about something.

And Nitty. (And Natty- aka glenn!) I am sure you will look fine in anything. I understood your original question about the pants and tops. Only those who did not read the post carefully did not notice the transition from Formal to informal nights in your statement. I certainly did! You did not ask if you could wear pants on formal night! They read it wrong if they thought that!

Rest assured, these fights have been fought out on these boards a thousand and one times. And they're not likely to stop by anything I have said here. Certain folks (are going to react to certain other folks as though they are Neanderthals and say things to them which are hurtful. The names and faces may change, but the subject won't! It's nothing personal! People on this list sometimes have a real penchant for imperiousness and being "holier-than-thou" and looking down their (oh, so patrician) noses at the mere questions of others much less their actual actions! Thus you're guilty before you've even done anything, only asked the question! (As you have already found out!)

Karie,
who needs to go rest her fingers now! <G>

[travel-to-go]

[quote name='Nitty']it's not traditional either.[/quote]

Hemm, neither are collars which are already attached to the shirt! Or for that matter, collar stays you don't have to put in and take out each time you wear it! Or todays fabrics which don't require a ton of starch to be worn five minutes without looking like a shabby rag! For that matter, zippers in pants are an invention of the last century, Perhaps men should all have only buttons...especially when you are fumble fingered and in a hurry! <G>
If you don't mind, I think I will pass on certain whale boned undergarments, along with three people to tie my corset tight and give me that hourglass figure! (All of the sand would pop out of my hourglass figure at the weakest spot. and I'm afraid it would NOT be pretty! My sands have shifted with the relentless tides)

Karie,
who thinks looking nice is no day at the beach! even on a day at the beach!

[Nitty]

[quote name='travel-to-go']Hemm, neither are collars which are already attached to the shirt! Or for that matter, collar stays you don't have to put in and take out each time you wear it! Or todays fabrics which don't require a ton of starch to be worn five minutes without looking like a shabby rag! For that matter, zippers in pants are an invention of the last century, Perhaps men should all have only buttons...especially when you are fumble fingered and in a hurry! <G>

excellent point! i never thought of any of that. my comment was off the cuff, in fact i've always worn pre tied but i'm going to wear self tying on this cruise. the only problem is, and i'm going to get stick for this, i've always found self tied bows a bit scruffy.maybe i'm just not that good at tying them.
regards, glenn.

[Wadadli1]

Sorry Karie, but your entire argument about "not knowing what to wear" is specious at best. We have this thing now, it's called The Internet, where you can learn just about anything you want, and some things you wish you hadn't. If by some off-chance someone doesn't have access to this amazing Internet thing they can go to a store that sells formal/dinner clothes and ask them to help find the right clothes. The worst thing they will do is sell them a tie that is not only already tied, but it's not black.

Here is a wonderful example of this wondrous Internet thing we've got...

[URL]http://www.blacktieguide.com/index.html[/URL]

I believe the author is Meaty Petey, a fellow CC member. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know, in order to give my kudos and appreciation for such a wonderful, comprehensive site to the right person. If a man doesn't know how to dress properly AND feel happy doing so after reading thru this, then he needs to have his head examined.

Boys in high school? Well, our High School boy is going to the Prom, dressed in his proper dinner clothes/tuxedo. We went to a store and they fixed him right up.

In sum, it's too easy to know how to dress properly these days. It really hasn't ever been all that difficult. It boils down to do you want to know and then use the knowledge to your advantage.

[pb82]

[quote name='Anteeta']But clearly not THE Miss Manners whose opinion could well be worthy given the Manner's family seat at Belvoir Castle.[/quote]
If Wikipedia is correct that the folks at Belvoir Castle pronounce it [B]Beaver[/B], then I would be reluctant to accept their opinion on the propriety of anything.

Paul

[Nitty]

[quote name='Wadadli1']


In sum, it's too easy to know how to dress properly these days. It really hasn't ever been all that difficult. It boils down to do you want to know and then use the knowledge to your advantage.[/quote]

dressing properly is only half of it. you still have to 'wear' the suit.

[smoothdancer]

I did follow what Karrie was saying... Of course one can go on an internet site or speak with a salesman at a formal shop but it does go beyond that. For many it is a new setting, a new experience and would like to talk about it with others who have cruised.

Just look at the million of posts on the fashion board that says what do you think about this dress... Are they asking for approval, I dont think so....They already know the answer and have already made a decision when they bought the dress, what they want is conversation. The tux question is just more of the same.

[Wadadli1]

[quote name='smoothdancer']I did follow what Karrie was saying... Of course one can go on an internet site or speak with a salesman at a formal shop but it does go beyond that. For many it is a new setting, a new experience and would like to talk about it with others who have cruised.

Just look at the million of posts on the fashion board that says what do you think about this dress... Are they asking for approval, I dont think so....They already know the answer and have already made a decision when they bought the dress, what they want is conversation. The tux question is just more of the same.[/quote]

I agree about the conversation aspect. Much of the time it's "Look what I got!", because they are pleased with their new dress and want to share with others. Then there are those that are really of the "What can I get away with" genre, and they get angry when your answer isn't the one they wanted.

And I'm beginning to wonder why people do the "Is this dress okay" thing. Read the dress code for your particular line and follow it. It says wear a tie, wear a tie.

Well, this is really a whole another topic, so I'll stop. And I have to admit that men asking tuxedo questions being the same as the dress questions on the other board is a new idea to me! My observations have let me to believe the men have a much easier time of it.

[Kindlychap]

[quote name='travel-to-go']I would have to say that for the vast majority of Americans, we do not grow up going to operas, classical music concerts and other places where "appropriate attire" might be worn.[/quote]

The same can be said of most Europeans.

Having said that, the dressiest performance I have been to was the opening night of the season at the Metropolitan, where almost everyone was wearing a dress suit. That was in 2003, and about two weeks previously I had attended the opening night of the season at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, where the dress was as it would be for any normal evening, or possibly very slightly smarter. But no sea of dress suits. I didn't even wear a suit.

You'd have thought that the Wiener Staatsoper would be incredibly formal, but when I was there last week I was one of very few in a dress suit. But I didn't feel out of place......

[quote]There are ways to say, "I realize that this is not necessarily the case with all ships, but on Cunard, when they say formal, it really means formal, that is to say, a tuxedo for men and a gown for women. Alternatively, realizing that not all men have tuxes, a dark suit is acceptable, but you'd fit in better in a tux.........If someone as experienced as me is still put off by the possibility of making a mistake, breaking some unknown "rule", how must it feel to those who have never cruised Cunard before, or never dressed formally.[/quote]

Imagine tryiong to work it out from what Cunard tells you! I had that difficulty in 2003. Equally, imagine being mislead by some of those who say that things will be acceptable and normal when they are not. It can work both ways.

But to deny that there are established conventions is risky. If the argument is (and it is one that Karie advances) that people will be worried about feeling out of place, then "following the established rules" will mean that they will not. If a man asks me what to wear on a formal night, I will explain what a Gentleman wears to such a night. He will be perfectly in place. Okay, he might not be on the cutting edge of fashion (which in my view is a place to be avoided) but he will be dressed for the occasion. He will need to have no worries about being out of place.

I may have a patrician style of writing, but I think I offer advice that will help someone fit in. And for those worrying about self tie bow ties, perhaps you started too late. I already regularly wore one (to play in concerts) in my teens..... I've never worn ready made.

Matthew

PS Someone mentioned fixed collar stiffeners in a shirt. That must be a very up to date shirtmaker!