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NCL Service Charge - Can this be changed? waved?


MakinMemries

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Thank you both mbisson and electricron. It seems that passengers who are happy to reward those from whom they feel they have received good service, but do not want to reward someone they feel doesn't deserve it, have many cruise lines from which to choose. Despite the opposing viewpoints expressed by some of the other contributors to this discussion, I am personally optimistic that NCL will, before too long, again be one of them. Executives smart enough to offer the brilliant compromise of the bar setup to their more price sensitive passengers, are not likely to persist indefinitely in a practice that offends many of the customers they spend so much time and money to attract. (Just to remind anyone who may have forgotten, I don't object to a mandatory tip amount to eliminate "freeriders"; I just want to have some say in who gets it.)

 

I have a different take with NCL's having moved this provision into the COC and out of any "smell" of it being "optional" -- as in so many areas in mainstream cruising, I think NCL is again just the vanguard of what will be coming -- mandatory crew service charges. Folks, in the last 15 years the "base" price of a cruise has barely budged. What has changed is that some things that USED to be included, or optional, are now separately charged. Like it, love it, hate it -- it is what it is and it doesn't seem likely to change -- alternative restaurants, even with a surcharge, are extremely popular (as evidenced by this concept spreading from NCL in the late 90's to just about every mainstream line today).

 

I also disagree that "many" of NCL's customers are "offended" by this charge -- some SMALL percentage of those who a) cruise NCL, then b) manage to find this board, and then c) register and start posting here are "offended." That is a miniscule proportion of the cruising public, and almost certainly statistically insignificant. I believe not just "most," but the vast majority of cruisers never think about tipping -- they tip when it's explained how they "should," but if it's auto-added, they will pay it and never think about it again. Some percentage of them might be "offended" at "having" to do so, but those who have done even a modicum of research about cruise pricing will just put it in the "cruise cost" category along with port charges and fuel surcharges, and forget about it. For the sake of those who work on cruise ships these days, I really hope that comes to pass -- that tipping the service people on the ship becomes a "given," thus sparing us all 300+ post threads here debating a practice which in fact has been CUSTOMARY for years and years.

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BTW-I have my own preferences and thoughts (which I'm not shy about stating), about those who decide to save a few $ but honestly I have no intent to try to pursuade anyone to my way of thinking. It wouldn't work anyway.

 

You can't change a leopard's spots. I wonder why someone would come on a cruise, and spend all that money, and then decide that saving $70 in tips is important to them. What - do they need the money? What about the hundreds of dollars they just burned up on a cruise? Why not just save all those hundreds to begin with and skip the cruise? That's what gets me!

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Why is it that something so simple be made so complicated? It doesnt take a Philadelphia Lawyer to figure this out. NCL has made it completlely simple. I cant belive this thread is still alive. The horse is dead, leave it alone!!!

 

 

No need to be a cranky bear.:p Just ignore this thread and go on to the ones you enjoy.

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HUH?? Where did that come from. I'm one of the anonymous folks who have posted the exact amounts of SOME of the tips I have given. I'm quite willing to say exactly why I did it - INFORMATION.

 

If anyone else has been as confused, uncertain, waivering as I have been pre-cruise and during the cruise, they need numbers. Not a vaguely worded "generous tip" or "modest tip", but plain, firm numbers. I wasn't nearly as comfortable with my tipping during my cruise as I was weeks later.

 

I could have seriously hurt the feelings of my wonderful butler if I had tipped the amount I had read on CruiseCritic instead of what I did. Do I think he would have treated me any differently or let me know in any way that he was disappointed? NO! I think I would be treated exactly the same. But, the information I learned about the butlers' hopes was important and needed to get out there for those who care about how they feel. I suppose because it isn't a big concentrated activity like a shore excursion, it's easy to let the significance of these wonderful servers fade into the background. But for me, an obligatory cruise I was dreading became one of the best ever.

 

Would I be as honest with my neighbors or friends as I am with the anonymity of being online? I don't know. If they sincerely asked, perhaps. Anyone who is my friend would probably think the amounts were modestly reasonable and not think any more of it. I'm the cheapskate in our group.:p

 

For most of us over-scheduled folks, there is only one reason to come on this board and post - to help others. I write what I do, not for the 10 folks who want to argue, but the 100 who are doing the same thing I usually do= lurk and learn.

 

cruznut ~ not to worry. I too took some flak when I answered a thread regarding tipping the butler quite a while ago.

 

I, too, was trying to help. I'm sure you helped the people who were looking for an honest answer.

 

Remember, that ignore button is useful at times;)

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I have a different take with NCL's having moved this provision into the COC and out of any "smell" of it being "optional" -- as in so many areas in mainstream cruising, I think NCL is again just the vanguard of what will be coming -- mandatory crew service charges. Folks, in the last 15 years the "base" price of a cruise has barely budged. What has changed is that some things that USED to be included, or optional, are now separately charged. Like it, love it, hate it -- it is what it is and it doesn't seem likely to change -- alternative restaurants, even with a surcharge, are extremely popular (as evidenced by this concept spreading from NCL in the late 90's to just about every mainstream line today).

 

I also disagree that "many" of NCL's customers are "offended" by this charge -- some SMALL percentage of those who a) cruise NCL, then b) manage to find this board, and then c) register and start posting here are "offended." That is a miniscule proportion of the cruising public, and almost certainly statistically insignificant. I believe not just "most," but the vast majority of cruisers never think about tipping -- they tip when it's explained how they "should," but if it's auto-added, they will pay it and never think about it again. Some percentage of them might be "offended" at "having" to do so, but those who have done even a modicum of research about cruise pricing will just put it in the "cruise cost" category along with port charges and fuel surcharges, and forget about it. For the sake of those who work on cruise ships these days, I really hope that comes to pass -- that tipping the service people on the ship becomes a "given," thus sparing us all 300+ post threads here debating a practice which in fact has been CUSTOMARY for years and years.

This is a very interesting change by NCL. At the meet and greet on our September cruise on the Majesty, I was surprised at how many senior staff are aware of Cruise Critics. Granted, they may not post frequently but they do monitor the boards. I did mention how tiresome some topics such as this one about the automated tiping are. With a sigh they just shook their head and said it is really a very small but vocal segment compared to the vast majority of passengers who don't care.

As many of you have noticed when you dine at restaurants or use other service functions, many businesses have instituted an automatic fee of some kind. This is a trend that I have noticed that is growing over the last 15 to 20 years.

I think it is significant that NCL is moving the auto tipping into the basic contract. I agree with Mbisson and Electicron that now it is going to be more difficult to remove or dispute it.

I think the above posting by MichellP was just terriffic. Very reasonable and calm. The points made are very valid.

The bottom line is that you are comfortable with the auto tipping or you are not. I personally prefer this method as I feel it is the fairest system to the hard working crew. If anyone goes beyond my expectations, which is frequent, I simply give a little extra tip which is appreciated.

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I agree with Mbisson and Electicron that now it is going to be more difficult to remove or dispute it.

.

 

 

Good post Writeratsea. I'm waiting to see if NCL enforces it though. I've a hunch there might be a period of time where they let people know their new policy and they remove it anyhow. And then, once they feel sure that the word has gotten out, I expect they will say "no we can't remove that fee, but if you let us know what the problem is, we'll do our best to remedy the situation"

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And then, once they feel sure that the word has gotten out, I expect they will say "no we can't remove that fee, but if you let us know what the problem is, we'll do our best to remedy the situation"

And the sooner the better, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Maybe it'll chase away all the cheapskates who look all over for reasons to save a few bucks by stiffing the crew--and to other boards here on Cruise Critic, so we won't have to read their blather about how service will by definition be poor unless they are able to deliver their tips personally.

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Over the years some nice things have been said about me and I imagine some not so nice things, but this is the first time I know of that I and those like me have been dismissed as "statistically insignificant." 'Poof,' he and his kind are gone; that takes care of that!

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We've gone beyond tenderized; we're now at ground horse meat.

 

 

Since this isn't Europe or ASIA, I think that's what I just gave my dog to eat. (I don't really know that what I said is pertinent to anything, but it's the truth) :D

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LOL...good one!

 

Hope you now haven't turned this thread (by mentioning meat) into a "food" thread;)

 

The only thing WORSE than a tipping thread is a food thread:eek:

 

I can think of a couple of folks that would swear they ate horse on their NCL cruise. Want me to notify them of this turn of events? ;)

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Congrats on the edocs, and thats correct the kids crew people are not in the pool.
Personally the only crew I have ever seen in the pool were the cruise director and the CD's assistants. And the only reason they were in the pool is because someone threw them in. I also check the pool everyday for tips, and I never see any. So I doubt that any of the crew actually puts any tips in the pool.
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I recently sailed on POH and found the service substandard. I went to the customer relations desk and asked the auto tips be removed and they did so without asking why. They couldn't care less.
That is why the service is substandard.
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Americans are the most generous people on earth. When I was young, a long time ago, Americans routinely tipped 10%. Then one day, someone suggested that we all tip 15% and almost everyone did! Some even started tipping 20%. They didn't have to, no one forced them, they just did it out of the kindness of their hearts.

While in a foreign country, I picked up a booklet issued by the largest travel company in that country, which set out the tips expected in various other countries. None was more than 10% except America and some were less.

The vast majority of passengers on an inexpensive cruise line are middle class (the rich have their own cruise lines) and cruise line service ordinarily is, or at least should be, far better than at most middle class family restaurants at home.

So why would a cruise line have to "twist the arms" of Americans (the vast majority of cruise passengers are Americans) with a fixed service fee to make them tip properly? Is the fixed service fee an admission of a level of service that will disappoint most middle class passengers? Temperate opinions on all sides are invited.

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Americans are the most generous people on earth. When I was young, a long time ago, Americans routinely tipped 10%. Then one day, someone suggested that we all tip 15% and almost everyone did! Some even started tipping 20%. They didn't have to, no one forced them, they just did it out of the kindness of their hearts.

While in a foreign country, I picked up a booklet issued by the largest travel company in that country, which set out the tips expected in various other countries. None was more than 10% except America and some were less.

The vast majority of passengers on an inexpensive cruise line are middle class (the rich have their own cruise lines) and cruise line service ordinarily is, or at least should be, far better than at most middle class family restaurants at home.

So why would a cruise line have to "twist the arms" of Americans (the vast majority of cruise passengers are Americans) with a fixed service fee to make them tip properly? Is the fixed service fee an admission of a level of service that will disappoint most middle class passengers? Temperate opinions on all sides are invited.

The problem is the issue between how cruise lines traditionally handle tips and NCL's Freestyle dining.

 

Traditionally tips were handed out at the end of the cruise. Since everyone had the same wait staff and cabin attendants the entire cruise, you just gave your tips to the same people you had seen the entire week.

 

But with NCL's Freestyle, most people do not have the same wait staff for each meal (though you do have the same cabin attendants). So, who do you give your tips to? There is no desire to have 2000 people running around the last night looking for the waiter that served them four nights ago. So, NCL turned to this auto service charge (or whatever they call it) and the money is pooled. Then everyone gets their share.

 

The other option is to tip each person every night. But who wants to carry around $140 in singles and quarters so you can tip your waiter $3.50 and your assistant waiter $2.00 every night. Again, the auto service charge handles this issue.

 

But like any system, it is not perfect. The first problem is that everyone is looking at it like a replacement for tipping, and tipping is by definition, optional. However, the auto service charge is not optional.

 

So some suggest just adding it to the price of the cruise and it will no longer be an issue. However, unless everyone does this, it puts NCL at a competitive disadvantage. If an inside cabin costs $700 per week, NCL would loose customers if it lists the price at $770 while other cruise lines list the price as $700.

 

There is another problem. Some people do avoid the dining room the last night so they can avoid paying the tips. Thus by changing to an auto service charge NCL hopes to avoid the failure to pay tips issue.

 

However, there are some people that remember the "good old days" of cruising, when tip envelopes were handed out at the end of the cruise. These people like to give the tips to the crew at the end of the cruise. With the auto service charge there are no tip envelopes to hand out, and these people miss that.

 

So they want to take the auto service charge off so they can hand out tips personally. However, as this thread makes clear, some people view this as a power trip, and soon the flaming starts.

 

Having read all 300+ posts in the last 24 hours, it is clear to me that everyone has valid points, and how you view the tipping issue depends on your own personal point of view. Unfortunately, as this thread points out, many of the posters are unwilling to accept any point of view that they don't agree with.

 

I have been on one NCL cruise and I have another booked. I ate in the main dining room once. The waiter was terrible. Fortunately the assistant waiter was very good, or some at our table would not have eaten. I tried to get the assistant waiter's name so I could make a positive comment about her, but she was moving too fast. I could not get the waiter's name to complain, even if I wanted to, because after serving the main meal, he was never seen again.

 

All my other meals were in alternative restaurants or at the buffet. The service and food in the extra cost restaurants was very good, and I left a little extra tip via the charge slip I had to sign. At the end of the week I left my auto tips on and left the two room stewards (I had two, I don't know why) an extra $10 each.

 

I'll do something similar on my next cruise. Basically I just try to work within the system so it is fair to everyone. I like the auto tips because I don't like having to carry around all that extra money. Then I leave something extra for those that went above and beyond. I have never felt the need to reduce or remove the tips because I have always had what I felt to be at least average service.

 

I don't play the game of how can I make sure the person who served me gets to keep it all. If the system allows me to charge the tips to my on board account, then that is what I am going to do. If it means the person who served me has to share it, so be it. I am not the employer and I don't make the rules. If the server doesn't like it, then they are free to look for other employment. Besides, who is more important, the person who carried the plate or the person who cooked what is on it?

 

Besides, the best thing you can do for someone who made your vacation more enjoyable is to make a positive comment about that person. Look at it this way, if you slip that person an extra $20, they are $20 richer. If you make a comment that gets that person promoted, then that person is $20 (or more) richer every week. Make note of the ones who do a good job and make your pleasure known. In the end, that will mean more to the person than an extra $20.

 

That is the one thing I would do differently next time. I would have stopped the assistant waiter, told her I appreciated her extra effort, asked her for her name, and made sure management knew of her extra effort.

 

In fact, I asked about this on my next (non-NCL) cruise. I had a chance to speak with the cruise director for several minutes. He told me that I didn't need a name because they new who worked in which cabin (on my next cruise it was my cabin attendant that I felt was doing a great job). Okay, this works fine for cabins and set seating, but not for freestyle when the waiter and waitress change each meal. But the CD did confirm what I had read, the best thing you can do for someone is make a positive comment.

 

In the end you have to do what you feel comfortable with. If you feel someone deserves a bigger tip, then give them a bigger tip. If you feel that someone did not earn a tip, then don't give that person a tip. Don't worry about what everyone else says or does. You do what you believe is right. If they want to pay your tips for you, then they can decide how the tips can be handled. If you have to pay the tips out of your own pocket, then you decide how the tips should be handled. Just handle it as a personal matter. Don't go on some public forum and claim you gave everyone an extra $50 or you figured out how to avoid tipping all together. It is nobody's business except your own how you handle tipping.

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Cuizer2:Thank you for a more thoughtful reply than any I can remember of the hundreds we have read, including my own. (I may be wronging someone whose contribution I don't remember at this moment.) However, I do have one reservation about it and that is your not distinguishing between auto-tipping with possible modification and a fixed service charge. Auto-tipping seems to me to be a necessity in the freestyle dining environment, a coercive fixed service charge seems to me to be an affront to the passenger rather than a necessity. I have never had occasion to reduce a tip below the auto-tipping level and I hope I never shall, but I do not like the idea that if such an occasion arose, my hands would be tied. I dislike handing out the tips personally, but I would like to be able to exclude someone who has made me dislike him in favor of the others. Reporting him is a nuclear option I can not imagine myself using. To remove passenger satisfaction from the tipping equation to deal with a few "freeriders" seems to me to endanger the cruise experience. Narrowing the question to that extent, what do you think?

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Besides, the best thing you can do for someone who made your vacation more enjoyable is to make a positive comment about that person. Look at it this way, if you slip that person an extra $20, they are $20 richer. If you make a comment that gets that person promoted, then that person is $20 (or more) richer every week. Make note of the ones who do a good job and make your pleasure known. In the end, that will mean more to the person than an extra $20.

 

That is the one thing I would do differently next time. I would have stopped the assistant waiter, told her I appreciated her extra effort, asked her for her name, and made sure management knew of her extra effort.

 

 

 

I have not read thru this entire thread but this is an excellent response. I have managed several hundred employees throughout the years and when I received glowing letters about specific people, they stood out...and the 'pat on the back, what an outstanding job you've done always makes everyone walk away feeling great'. Although I probably would have also slipped a few extra's into this person's palm.

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I have not read thru this entire thread but this is an excellent response. I have managed several hundred employees throughout the years and when I received glowing letters about specific people, they stood out...and the 'pat on the back, what an outstanding job you've done always makes everyone walk away feeling great'. Although I probably would have also slipped a few extra's into this person's palm.
I am not saying don't tip. The point I am trying to make is that there are more importing things than the size of a tip.
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Over the years some nice things have been said about me and I imagine some not so nice things, but this is the first time I know of that I and those like me have been dismissed as "statistically insignificant." 'Poof,' he and his kind are gone; that takes care of that!

Poof, oh I wish I had the worlock like powers to perform feats of magic such as that. But thanks for the good laugh. I didn't imply that you and others who shared your opinions were "statistically insignificant", all passengers who have paid their hard earned money to cruise deserve respect and consideration. I merely reiterated what comments that the staff expressed. I really do think that the discription of a small but vocal minority is an accurate one. When I talk to the hotel director at the next meet and greet, I shall casually ask approximately how many people try to remove the auto tip. It would interesting if I could get a hard number or even a ballpark one.

Like you, I do enjoy handing a tip directly to someone who has done a terrific job. But I think you would agree that the mechanics of freestyle cruising make that impractical. I dislike the automatic surcharges added to restaurants and bar tabs as I feel that I should mete out the gratuities in proportion to the level of service that I received.

Whether it is laziness or convenience, I just love the concept of one flat and reasonable $10 daily fee covers the crew, whether or not they are seen or not seen. I don't have to worry about missing anyone, or tipping too little and so forth. All that guilt and anxiety is poofed away with the blanket charge.

The problem is that if you disagree with the concept of the auto gratuity, then you are lumped in with all the cheapos and freeriders. That is not fair either, but how can you measure the sincereity. I worked my way through college in the restaurant industry. I have professionally cooked since I was 14 years old and I know I will never have to worry about getting a job if I wanted one. So it is a good skill. I have also waited on tables and have seen both the generous and skinflint sides of people.

It is strange, but out of the hundreds of good tips I got, the times I got stiffed or left 15 cents stands out and still makes my blood boil. 15 cents, how could someone be so ignorant and that occured 30 years ago on a $26 tab, the details and the people are still crystal clear in my memory. Probably because I was so hurt by the indifference and lack of respect.

Obviously for many reasons, this is a hot button issue that resurfaces every so often. It is never going away and it will always be a dead horse that doesn't die, no matter how much people wish otherwise.

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To remove passenger satisfaction from the tipping equation to deal with a few "freeriders" seems to me to endanger the cruise experience. Narrowing the question to that extent, what do you think?

 

Again, no system is perfect. Sometimes by solving one problem others are created. Look at what is happening with voting. After the 2000 elections people were looking for a replacement for punch cards. So some went high tech. And sure enough, one problem was solved and a new problem(s) was created.

 

Did you do any flying before September 11, 2001? Getting from the curb to the airplane used to be a lot easier. Sure, 99.99% of the people do not try to blow up or crash the plane. But to prevent that 0.01 percent, everybody gets inconvenienced.

 

So, NCL comes up with this new idea called Freestyle dining. Great, but what about the tips??? So, NCL comes up with a new method of tipping to take care of the problem of who gets what tips. Okay, instead of tips they call it a service charge. Kind of like shipping and handling (which is basically a mandatory service charge).

 

As they say in Jamaica, "No problem." But the service charge replaced the tips, anyone with any cruise experience can see that. Tips are given in recognition of service rendered (to a limited extent - for example, it is okay to tip the taxi driver, but not the ship driver). Some people believe that by removing the tip incentive you remove the service incentive. I don't agree with this group, but that is a different matter. The fact is, some people do believe that this is true.

 

So, your question is, does changing the tips to a service charge (removing the passenger's ability to adjust the tips, oops, I mean service charge, down) endanger the cruise experience. I believe you mean, will it negatively impact service, since the cruise experience is made up of a lot more than just the delivery of food and cleaning services.

 

First of all, the only thing that is limited here is the passenger's ability to adjust the tips down. You can still tip more, though I believe it would have to be in cash (since I believe the tips are pooled, and increasing your service charge would thus increase the size of the pool - not line the pocket of your favorite waiter). So there is an incentive to provide superior service, since it could result in an extra cash tip.

 

Some people believe that there are crew that think, I'm going to get my $1000 per month (or whatever they get - the amount is not important to this issue), so I'm not going to bust my tail for a few extra bucks. And you know what, out of 1000+ crew, I'm sure there are those that think this way.

 

But then again, where do you find the best service? It is on the ships where there is no tipping. So the tipping incentive is not the controlling factor in my opinion.

 

So, as you can see, I don't think changing the tips to a mandatory service charge is the problem. As this answer is long, I just want to point out that this is my direct answer to your question. I don't think changing the tips to a service charge that is hard or impossible to adjust is what controls the quality of service on a cruise ship. As noted below, I believe is it how hard each service provider has to work to provide an acceptable level of service that is controlling.

 

Still, one would think that NCL's system could be improved. Lets take a closer look at this.

 

You eat in the main restaurant everyday and end up with my old waiter (and hopefully my old assistant waiter). You go to the guest relations desk and you say, my waiter stunk and my assistant waiter was great. I think the waiter should get less in tips and the assistant waiter should get more. So guest relations makes a note of this and at the end of the week the proper adjustments are made. This works great if you are the only one who makes this request.

 

But you will not be the only one who makes this request. So now the ship has to hire three more people just to kept track of all the changes that are being made to the service charge. And another three accountants to do the math that will be necessary at the end of the week to figure out who should get what. And how is the crew supposed to figure out if they were paid correctly? As you can see, allowing 500 people to make changes to the service charge results in a nightmare. When it was just you handing out just your own tips it was easy. It would require a full time staff to do this on behalf of all the passengers.

 

Okay, changes to the service charge is not a good idea. What else could be done? NCL could go back to the old system. Each person hands out their own tips. As I noted before, the idea of 2000 people running around trying to find the waiters from five nights ago, and four nights ago, and three nights ago ... just doesn't work.

 

Tips could be handled just like at any restaurant - after every meal. Since $2 and $3 dollar bills are rare, this means everyone has to have a generous supply of $1 dollar bills plus quarters (since the waiter gets about $3.50 per day and there are no half dollar bills). Try running around one day with 50 $1 dollar bills and two rolls of quarters (each roll is $10) and see if you like it. I don't, and I'll bet I'm not the only one. Tipping after every meal is not the answer.

 

So what could work? Perhaps a voucher after every meal? You put down how much you want to be charged for the tips for this meal for your waiter and assistant waiter. At the end of the week, each collects the amount you have authorized. I am not saying that this is a good system, as it would solve one problem and create another (paper work and accounting). But you have to come up with some system that allows for accountability after ever meal, because you will likely have a different waiter and assistant waiter every meal. As this is clearly going to create paper work one way or another, you can see why NCL has gone to the system it has.

 

So how do you increase service? A promise of a better tip is some incentive (as is the possibility of loosing a tip), but think about it. Suppose I want better service and I am willing to pay for it. I slip the waiter a $20 and indicate that there is more where that came from. You also want better service and so you do the same thing. In fact, everyone does (okay, this is not real world, but I am simply trying to make a point here). So, who does the waiter favor with the better service when everyone is offering the same incentive?

 

Short of starting a bidding war among the passengers for service, the way to improve service is to do what the five star ships do. Increase staff. Who is going to get better service, the 40 passengers all being served by the same two people or the 16 passengers all being served by the same two people? Okay, as many people have already noted, increasing staff will increase the cost of the cruise. So, in order to keep the cost of the cruise reasonable, some sacrifices have to be made.

 

This is reality, and it works in more areas than just service. Want to decrease the crime rate, increase the number of police. Now the police don't work for free, so someone has to pay their salaries. Any tax payers out there? How much more are you willing to pay to decrease the crime rate? How much more are you willing to pay to get better service on a cruise ship?

 

Now there may be many factors that prevent you from moving to a neighborhood with a lower crime rate. But if you are after better service on a cruise, there are real options available to you right now. The bottom line is, all the options for better service require that you pay more for the cruise. Are you willing to do that?

 

If so, then either try one of the cruise lines that have a better staff ratio, or if you want to stick with NCL, get into one of the suites, where you get access to more staff than those in the regular cabins - like ...

  • Priority embarkation
  • Butler and concierge service
  • Butler to unpack your luggage

  • French champagne, gourmet hors d’oeuvres, bottled water and sodas

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