What if you don't like formal wear?

[PianoManNYC]

Trying to get back into PianoMans good books Gerry !

 

I insist on remaining a neutral party and don't wish to be drawn into any virtual drama. I have enough of that in "real" life!:D

[stopgo]

Well, I did not feel run off by you Gerrym, really. I check back and lurk from time to time. I do see that the tenor of discourse over here remains little changed.:D

 

My take on the issue of "keeping up standards" is as follows - don't go to a French restaurant and expect a pizza. Know what the custom is and if it doesn't suit you, choose differently. It is a matter of respect for your fellow passengers to follow the dress code. If it seems a chore or you don't care about dressing for dinner, find a brand that fits your taste/lifestyle rather than whinging and seeking to have the line fit you, rather than vice verse. Of course, the corporate marketers will figure out what fills the most beds, but those who want to keep a more dignified evening atmosphere should hold their ground and resist the dressing down trend. Losing battle? Probably. But don't go quietly. And don't apologise.

Again you need to read the O/P, Fred wasn't complaining about dressing up.

[stopgo]

I insist on remaining a neutral party and don't wish to be drawn into any virtual drama. I have enough of that in "real" life!:D

Its okay PianoMan I understand, from what I remember it was a rather delicate issue.

[Gerrym]

I insist on remaining a neutral party and don't wish to be drawn into any virtual drama. I have enough of that in "real" life!:D

 

 

Absolutely the right appraoch!

 

 

Cheers

 

Gerry

[Gerrym]

Well, I did not feel run off by you Gerrym, really.

 

 

 

Why would you?

 

 

Cheers

 

Gerry

[Keep Up Standards]

You recieved " forum flak " because you were wrong with your assumptions in your post, I suggest you re-read the orginal post. Fred was not going to flout the dress code, and was anxous not to.

 

Threads move on and I was not responding to Fred, nor assuming that she would flout the dress code. I was responding to those who had subsequently said, in effect, "Doesn't matter, wear what you like." In fact it does matter, because people who take that advice will look silly, and will offend the majority of other passengers.

 

I am under no illusion that the 'forum flak' occurs because there are too many people on internet forums who cannot cope with disagreement or contrary opinions without resorting to personalisation and overt or veiled insults. It reflects the paucity of their own arguments, or their ability to express them.

 

Dress codes are an emotive issues with regard to cruising. The arguments against them are in my view founded largely on ageism, anti-elitism, and inverted snobbery, as evidenced by some of the comments above. There are plenty of opportunities to enjoy cruising in a more casual environment and without dressing up, for those who prefer it that way. Accordingly it is not necessary to dumb-down lines like P&O. I wish, as someone has suggested, that Carnival would float off Ventura and Oceana to a differentiated brand -- "P&O Lite" ? -- and leave the rest as they are. That should please everyone I would have thought.

[daiB]

Threads move on and I was not responding to Fred, nor assuming that she would flout the dress code. I was responding to those who had subsequently said, in effect, "Doesn't matter, wear what you like." In fact it does matter, because people who take that advice will look silly, and will offend the majority of other passengers.

 

I am under no illusion that the 'forum flak' occurs because there are too many people on internet forums who cannot cope with disagreement or contrary opinions without resorting to personalisation and overt or veiled insults. It reflects the paucity of their own arguments, or their ability to express them.

 

Dress codes are an emotive issues with regard to cruising. The arguments against them are in my view founded largely on ageism, anti-elitism, and inverted snobbery, as evidenced by some of the comments above. There are plenty of opportunities to enjoy cruising in a more casual environment and without dressing up, for those who prefer it that way. Accordingly it is not necessary to dumb-down lines like P&O. I wish, as someone has suggested, that Carnival would float off Ventura and Oceana to a differentiated brand -- "P&O Lite" ? -- and leave the rest as they are. That should please everyone I would have thought.

 

 

But not the growing number of P&O cruisers who like Ventura and Oceana.

 

 

:):)Happy Cruising:):)

 

 

 

 

:cool:

 

 

Dai

[Single Cruiser]

Threads move on and I was not responding to Fred, nor assuming that she would flout the dress code. I was responding to those who had subsequently said, in effect, "Doesn't matter, wear what you like." In fact it does matter, because people who take that advice will look silly, and will offend the majority of other passengers.

 

I am under no illusion that the 'forum flak' occurs because there are too many people on internet forums who cannot cope with disagreement or contrary opinions without resorting to personalisation and overt or veiled insults. It reflects the paucity of their own arguments, or their ability to express them.

 

Dress codes are an emotive issues with regard to cruising. The arguments against them are in my view founded largely on ageism, anti-elitism, and inverted snobbery, as evidenced by some of the comments above. There are plenty of opportunities to enjoy cruising in a more casual environment and without dressing up, for those who prefer it that way. Accordingly it is not necessary to dumb-down lines like P&O. I wish, as someone has suggested, that Carnival would float off Ventura and Oceana to a differentiated brand -- "P&O Lite" ? -- and leave the rest as they are. That should please everyone I would have thought.

 

Just on the points I've highlighted.

 

With the value of sterling vs $ many UK passengers prefer ships which have sterling onboard, UK power sockets in cabins and not announcements in 5 different languages.

 

Currently the UK casual market is serviced by Ocean Village, Island Cruises and Thomson cruises.

 

Both OV ships (with an average of 78,000 UK passengers a year), one of the Island ships (Island Star with average 48,000 passengers a year) and Thomson Calypso (20,000 a year) are all disappearing in the next 18 months.

 

For these 146,000 cruise passengers how many other UK sterling onboard brands are available?

 

Some will go to NCl, some Carnival, some RCI but if just 40-50% go to P&O thats around 70,000 passengers a year, average 2 week cruise = 2,600 potential casual passengers each cruise fortnight heading to P&O!

[PianoManNYC]

Threads move on and I was not responding to Fred, nor assuming that she would flout the dress code. I was responding to those who had subsequently said, in effect, "Doesn't matter, wear what you like." In fact it does matter, because people who take that advice will look silly, and will offend the majority of other passengers.

 

Ditto.

[PianoManNYC]

Why would you?

 

 

Cheers

 

Gerry

 

Precisely. Cheers back at 'ya!

[Keep Up Standards]

Just on the points I've highlighted.

 

With the value of sterling vs $ many UK passengers prefer ships which have sterling onboard, UK power sockets in cabins and not announcements in 5 different languages.

 

Currently the UK casual market is serviced by Ocean Village, Island Cruises and Thomson cruises.

 

Both OV ships (with an average of 78,000 UK passengers a year), one of the Island ships (Island Star with average 48,000 passengers a year) and Thomson Calypso (20,000 a year) are all disappearing in the next 18 months.

 

For these 146,000 cruise passengers how many other UK sterling onboard brands are available?

 

Some will go to NCl, some Carnival, some RCI but if just 40-50% go to P&O thats around 70,000 passengers a year, average 2 week cruise = 2,600 potential casual passengers each cruise fortnight heading to P&O!

 

Fair points, and no doubt P&O/Carnival are hoping that you are about with the 40%-50% (in fact they probably hope to retain more than that). But Ocean Village has failed for some reason, and it appears that casual cruising is not a great commercial success in the UK market. But are a great number of the people who used OV going to be willing and able to pay P&O prices, especially during a recession ? Nevertheless it reinforces the point about differentiating the ships. Whilst they are all under the mainstream P&O umbrella the waters are muddied. Some people are likely to go on Ventura and not like her because she is in their view too dumbed down. Others may go on Oriana and find her too stuffy and formal for their liking. P&O is trying to have its cake and eat it, and its business model and marketing strategy appears to be in a mess. It may end up alienating a significant number of its current clientele, both those preferring a more formal cruise experience, and those preferring the more casual alternative.

[daiB]

Just on the points I've highlighted.

 

With the value of sterling vs $ many UK passengers prefer ships which have sterling onboard, UK power sockets in cabins and not announcements in 5 different languages.

 

Currently the UK casual market is serviced by Ocean Village, Island Cruises and Thomson cruises.

 

Both OV ships (with an average of 78,000 UK passengers a year), one of the Island ships (Island Star with average 48,000 passengers a year) and Thomson Calypso (20,000 a year) are all disappearing in the next 18 months.

 

For these 146,000 cruise passengers how many other UK sterling onboard brands are available?

 

Some will go to NCl, some Carnival, some RCI but if just 40-50% go to P&O thats around 70,000 passengers a year, average 2 week cruise = 2,600 potential casual passengers each cruise fortnight heading to P&O!

 

 

No deals then:D:D

 

 

Dai

[Single Cruiser]

I think the brand hasn't failed but the ships were all hand-me down, old (most built in the late 80's), inefficient and by modern standards nowhere near the onboard facilities available on RCL, NCL or P&O ships.

 

Originally they were trying to get hold of Grand/Golden Princess which are among the oldest in the Princess fleet.

 

I can only guess someone looked at the fact the P&O fleet was expanding with Ventura and Azura and so extra berths to fill. It doesn't take too many leaps of imagination in the board room for someone to suggest hmm.. lets make Ventura and Oceana more family-friendly, start with dropping semi-formal and ....

 

Like others have said I have no problems with people like to dress up, just I look awful in a Tuxedo! :rolleyes:

 

P&O Lite or P&O Family sounds good but why waste a good established brand name is what I say. :D

[PianoManNYC]

Like others have said I have no problems with people like to dress up, just I look awful in a Tuxedo! :rolleyes:

 

I don't believe you. Every last man I have ever seen looks better in a tuxedo. Ask any lady. If you feel uncomfortable in a tuxedo, it's likely due to fit. And most likely the shirt. Skip the starchy, scratchy wing collar and go with the much more elegant spread collar dress shirt. With a self-tied bow tie, black, natch!:D

[bobarnie]

Threads move on and I was not responding to Fred, nor assuming that she would flout the dress code. I was responding to those who had subsequently said, in effect, "Doesn't matter, wear what you like." In fact it does matter, because people who take that advice will look silly, and will offend the majority of other passengers.

 

I am under no illusion that the 'forum flak' occurs because there are too many people on internet forums who cannot cope with disagreement or contrary opinions without resorting to personalisation and overt or veiled insults. It reflects the paucity of their own arguments, or their ability to express them.

 

Dress codes are an emotive issues with regard to cruising. The arguments against them are in my view founded largely on ageism, anti-elitism, and inverted snobbery, as evidenced by some of the comments above. There are plenty of opportunities to enjoy cruising in a more casual environment and without dressing up, for those who prefer it that way. Accordingly it is not necessary to dumb-down lines like P&O. I wish, as someone has suggested, that Carnival would float off Ventura and Oceana to a differentiated brand -- "P&O Lite" ? -- and leave the rest as they are. That should please everyone I would have thought.

 

 

I fail to see how what someone is wearing can be offensive to others. Those who are offended by someone wearing a smart shirt and trousers really do need to get a life ! I would of thought in these trying times that people have more important things to worry about. As for P and O re-branding Ventura and Oceana because 5% do not like to dress up on formal nights is ridiculous. If you do not like Ventura and Oceana the simple answer would be to not travel on them. I am looking forward to dressing up when I go on Ventura in November but at the same time I would not think any less of those who did not wear a tux. People's personalities are far more important than their attire.

[Gerrym]

i don't believe you. Every last man i have ever seen looks better in a tuxedo. Ask any lady. If you feel uncomfortable in a tuxedo, it's likely due to fit. And most likely the shirt. Skip the starchy, scratchy wing collar and go with the much more elegant spread collar dress shirt. With a self-tied bow tie, black, natch!:d

 

 

absolutely !!!!!

 

:)

[lostinvegas]

Sorry am a bit late to this party but.

 

When myself and my partner decided to cruise with P&O we were a little concerned about the dressing up. A quick visit to TK max and everything was taken care of. We now quite enjoy that part of cruising, and do quite a bit of shopping before we go. So I would say give it a go.

 

Ventura is nothing like Butlins afload, as someone else said earlier. You will find "most" people will be dressed up on formal nights. We used the Exchange and Metropolis bar predominatly and on formal nights all most everyone was in formal wear. Our friends ate in the waterside several times for dinner and said there were lots people in casual dress dining in that venue.

 

I think this:

Being kind and accommodating to others is far more important and after reading some of these replies I think some people have forgotten that !

is one of the best posts on this forum in a long time. Honestly reading through this topic took me back to the days of being in the school playground.

 

Chris

[balf]

P&O have obviously made up their mind about dress code and other dress issues on Ventura, by not making the code shipwide and by tollerating t shirt, shorts and sandals in the Waterside and American Diner in the evening.

 

David.

[lostinvegas]

I did not go in the Waterside at dinner time so cannot comment on the above. Our experience of the dress code on Ventura was no different to when we first cruised with P&O 7 years ago.

 

Chris

[Keep Up Standards]

I fail to see how what someone is wearing can be offensive to others. Those who are offended by someone wearing a smart shirt and trousers really do need to get a life ! I would of thought in these trying times that people have more important things to worry about. As for P and O re-branding Ventura and Oceana because 5% do not like to dress up on formal nights is ridiculous. If you do not like Ventura and Oceana the simple answer would be to not travel on them. I am looking forward to dressing up when I go on Ventura in November but at the same time I would not think any less of those who did not wear a tux. People's personalities are far more important than their attire.

 

Look what a pr*t Gordon Brown used to look when he attended the Lord Mayor's dinner in a lounge suit when everyone else was in white tie and tails. He has now realised that of course and does not repeat that kind of faux pas as PM.

 

It is offensive if people deliberately cock a snook at the dress codes, mildly so, but offensive none the less. It's because not only do such people look a bit of a p**t, but above all they don't care if they look a bit of a p**t. Most people's enjoyment of formal nights is to be among like minded souls in an atmosphere of elegant refinement, all too seldom available ashore these days. If someone shows up in a checked Ben Sherman shirt and chinos with a woman in spangly t-shirt and jeans then it does tend to spoil things a bit. It's analogous to a zit on an otherwise attractive face. On the smart casual nights, when everyone does the same, then the check sportshirt etc is of course fine, for the same reason (though I still have reservations about jeans in the evenings). And a cruise is generally such a stress free event that no I'm afraid we do not in fact have anything else to worry about !

 

There's a lot more to the branding issue with Ventura etc than just dress codes. It's about the sort of cruise experience and clientele that P&O appears to be trying to attract, which is not compatible with that of the more traditional ships.

[Noblemount]

I know what one reply says about Formal Wear and that you are OK to use the Buffet on Formal Nights dressed Casually, but if you read P&O's Instructions on Dress Codes It reads 'In the evening ALL Bars and restaurants comply with the dress of the Evening Ref Page 221 Last Paragraph Latest 2009 Brochure Dated March 2009.In other words Dress Code applies for the entire ship and for the whole of the evening. Unfortunately P&O do not always enforce dress codes.I also think if you do not 'Dress Up' you will most definately be in the minority and on some P&O ships you will not be allowed in Certain Bars / Restaurants unless appropriately dressed.I really would try to make the effort it is all part of Cruising.If you are so against dressing up Try Ocean Village Cruises.

[Noblemount]

Regarding your question are there Public Areas where you will not feel Underdressed . Quite frankly NO .We have been on Ventura and it is probably one of P&O's most relaxed Ship but Dress Codes do apply not only for Passegers but also for Crew, Bar Staff, Waiters etc .When we were on board in Jan there was a Family of nine. Parents, Grandparents and Kids they followed the Dress Code and on formal nights and looked the Bees Knees.

[Single Cruiser]

If you are so against dressing up Try Ocean Village Cruises.

 

I think you missed a point here, OV will be no more in 18mths and they are being targetted to switch to P&O so why its a minority now these whole threads are about how its likely to change.. Mob rule and all that..

 

As the song by Fun Boy Three - the Lunatics (have taken over the Asylum).

[LibraLass41]

NCL would be a much better choice for the OV / I don't like formal wear cruiser...

 

But Carnival don't own NCL, they do own P&O so they will recommend p&o to the OV cruisers, perhaps not the best choice, but, hey, they keep the customers!

[PianoManNYC]

NCL would be a much better choice for the OV / I don't like formal wear cruiser...

 

But Carnival don't own NCL, they do own P&O so they will recommend p&o to the OV cruisers, perhaps not the best choice, but, hey, they keep the customers!

 

Keep some, but likely lose others who have come to appreciate a certain ambiance.