Passenger services act

[Cuizer2]

Interesting food for thought...all of this information. Thanks to all who have posted here. Will be nice to get the official....legal....and hopefully "in layman's terms" answer from an official entity.

 

Threads like this help people think out their travel plans. We probably would have never considered some of these issues....Thanks to all who have contributed.

 

Actually one of the posters on this thread is a lawyer. However, it is up to that person to ID him/herself.

[LorrieB]

The OP will be fine. They are taking TWO different cruises. This is called a B2B. They will still be required to go through customs before the second leg of their B2B. TWO CRUISES. NOT ONE LONG CRUISE.

 

ENJOY YOUR B2B.

[lookslikdi]

1. Carnival doesn't make the rules.

2.The passenger would be the one that would be liable for the fine.

 

I had a back to back booked from SF to Vancouver, the 2nd leg from Vancouver to Alaska ending in Seattle. I had 11 cabins booked on both cruises and tried to add cabins to the B2B group. It was at that time I was told that it would not be permitted. I went round and round, up and down, but the final outcome was that I had to cancel and rebook a different cruise.

 

Reggie

ODD..If you just finished SF to VAN ..Carnival staff could have walked you off the ship and thru customs. Your trip would have been completed. They could have walked you back on for your new cruise, Van to Sea for your B2B. I have heard of this being done many times before.

Or leave your luggage on the ship and check out thru customs. Come back a couple of hours later and check back in?

[Cuizer2]

The OP will be fine. They are taking TWO different cruises. This is called a B2B. They will still be required to go through customs before the second leg of their B2B. TWO CRUISES. NOT ONE LONG CRUISE.

 

ENJOY YOUR B2B.

 

Yes, they are taking two different cruises - on ONE ship. And yes, it is called a B2B. And it is still a violation of the PVSA which says that a foreign flagged SHIP canNOT transport people between two US cities without stopping at a DISTANT foreign port first. As a result, the combination of the two cruises is a violation of the PVSA.

[amybeth4]

ODD..If you just finished SF to VAN ..Carnival staff could have walked you off the ship and thru customs. Your trip would have been completed. They could have walked you back on for your new cruise, Van to Sea for your B2B. I have heard of this being done many times before.

Or leave your luggage on the ship and check out thru customs. Come back a couple of hours later and check back in?

 

The problem here is that the foreign-registered cruise line (ie Carnie) has now taken someone from the US to Canada and dropped them off. Same cruise line is now going to pick them up and take them from Canada back to the US.

 

Now in a sense, RCI has transported someone between two US ports and didn't call a "distant port" (like South America) which wouldn't be a problem if it was a closed-loop cruise (in and out of the same city). It's a problem here.

 

I emailed some maritime organization last week but of course they didn't respond, so I emailed them again today. Someone's gotta get a straight answer on this one! :)

[lookslikdi]

The problem here is that the foreign-registered cruise line (ie Carnie) has now taken someone from the US to Canada and dropped them off. Same cruise line is now going to pick them up and take them from Canada back to the US.

 

Now in a sense, RCI has transported someone between two US ports and didn't call a "distant port" (like South America) which wouldn't be a problem if it was a closed-loop cruise (in and out of the same city). It's a problem here.

 

I emailed some maritime organization last week but of course they didn't respond, so I emailed them again today. Someone's gotta get a straight answer on this one! :)

 

I took a resposition cruise to Alaska on Celebrity several years ago. Celebrity just ended their Mexico Riveria season in San Diego. The next day, we had to board that same ship in Ensenada Mx for our Alaska cruise. The cruise did stop in Alaskan ports and a port in Canada. The cruise finally ended in Seattle, WA. The ship then continued thru out the summer starting and ending in Seattle.

I was wondering why we could not start in San Diego and end in Seattle. The original starting point was San Diego but it later was changed to Ensenada, Mx.

[bucky7680]

What is the US goverment going to do? They won't be at the docks in Vancover saying these people can"t get on the ship. Are they going to say they can't get off the ship in Hawaii? The non US flagged ships cruiseing around Hawaii used to sail to some island for a day to get around this rule.

[Cuizer2]

What is the US goverment going to do? They won't be at the docks in Vancover saying these people can"t get on the ship. Are they going to say they can't get off the ship in Hawaii? The non US flagged ships cruiseing around Hawaii used to sail to some island for a day to get around this rule.

The US Government will fine the cruise line. The cruise line will then attempt to pass this fine onto the passenger. The fine is $300 per person. Repeated violations can result in bigger penalities.

[reggierail]

My concern is that Carnival will allow this B2B and then in the future will realize that there is a problem. This has happened to me and I would hate to see anyone go through what I had to go through.

 

Reggie :(

[reggierail]

What is the US goverment going to do? They won't be at the docks in Vancover saying these people can"t get on the ship. Are they going to say they can't get off the ship in Hawaii? The non US flagged ships cruiseing around Hawaii used to sail to some island for a day to get around this rule.

 

They don't have to be at the dock in Vancouver, they will have the passenger manifests that will show the passengers doing the B2B.

 

Reggie

[trock]

http://www.cruiseco.com/Resources/jones_act.htm

 

 

 

 

The Jones Act

 

A considerable number of our clients have raised the question as to how the "Jones Act" effects them in terms of their clients embarking and disembarking during the duration of a cruise at an intermediary port of call.

Take a recent situation which applied to one of our clients - They had a group taking a cruise which was going to start in Miami and go to the Mexican Riviera finally returning to Miami. The President of the company was embarking in Miami solely for the initial festivities and the corporate banquet/prize giving, his intention was to then disembark in Key West and fly to Europe for a series of meetings.



It came as a surprise to our client to learn that this was not going to be possible because of the "Jones Act", he was not going to be allowed to disembark at another US Port until the ship had gone "foreign" after which he could then disembark when the ship returned a US Port (which in effect is what happens to almost every cruise passage) or, as he chose to do, disembark at the first Mexican port the ship hit.



The Jones-Shafroth Act (the Jones Act as it is known) was signed into law on March 2, 1917, by President Woodrow Wilson. Even today, close to 90 years later, many provisions of the Act are very pertinent especially those dealing with Seamen's health, accident and disability benefits. So what is the "Jones Act" and how does it influence us as resellers of cruises?

 

The Jones Act is the everyday name for Section 27 of the Merchant Marine Act of 1920 (46 U.S.C. 883; 19 CFR 4.80 and 4.80b). Its intent is very simple, to promote a healthy U.S-Flag fleet and protect that fleet from unfair foreign competition, the Jones Act requires that cargo moving between U.S. ports be carried in a vessel that was built in the United States and is owned (at least 75 percent) by American citizens or corporations. Since the Jones Act vessels are registered in the United States, our general labor and immigration laws require that crewmembers be American citizens or legal aliens. (In fact most maritime nations have an equivalent to the Jones Act - (50 countries).



To reduce the terminology to something the layman can understand - this is termed "cabotage" and applies not only to shipping but to airlines and other forms of international transportation. The statute covering cabotage as it applies to passengers is known as the Passenger Services Act (PSA) and became law in 1886.



Does the Jones Act apply to passengers? The Act, no; the principle, yes. What is known as the Passenger Vessel Act (PSA) of 1886 (46 U.S.C. 289) states that “no foreign vessel shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, under penalty of $200 for each passenger so transported or landed.”



Another question we are frequently asked is, can the Jones act be waived or suspended? the answer is Yes, but only during a national emergency. However, over time, a number of exceptions have been made, for example Canadian vessels may transport passengers between Rochester and Alexandria Bay, New York and between southern Alaska and U.S. ports until an American carrier enters the markets. Similarly, foreign vessels may transport passengers between Puerto Rico and the U.S. mainland as long as a U.S. carrier does not provide such service. Foreign-flagged cruise ships may carry passengers from a U.S. port as long as they return them to the same port (a "cruise to nowhere"). Foreign vessels may also call at intermediate U.S. ports as long as no passenger permanently leaves the vessel at those ports and the vessel makes at least one call at a foreign port.



While the PSA prevents foreign cruise ships from carrying passengers directly from Alaska and the West Coast to Hawaii and from competing for Hawaiian inter-island cruise traffic, a considerable number of foreign cruise ships do visit Hawaii in any given year. American passengers on foreign cruise ships to Hawaii must board in another country—typically, Vancouver, Canada or Encinada, Mexico. These ships cannot pick up a passenger in one U.S. port and drop off the passenger in another U.S. port. However, after arriving from Canada or Mexico, they may tour the islands and drop off passengers in Hawaii. They may then pick up new passengers, tour the islands, and return to Canada or Mexico. As a consequence, these "foreign" cruise ships made approximately over 300 calls in Hawaii ports during 2002.



In October 1997, federal legislation was passed that permits a person to operate a foreign-built cruise ship in the U.S. coastwise trade provided that the person had entered a binding contract for the delivery of two U.S.-built cruise ships. The first ship must be delivered no later than January 1, 2005, and the second ship must be delivered no later than January 1, 2008. Moreover, in Hawaii, only the existing cruise ship operator may operate a foreign-built ship among the islands unless a new U.S.-built cruise ship is placed into regular service outside of Hawaii. This legislation makes it possible to temporarily employ a foreign-built vessel among the Hawaiian Islands despite the Passenger Services Act while new U.S.-built cruise ships are constructed.



In the mid- and late 1990s, there was a debate about the continued need for the nation's cabotage laws, key among which is the Jones Act. A group calling itself the Jones Act Reform Coalition (JARC), which was claiming service shortfalls in every part of the nation made an unsuccessful effort to repeal the law. As it later turned out, the JARC criticisms of the US Flag fleet galvanized the industry into a coalition that won statements of support for the Jones Act from a majority of the House, the Clinton (and now Bush) Administrations, the Department of Defense, to the extent that the JARC was disbanded in 2000.



The situation in other parts of the world are somewhat more confusing. In Europe the European Economic Union has indicated that it intends to make the carriage of passengers and goods between members countries as open as its frontiers (another story). To date this is not the case and each country appears to have its own interpretation of how the cabotage laws are applied. For example, we recently had a charter doing a site inspection on a ship that was traveling between contiguous ports of one of the Atlantic Coast EEC countries - this was no problem. A couple of weeks later a different group wanted to do the same thing on a cruise ship traveling between Mediterranean ports of another EEC country - and this was not possible.

[amybeth4]

Wow, so I was the one who emailed someone on 6/9 to get a real answer for this question...being a hot topic I'm sure plenty of us wanted to know from someone who actually KNOWS, as opposed to the rest of us who say "Yes they can," "No they can't." I'm so excited that they ANSWERED:

 

 

Dear Amy-

 

 

The answer is yes, this is permissible under the Passenger Vessel Services Act. I don’t want to get into lots of legal ramblings here, but in short, the facts must show the continuity of transportation has been completely severed between the first and second voyages. In other words, no through tickets, separate payments, baggage removed from the vessel, entry and exit clearing through Immigration/Customs at the foreign port….

 

 

Hope this helps end the debate.

 

Glen G. Nekvasil

 

Maritime Cabotage Task Force

[trock]

Other relevant info at RCCL

 

http://www.royalcaribbean.com/customersupport/faq/details.do?pagename=frequently_asked_questions&pnav=5&pnav=2&faqSubjectName=Before+You+Purchase&faqId=623&faqSubjectId=322&faqType=faq

Restrictions: Certain countries, such as the U.S., Italy and Norway, have cabotage laws affecting passenger movements. These laws restrict foreign flag passenger vessels (such as those operated by Royal Caribbean) from transporting guests from one port to another port in the same country. In the U.S., the cabotage law applicable to the cruise industry is commonly called the Jones Act but is legally titled the Passengers Services Act. A brief summary of this U.S. law follows:

 

If a passenger (as listed on a vessel passenger manifest) embarks in a U.S. port and the vessel calls in a nearby foreign port (such as Ensenada, Grand Cayman and Nassau) and then returns to the U.S., the person must disembark in the same U.S. port. A passenger who embarks and disembarks in two different U.S. ports (such as Los Angeles and San Diego) would result in the carrier (not the violator) being fined. The vessel must call in a distant foreign port before the U.S. embarkation and disembarkation ports can differ. The nearest distant foreign ports are in or off the coast of South America. If either the passenger's embarkation port or disembarkation port is in a foreign country, then the provisions of this cabotage law do not apply. Nor do they apply in Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands.

 

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[Shipyard Cruiser]

This is, in fact, a very serious question. The ramifications of booking this B2B and then having to cancel is horrific. I have had it happen to me, so I know.

 

Your making this a play on words and a symantic game is not helpful in any way. Maybe you'd be able to find somewhere else to waste everyone's time.

 

Reggie

 

Looks like she got the answer.

 

Who's really wasting everyone's time?

[RatherBFishin]

Looks like she got the answer.

 

Who's really wasting everyone's time?

 

Agreed.

 

Cuizer2, you should at least concede that the answer isn't what you had anticipated.

[Cuizer2]

Agreed.

 

Cuizer2, you should at least concede that the answer isn't what you had anticipated.

 

That person is interpreting the rule, and (s)he is not interpreting the rule the same way the CBP will. And since the CBP enforces the rule, it is their interpretation that matters.

 

Good ahead OP and book the trip. But make sure you have a plan B, because Carnival is going to force you to cancel one of the cruises. THERE IS NO DOUBT IN MY MIND ABOUT THIS.

[amybeth4]

That person is interpreting the rule, and (s)he is not interpreting the rule the same way the CBP will. And since the CBP enforces the rule, it is their interpretation that matters.

 

Good ahead OP and book the trip. But make sure you have a plan B, because Carnival is going to force you to cancel one of the cruises. THERE IS NO DOUBT IN MY MIND ABOUT THIS.

 

Cruizer,

 

How can you deny the email I got from the Maritime Cabotage Task Force, which I posted above???

 

 

Amy:

 

Sorry for the delay in answering, but have been out of the office.

 

The answer is yes, this is permissible under the Passenger Vessel Services Act. I don’t want to get into lots of legal ramblings here, but in short, the facts must show the continuity of transportation has been completely severed between the first and second voyages. In other words, no through tickets, separate payments, baggage removed from the vessel, entry and exit clearing through Immigration/Customs at the foreign port….

 

Hope this helps end the debate.

 

Glen G. Nekvasil

Maritime Cabotage Task Force

P: 440-333-9996

F: 440-333-9993

C: 216-702-6360

[Cuizer2]

Cruizer,

 

How can you deny the email I got from the Maritime Cabotage Task Force, which I posted above???

 

 

Amy:

 

Sorry for the delay in answering, but have been out of the office.

 

The answer is yes, this is permissible under the Passenger Vessel Services Act. I don’t want to get into lots of legal ramblings here, but in short, the facts must show the continuity of transportation has been completely severed between the first and second voyages. In other words, no through tickets, separate payments, baggage removed from the vessel, entry and exit clearing through Immigration/Customs at the foreign port….

 

Hope this helps end the debate.

 

Glen G. Nekvasil

Maritime Cabotage Task Force

P: 440-333-9996

F: 440-333-9993

C: 216-702-6360

 

I'm not denying it. I am saying the Mr. Nekvasil has interpreted the rule. However, he and his Maritime Cabotage Task Force does not enforce the rule. The CBP does, and the CBP does not interpret the rule the same way that Mr. Nekvasil does.

[Traveler353]

Cruizer,

 

How can you deny the email I got from the Maritime Cabotage Task Force, which I posted above???

 

 

Amy:

 

Sorry for the delay in answering, but have been out of the office.

 

The answer is yes, this is permissible under the Passenger Vessel Services Act. I don’t want to get into lots of legal ramblings here, but in short, the facts must show the continuity of transportation has been completely severed between the first and second voyages. In other words, no through tickets, separate payments, baggage removed from the vessel, entry and exit clearing through Immigration/Customs at the foreign port….

 

Hope this helps end the debate.

 

Glen G. Nekvasil

Maritime Cabotage Task Force

P: 440-333-9996

F: 440-333-9993

C: 216-702-6360

 

Don't try to confuse them with the facts. It just gives them headaches.:rolleyes:

[Cuizer2]

Perhaps some of you should reread post number 120.

[reggierail]

Perhaps some of you should reread post number 120.

 

That would be my suggestion too. I was in the exact same position and the end result was cancellation of the cruise. I choose not to continue this discussion as It serves me no gain but ridicule from the uninformed that have argued that this will be allowed. I was simply trying to save the OP from dealing with the same nightmare that I experienced. I will be on the first half of this B2B and will find out, I imagine then, what the final outcome is going to be. I sincerely hope that, whatever the outcome, it works out for the best for everyone.

 

Reggie

[salty dingo]

I would be willing to bet that if that cruise in #120 was not booked as a B2B, but rather under two separate bookings, that there would have been no problem.

 

Chances are great that the computer systems would not have been programmed to catch this sort of thing, as it does not occur very often.

 

If they can't catch you, you don't have to worry about complying with some meaningless bureaucratic bull hockey.

 

Two separate bookings mean you have to exit the ship with your bags, claim them, pretend to leave and return, and then go back through the normal check-in process. With a B2B your bags don't leave the ship.

 

I still think the cruise line was incorrect for making you cancel. Erring on the side of caution, maybe, but still incorrect.

[waiting4acruise]

I'm not denying it. I am saying the Mr. Nekvasil has interpreted the rule. However, he and his Maritime Cabotage Task Force does not enforce the rule. The CBP does, and the CBP does not interpret the rule the same way that Mr. Nekvasil does.

How do you know they interpret differntly?

What proof do you have?

[Cuizer2]

How do you know they interpret differntly?

What proof do you have?

Research. I've read a lot on this.

[salty dingo]

Research. I've read a lot on this.

If you can't point to a policy statement covering this exact situation, then the fact is, it's open for interpretation by whomever makes decisions. That could be cruise line staff or CBP, although I think only the former would truly care or even have the means to find out if there were a violation.

 

I would set up two different bookings, with different cabins. It is absolutely two separate cruises, and anyone who looks at it differently is not reasonable. Not to say unreasonable people do not exist in official capacity...