If HAL is having a tough time filling staterooms...

[kryos]

Okay, let's make sure that this isn't pushed beyond reality. The Main Dining room IS a revenue generator for the Line:

 

1. It is a critical selling-point behind the original fare that each passenger pays; part of the revenue which it generates for the Line comes right there, in the passenger's cruise-fare. Indeed, in many cases it is a critical reason why people actually buy that particular cruise! Think about us here in CC ... why do some of us choose HAL over other Lines? In many cases it's because of the Traditional Fixed Dining option that HAL still provides. Make no mistake, that's a selling factor behind the original cruise fare and it is, therefore, there that it generates revenue. Granted, it's not additional revenue, but it's nevertheless revenue that contributes to the bottom line profit-margin.

Just about every mass market cruise line still offers fixed dining, with the exception, of course, of NCL who is 100% "freestyle" dining. HAL doesn't have the lock on that.

 

2. It is a venue which generates additional revenue every time a passenger dining in it orders a bottle or glass of wine, brings a bottle of wine and pays the corkage fee to have it served and stored, etc., orders a soft drink or a mixed drink, or other for-pay beverage. Particularly, when it comes to the wine sales, the Line is generating significant revenue here.

I'd be very curious to know just what percentage of people dining in the main dining room order wine or soft drinks with dinner. And, even if they do, in many cases, they could just as well have that glass of wine in a lounge or bar as they could at dinner. That's not necessarily the main dining room generating revenue ... it's the beverage department generating it, and they may have made that sale even if the passenger had chosen to dine in his cabin that night since the passenger could have sat down in a lounge later on in the evening and ordered a couple of glasses of wine. Also, the passenger could have that same glass of wine in flexible dining or the Lido too. It's available there.

 

3. It serves as a capture-net for at-dinner photographs, which is part of the conditions that the Line factors into the revenue generated by the on-board Photography Concession (which is a contracted-out operation).

If they don't get them out in the atrium first ... using all those fancy backdrops they have set up there. I'd also be very curious to know how many people actually buy those photographs, at the inflated prices. First of all, most of them are not very good. For the price you're paying, you'd be better off getting photos taken at a studio at home. With the possible exception of some first-time cruisers, I'd be willing to bet very few of those photos sell simply because the photo concession got greedy and charges outrageous prices for them now. I know I haven't bought ship photos in years, and only broke down and bought one on my last cruise, because me and Kakalina wanted a photo together and posed for one. They wanted something like $40 bucks for a sheet with, I believe a 5 x 7, two wallet size and another smallish type version of the photo. We split the cost and had them cut the sheet down so we could each have our own copies of the photos. But if I had to pay $40, they would have never made a sale from me. It just wasn't worth $40 bucks for what you got.

 

 

4. It is a venue where the on-account Service Charge is justified, thus providing income to the wait-staff who serve there. While not revenue to the Line, per-se, it is nevertheless a contribution to the Line's ability to function by directly providing part of the income for the Wait and Kitchen staff.

True, but on some cruises I rarely eat in the main dining room. Does that mean I shouldn't tip the waiters? Of course not. Those waiters work multiple venues and the guy I didn't see in the main dining room last night, because I chose to eat in my cabin, is helping me with my tray in the Lido at breakfast in the morning. Whether those waiters worked the main dining room or the lido or room service, they would still get their auto-tip ... they are still service people taking care of passengers.

 

With all of this in mind, I will definitely grant that it is not otherwise a major revenue generator for the Line but it, or something that would take its place, is a necessary component for their operations. I pray that HAL won't go to an ala carte or "meal-plan" dining system, for that would ruin the over-all cruise experience for me.

Rev, I agree with you. I hope to God HAL never starts charging for meals onboard, because then cruising will come under some very, very serious competition from other vacation providers. One of the biggest advantages to cruising is the fact that a lot is included in your cruise fare ... at least on HAL ... basic meals, accommodations, entertainment, non-alcoholic/non-carbonated beverages, etc. If cruise lines began charging ala carte for all meals, I might as well just go to Vegas for a week, stay in a nice hotel, and pay for my meals there. True, entertainment would be additional, but then I'd have some really nice entertainment options that I don't get on a ship. Cruising would lose a lot of its allure if it became a totally ala carte experience ... because believe me, let meals go ala carte and you'll see other things go that route too ... shows, activities, etc.

 

But what I do see coming is paying for popular dining venues; i.e., a seat that is dedicated to you. You want to have a table for four dedicated for just you and your family, you're gonna have to pay for it. Otherwise, you'll take pot luck in flexible dining and perhaps have to share tables with other people. The cruise line won't "reserve" a table for you otherwise. They can't afford to. They have more people to feed that they have tables to accommodate them. So there might be a small section of the dining room ... who knows, it might even be in the King or Queen's Room ... where passengers can pay a premium to reserve their tables for the week. That table will be at a flat charge ... say $200 for a seven-day cruise ... but it will be totally dedicated to you at a certain time for dinner. No one else can be assigned there except your party. Everyone else gets flexible dining or buffet service, unless, of course, they wish to dine in a specialty restaurant that night.

 

I also see at some point in the future a charge for room service.

 

Again, charging for these things will "discourage" people from using them, yet will still make them available to people who are willing to pay. The cruise line will then be able to get everyone fed each day, despite the fact that they've expanded the number of cabins on the ship, though not the space in the dining room, and now have several hundred more people to feed in the same amount of space. Flexible dining will make that possible.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[CowPrincess]

HAL's primary customer base probably will support those higher fares

 

I suspect that a LOT of the people you consider HAL's primary customer base are no longer in a position to pay any kind of premium, and are in fact shopping based on price. Yes, there is a group of people who have been untouched by the recession, or touched so slightly that it does not affect them in any measurable way. But many people who a couple of years ago would think nothing of paying an extra few hundred $$$ to sail HAL now need to consider price in addition to value if they are going to take any kind of cruise.

[kryos]

It's not so much prayer as it is a mathematical formula which the Line applies. They know that, eventually, there comes a price bellow which the Line is unwilling to sell a cabin because, to do so, would effectively mean that they are paying the passenger to take the cruise. They know what that price-point is, and they will NOT go bellow it. They would rather the cabin sail empty than to be sold for a price bellow that point. But they'll cut it all the way down to that point if that is what it takes to sell that very last cabin on a given sailing.

You can apply all the mathematical formulas you want ... but believe me, if a cabin is in danger of going empty, the cruise line will discount pretty low to fill it ... lower than you might think.

 

When you factor in all the cabins on the ship and divide the variable costs of operating the cruise -- the food, cabin service, dining service, etc. -- it's not that much greater when you have a cabin occupied than when you have it empty. Each cabin bears a percentage of fixed costs as well ... regardless of whether it is empty or full. So that cabin can be sold (or used as a paid, but very cheap upgrade) at prices you would not believe and the cruise line won't spend anything additional to fill it than to just sail with it empty.

 

But, here's where the difference comes into play ... when the cabin is full, you have people in there to help pay your employees (auto-tips), and you are reasonably assured that they are going to spend some money onboard ... they almost have to. Therefore, you just might get lucky and get a couple in that cabin who will be so thrilled about the great deal they snagged on the cruise, that they will spend far more liberally than they normally would once onboard.

 

That's the reason why cruise lines will do almost anything ... discount down to the basement, if necessary, to fill cabins before they will let them sail empty.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[Two@Sea]

Snip...

You want to have a table for four dedicated for just you and your family, you're gonna have to pay for it. Otherwise, you'll take pot luck in flexible dining and perhaps have to share tables with other people. The cruise line won't "reserve" a table for you otherwise... Snip

 

Pssst, they're ahead of you on this one... they call them PS and Deluxe Suites, which include preferred dining as an amenity.

 

Meanwhile, I agree with RevNeal about the current dining room revenue. I find it difficult to enjoy a nice bottle of wine with dinner when it is served either before, or afterward... or anywhere other than my table!

[bepsf]

Rita--

 

You've mentioned more than once that HAL/CCL should consider splitting the line - and I don't necessarily disagree, as I understand that Eurodam is the most profitable ship in the fleet (is it the newness or the fact that her passenger capacity is so much greater and her fuel costs so much lower than the Vistas?)

 

So if the line were to be split - I'd imagine that it would make the most sense to keep the Vistas and Eurodam remain together, and the S & R-Class vessels and Prinsendam would be grouped together...

 

So as an open question to everyone - How would you do it?

 

Would you call the larger ships "Holland America Cruises" for the budget-minded 7-10 day cruises, and the smaller ships "Holland America Line" for the 10-day and longer premium voyages?

(Or would this be a marketing/PR nightmare?)

 

Would you allow HAL to go downmarket, then spin off and rename the old/smaller ships under a historical brand that still carries some luxury cachet such as "Royal Viking Line"? (And would the clientelle follow?)

 

Or would you send ships to other existing CCL lines - ie: the Vistas and Eurodam to Carnival, Costa or Princess and move HAL back up to a true premium line - or allow HAL to go downmarket and transfer the smaller ships to Cunard?

(and again - Would the clientelle follow the ships?)

[RevNeal]

[quote name='kryos']Just about every mass market cruise line still offers fixed dining, with the exception, of course, of NCL who is 100% "freestyle" dining. HAL doesn't have the lock on that.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say they did. I was simply pointing out that the Main Dining Room contributed to the Line's revenue in an indirect way through the sale of fares and through what one pays in the fares for those meals.

[QUOTE]I'd be very curious to know just what percentage of people dining in the main dining room order wine or soft drinks with dinner. And, even if they do, in many cases, they could just as well have that glass of wine in a lounge or bar as they could at dinner. That's not necessarily the main dining room generating revenue ... it's the beverage department generating it, and they may have made that sale even if the passenger had chosen to dine in his cabin that night since the passenger could have sat down in a lounge later on in the evening and ordered a couple of glasses of wine. Also, the passenger could have that same glass of wine in flexible dining or the Lido too. It's available there.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the revenue is generated through the Beverage Department, people can and certainly do drink wine and such in the lounges, and wine can be had with dinner in the Lido Restaurant. My point is NOT that the Main Dining Room is unique in generating revenue through the sale of wine, but that dinner is one of [b]the principle[/b] times that people drink wine; it is an exceedingly strong European and cultured American Tradition to have wine with one's evening meal. On ships one of the most important places for such is the Main Dining Room. Hence, revenue is generated through that tradition.

[QUOTE]If they don't get them out in the atrium first ... using all those fancy backdrops they have set up there. I'd also be very curious to know how many people actually buy those photographs, at the inflated prices.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you that the photos are not that good and the prices are high. One of the reasons why the Line wants people who haven't cruised much -- rather than many-hundreds-of-days Mariners -- is because it's the novice cruisers who buy all those photographs, thus making it a lucrative source of revenue and justifying the photographic concession.

[QUOTE]True, but on some cruises I rarely eat in the main dining room. Does that mean I shouldn't tip the waiters? Of course not. Those waiters work multiple venues and the guy I didn't see in the main dining room last night, because I chose to eat in my cabin, is helping me with my tray in the Lido at breakfast in the morning. Whether those waiters worked the main dining room or the lido or room service, they would still get their auto-tip ... they are still service people taking care of passengers.[/QUOTE]

Again, I didn't imply otherwise. Nevertheless, it is still the case that the Main Dining Room is currently a venue in which service is provided for which gratuities are paid.

[PathfinderEss]

[quote name='bepsf'][FONT=Garamond][SIZE=4]...then why are they [I]adding[/I] staterooms to the ships that they have?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=4][FONT=Garamond]Seems rather counter-intuitive - Doesn't it?[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=4][FONT=Garamond]And of course if money is so tight that service levels and quality must be cut back - Why are they spending all sorts of capital on redecorated showlounges, new staterooms, ridiculous pool areas, big-screen outdoor TV's etc.?[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=4][FONT=Garamond]Some hints for Seattle: [/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][FONT=Garamond]It's not the layout of the seats in the showlounge that's the problem - It's the crappy entertainment booked by Bill Prince.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][FONT=Garamond]It's not the color of the pillows and the draperies that's the problem - It's the overworked stewards who can barely manage to keep the cabins clean.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][FONT=Garamond]It's not the lack of "entertainment" during dinner or not being able to eat "whenever" that's the problem - It's the overworked waiters and diminishing quality of the food.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][FONT=Garamond]It's not the lack of onboard spending that's the problem - It's the plethora of same-old "Made in China" cheap junk in the shops and frequently overpriced shore-excursions that doesn't entice us to buy.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][FONT=Garamond]It's not that the traditional HAL clientelle is dying off - It's that for every two of them that dies, there are three baby-boomers to take their place.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][FONT=Garamond]It's not that the prices for cruise fares are too high - It's that HAL doesn't clearly and consistently position itself in the marketplace and fulfill the promise to justify higher fares.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][FONT=Garamond]It's not that there aren't enough people to fill your cabins - It's that HAL has too many cabins and too many ships to fill, and you're ticking off the old-guard passengers who have kept you in business for the past many years.[/FONT][/SIZE][/quote]
[SIZE=3][COLOR=darkred][B]I knew I like you bepsf, spot on![/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[JimVrhovac]

In January we cruised the Antartic on Princess lines and was very much impressed with the onboard shops and the selection that they offered.

Princess is a sister line of HAL and they may want to take a look at their shops for some ideas and rotation of their merchandise.

Ruth & Jim