If HAL is having a tough time filling staterooms...

[kryos]

Brian, I have to agree with everything that you have said. We love the Noordam, but we are not happy with the ways the cruise lines are changing. This upcoming cruise may be our last mass market cruise. Private yacht charters seem to offer more of what we are looking for.

I would love to one day see HAL become a semi-luxury line ... or at least a deluxe one ... similar to Oceania. Liquor is not included, but just about everything else is. Specialty restaurants require reservations, but no surcharge, and soft drinks and bottled water are replenished, at least in the cabins, free of charge.

 

With HAL's restrictions as to the size of their ships, they really can't do "mass market" profitably, in my opinion, because to do that you have to offer lots and lots of choice with most of those "choices" incurring special charges. You have to have lots of amenities that you can charge for such as bowling, simulation games, etc., and you have to offer lots and lots of stateroom choices to suit all different family circumstances. HAL can't do that effectively. They can't put a family of six in one stateroom, forcing someone to get two of them and probably actually end up paying more. They also don't have the capacity to make the onboard revenue that the much larger ships can make with their multiple dining venues and amenities. So, HAL tries to be a mass market line, but in my opinion fails miserably at it. I doubt HAL makes anywhere near what an RCI ship makes on a standard seven-day cruise ... and I'm talking per person revenue which would have nothing to do with how many people each respective ship carried.

 

So, HAL should go back to its roots. Offer really interesting itineraries to people with the time and money to take them. Sure, some of those itineraries can be shorter ones, but all of them would be premium. Then when those people come onboard, offer them an experience that is clearly a cut above what they would get on Jumbo of the Seas ... but you can afford to do that because you are charging a bit more.

 

A lot of these cruise lines have very, very young fleets. They built those ships from the ground up and they put all the bells and whistles on them that spell cha ching! HAL does not enjoy that luxury and I doubt HAL wants to start scrapping all of their older ships in order to build all larger ones. So for now, HAL is stuck ... they honestly can't compete in the cha ching category with the other mass market lines. So, they need to redefine themselves into something better ... something that won't necessarily appeal to young families, but will appeal to the person who desires something more in their cruise experience, and who may not have the resources to go solid luxury, but can afford to go deluxe.

 

Just my opinion ...

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[hammybee]

 

I would love to one day see HAL become a semi-luxury line ... or at least a deluxe one ... similar to Oceania. Liquor is not included, but just about everything else is. Specialty restaurants require reservations, but no surcharge, and soft drinks and bottled water are replenished, at least in the cabins, free of charge......

 

Oceania has three ships, each carrying a max of less than 700 pax.

 

They do not operate 7 day cruises and have only 6-7 annual sailings departing from U.S. ports. Those cruises are typically 2 X+ as costly as a HAL cruise on a typical Caribbean intinerary. That's quite a premium for soda, bottled water and a dinner at a speciality restuarant.

 

It's a niche that hopefully allows them to reach the profit goals established for them by their investors. And if it does not, they will be history.

[hammybee]

 

The cruise industry seems to be going the way of the all inclusive resorts. We used to regularly holiday at island and mountain resorts, which were all inclusive of meals and activities. The resorts were lots of fun for all family members, as we participated in all activities, because they were "free". Then they got greedy, with only breakfast included and most activities at extra cost.

 

The cost of a domestic flight, a cabin on a cruise ship and/or a per diem at an all-inclusive resort is substantially cheaper than it was 20 years ago.

 

What has changed the most are consumers, most of whom want Walmart prices and service levels and the ambiance associated with a botique, where everyone knows your name and preference.

[hammybee]

Next year, Veendam will be doing 7 day Bermuda cruises out of New York every Sunday, as will NCL's Norwegian Dawn. I priced similar balcony cabins on both ships on the same dates and found the Veendam much more expensive, about $1,000 more per cabin. While the Veendam is docking in St. George and Hamilton rather than King's Wharf, is that worth paying $145. more per day? By the way, I have sailed HAL and NCL many times and enjoyed them both and don't see a big difference between them. Both have their advantages and both are not what they were only five years ago.

 

A cabin on a cruise ship is a commodity and the majority of people will rationalize and choose the cruise line that offers the best price on a similar intinerary.

[hammybee]

 

HAL had a wonderful niche market mostly to themselves. I call it affordable premium.

 

That they did and it almost landed them in bankruptcy.

[jtl513]

Why would somone with fixed dining have to wait an hour? Or someone eating in the Pinnacle, Lido or room service? They are all As You Wish Dining. :confused: :D

 

Fixed dining would be fine, but you would only confirm as many people as you had space for there. ALL of the rest ...

I think Peter was mainly pointing out that you were again equating AYWD to Open.

[hammybee]

Entertainment venues are usually SRO.

 

Open Seating exists because a lot of passengers prefer not to share a table with strangers and or want the flexibility of dining when they want to do so. It's also more efficient than fixed seating because a table can be turned three times in an evening.

 

The shops sell a lot of junbk because that's what people buy. If people no longer flocked to the $10 watch sales and the three fer....tee shirt sales, they would sell something else.

 

It's the consumer who has changed the most, over time.

[flag fan]

I would love to one day see HAL become a semi-luxury line ... or at least a deluxe one ... similar to Oceania. Liquor is not included, but just about everything else is. Specialty restaurants require reservations, but no surcharge, and soft drinks and bottled water are replenished, at least in the cabins, free of charge.

 

With HAL's restrictions as to the size of their ships, they really can't do "mass market" profitably, in my opinion, because to do that you have to offer lots and lots of choice with most of those "choices" incurring special charges. You have to have lots of amenities that you can charge for such as bowling, simulation games, etc., and you have to offer lots and lots of stateroom choices to suit all different family circumstances. HAL can't do that effectively. They can't put a family of six in one stateroom, forcing someone to get two of them and probably actually end up paying more. They also don't have the capacity to make the onboard revenue that the much larger ships can make with their multiple dining venues and amenities. So, HAL tries to be a mass market line, but in my opinion fails miserably at it. I doubt HAL makes anywhere near what an RCI ship makes on a standard seven-day cruise ... and I'm talking per person revenue which would have nothing to do with how many people each respective ship carried.

 

So, HAL should go back to its roots. Offer really interesting itineraries to people with the time and money to take them. Sure, some of those itineraries can be shorter ones, but all of them would be premium. Then when those people come onboard, offer them an experience that is clearly a cut above what they would get on Jumbo of the Seas ... but you can afford to do that because you are charging a bit more.

 

A lot of these cruise lines have very, very young fleets. They built those ships from the ground up and they put all the bells and whistles on them that spell cha ching! HAL does not enjoy that luxury and I doubt HAL wants to start scrapping all of their older ships in order to build all larger ones. So for now, HAL is stuck ... they honestly can't compete in the cha ching category with the other mass market lines. So, they need to redefine themselves into something better ... something that won't necessarily appeal to young families, but will appeal to the person who desires something more in their cruise experience, and who may not have the resources to go solid luxury, but can afford to go deluxe.

 

Just my opinion ...

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

I agree with your comments. Holland America has a reputation as a premium cruise line and I believe that there should be a market for that. It seems that Carnival should try to market its lines for different cruisers--Carnival for young and energetic types that want short, relatively cheap cruises with lots of activities (competing against NCL and Royal Caribbean); Costa the Italian version of Carnival focusing on Europe (competing against MSC); Princess more romantic for young couples, honeymooners, and perhaps forcusing on the West Coast, Australia, and South America; Holland America focused on experienced (and, admittedly, older) and wealthier cruisers with better food and better service and toned-down elegant decor with entertainment to match (competing against Celebrity) and with longer itineraries (although shorter ones as well for the not-so-wealthy and not-yet-retired cruiser) and the Alaska market; Cunard focused on transatlantics, world cruises, the European market, and truly traditional cruisers (competing against Oceania and Azamara perhaps); and Seabourn in the luxury market (competing against Silversea, Crystal, and Regent Seven Seas).

 

Perhaps this business model is not working because there are not enough cruisers in HAL's assigned segment so it has had to branch out, but this blurring of the different products IMHO may cause problems in the long run. (That, along with poor quality, hurt the American auto industry--there may be a lesson there.)

 

In any event, I think it is good for cruise lines to evolve and change and it seems from these boards (not just HAL) that such changes often meet with fierce opposition from cruisers who want their favorite experience to be duplicated forever. More balconies, more dining choices (even paid ones), freestyle dining, more childrens programs, and innovative activities (movies under the stars, rockclimbing, acupuncture, glass-blowing) are all good things in my opinion because they offer more choices, but there are still ways to evolve while maintaining some signature elements (pun intended).

[Pettifogger]

kryos:

 

I am especially grateful to you for explaining why the dining system is as frustrating as it is. I could never figure out why a cruise line would want to offend so many of its passengers by refusing them fixed dining and I'm persuaded by your explanation.

 

I'm also in entire agreement with your suggestion and flag fan's that HAL should go back to being a premium cruise line and forget about competing with mass market lines for itinerant cruise passengers. I don't doubt that thrifty, elderly passengers are a challenge in some respects, but I have no doubt HAL's management could meet that challenge if they focussed their energies on what they do best.

 

However, I must hope you're wrong about a future of nothing but flexible dining. I'm sure there are many others like me who would not pay even a bargain price to go down to the dining room every evening and face the chance of having our ears bent for an hour and a half by someone who went on cruises mostly to find new listeners after they wore out all of the ears at home.

[Boytjie]

I think Peter was mainly pointing out that you were again equating AYWD to Open.

 

It's a losing battle!

[Boytjie]

Open Seating exists because a lot of passengers prefer not to share a table with strangers and or want the flexibility of dining when they want to do so.

 

I don't mind eating with strangers and I don't like being told when I have to eat. :)

[c-legs]

...then why are they adding staterooms to the ships that they have?

Seems rather counter-intuitive - Doesn't it?

 

And of course if money is so tight that service levels and quality must be cut back - Why are they spending all sorts of capital on redecorated showlounges, new staterooms, ridiculous pool areas, big-screen outdoor TV's etc.?

 

Some hints for Seattle:

It's not the layout of the seats in the showlounge that's the problem - It's the crappy entertainment booked by Bill Prince.

It's not the color of the pillows and the draperies that's the problem - It's the overworked stewards who can barely manage to keep the cabins clean.

It's not the lack of "entertainment" during dinner or not being able to eat "whenever" that's the problem - It's the overworked waiters and diminishing quality of the food.

It's not the lack of onboard spending that's the problem - It's the plethora of same-old "Made in China" cheap junk in the shops and frequently overpriced shore-excursions that doesn't entice us to buy.

It's not that the traditional HAL clientelle is dying off - It's that for every two of them that dies, there are three baby-boomers to take their place.

It's not that the prices for cruise fares are too high - It's that HAL doesn't clearly and consistently position itself in the marketplace and fulfill the promise to justify higher fares.

It's not that there aren't enough people to fill your cabins - It's that HAL has too many cabins and too many ships to fill, and you're ticking off the old-guard passengers who have kept you in business for the past many years.

 

very well said !!!!:cool:;) Thank you for a '' spot on '' evaluation of HAL ( and the industry in general )

cheers

[kryos]

However, I must hope you're wrong about a future of nothing but flexible dining. I'm sure there are many others like me who would not pay even a bargain price to go down to the dining room every evening and face the chance of having our ears bent for an hour and a half by someone who went on cruises mostly to find new listeners after they wore out all of the ears at home.

I too would love to be wrong on this score ... but just looking at the numbers, I can't see how I could be. A main dining room is not bringing any revenue in for the cruise line, so HAL is going to be naturally hesitant to expand it. In fact, if HAL could figure out a way to feed everyone with a smaller dining room on future ships, I think they would be thrilled to do that. Hence, you can't "waste" perfectly good slots in fixed seating on people who don't show up. Their seats can't be reassigned and that's wasted space. Flexible dining doesn't waste space. If people decide to dine in the Pinnacle, the Taramand, that Eyetalian Joint in the Lido that I have no idea how to spell :) , or order room service ... no spot is wasted in the main dining room. More people get fed and less space is dedicated for that purpose. Less space for a main dining room means more space for some sort of revenue-generating function ... expand the casino, add a shop, put in a new type of bar ... all these things bring added revenue in, so they will get priority.

 

This is just the way the cruise lines are going, and ... again ... I'm not necessarily criticizing. HAL may be in the fight of its life to survive for all we know. They may have to make some tough decisions.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[kryos]

And, because a whole lot of people are taking those deals, the ships ARE going out full. You can't have it both ways, you know. The Line doesn't want those cabins to sail empty, so they're discounting the ones that don't sell to move them before the ship moves. This results in them being full. HAL would rather not have to flash-sell 'em, but it's better that then the cabins be empty.

Okay, maybe I wasn't clear on that. You are correct ... I'd be willing to bet that most HAL ships do sail pretty much full ... but only because HAL sold a batch of cabins at bargain basement prices with the flash specials. I'm sure they lose out when they have to do that.

 

I've always seen flash specials, but I've never seen them to the extent that I am seeing them lately. I got one email the other day that must have been ten pages long listing all sorts of cruises between now and the rest of the year. Clearly they are not selling well and the flash specials are designed to stimulate those sales.

 

I think at some point the cruise lines realize ... we have no choice ... between paid (but relatively cheap) upgrades and flash specials, we're gonna take a bath on this block of cabins. But let's do what we can to get some warm bodies into them and pray to God that those people like to drink, gamble and use the spa. :) Hopefully, they like to make nice jewelry purchases too. :)

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[AAAAmerican]

They do sell a lot more booze too with people waiting for seats/tabletops...

 

 

It is to the Cruise lines Advantage mostly..

 

It used to be selling more fine wines that added dinner revenues now they have...

 

You have seen the decline in other lines of quality to make the cruisers move to the pay per meal locations more too.

 

Salty Soup, ye old bar trick, they think does make thirsty cruisers..

 

I am so glad and proud HAL doesn't do that!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I too would love to be wrong on this score ... but just looking at the numbers, I can't see how I could be. A main dining room is not bringing any revenue in for the cruise line, so HAL is going to be naturally hesitant to expand it. In fact, if HAL could figure out a way to feed everyone with a smaller dining room on future ships, I think they would be thrilled to do that. Hence, you can't "waste" perfectly good slots in fixed seating on people who don't show up. Their seats can't be reassigned and that's wasted space. Flexible dining doesn't waste space. If people decide to dine in the Pinnacle, the Taramand, that Eyetalian Joint in the Lido that I have no idea how to spell :) , or order room service ... no spot is wasted in the main dining room. More people get fed and less space is dedicated for that purpose. Less space for a main dining room means more space for some sort of revenue-generating function ... expand the casino, add a shop, put in a new type of bar ... all these things bring added revenue in, so they will get priority.

 

This is just the way the cruise lines are going, and ... again ... I'm not necessarily criticizing. HAL may be in the fight of its life to survive for all we know. They may have to make some tough decisions.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[kryos]

Oceania has three ships, each carrying a max of less than 700 pax.

 

They do not operate 7 day cruises and have only 6-7 annual sailings departing from U.S. ports. Those cruises are typically 2 X+ as costly as a HAL cruise on a typical Caribbean intinerary. That's quite a premium for soda, bottled water and a dinner at a speciality restuarant.

Well, I said "similar" to Oceania, not identical to it. HAL has larger ships, so they are never going to be able to offer the "intimate" environment that Oceania does. So, their cruises shouldn't cost what Oceania's do. HAL would be in some ways similar, but in a lot of ways different too. The bottom line is that HAL would offer a true premium, bordering on the deluxe, cruise experience. Lots of really interesting itineraries, some of them longer, a more elegant onboard experience, more inclusives than now, and a somewhat higher price. I honestly think HAL has the customer base that could support this kind of change and if they would stop trying to compete with the mass market lines, I personally think they would be better off.

 

I've long ago said ... and this is just my opinion ... that HAL should be broken into two separate cruise lines ... sort of like Azamara was broken off from the standard Celebrity brand. There would be the modern HAL ... the one geared toward families ... shorter sailings, popular destinations, the bigger ships in the fleet, more "child friendly," catering to families, etc. Here HAL would try to compete in the market on the basis of price, something many young families are very sensitive to.

 

Then there would be the other HAL ... the HAL of old. Some shorter cruises, but nicer ones ... more "exotic" Caribbean and Panama Canal. But mainly this HAL would offer a premium or deluxe cruise experience. It would utilize the smaller ships in the fleet and would do a lot more extensive itineraries as well (sort of like they do now). More would be included in the price of the cruise, and the service would be a notch above. Of course, the price would be a bit higher than competing lines, but then I think people would be willing to pay for that.

 

This is just my opinion, but I think HAL would be far better off if they tried to more carefully define their market and then concentrate on satisfying that market, instead of trying to be all things to all people, ending up disappointing everybody.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[cle1]

...then why are they adding staterooms to the ships that they have?

Seems rather counter-intuitive - Doesn't it?

 

And of course if money is so tight that service levels and quality must be cut back - Why are they spending all sorts of capital on redecorated showlounges, new staterooms, ridiculous pool areas, big-screen outdoor TV's etc.?

 

Some hints for Seattle:

It's not the layout of the seats in the showlounge that's the problem - It's the crappy entertainment booked by Bill Prince.

It's not the color of the pillows and the draperies that's the problem - It's the overworked stewards who can barely manage to keep the cabins clean.

It's not the lack of "entertainment" during dinner or not being able to eat "whenever" that's the problem - It's the overworked waiters and diminishing quality of the food.

It's not the lack of onboard spending that's the problem - It's the plethora of same-old "Made in China" cheap junk in the shops and frequently overpriced shore-excursions that doesn't entice us to buy.

It's not that the traditional HAL clientelle is dying off - It's that for every two of them that dies, there are three baby-boomers to take their place.

It's not that the prices for cruise fares are too high - It's that HAL doesn't clearly and consistently position itself in the marketplace and fulfill the promise to justify higher fares.

It's not that there aren't enough people to fill your cabins - It's that HAL has too many cabins and too many ships to fill, and you're ticking off the old-guard passengers who have kept you in business for the past many years.

 

THANK YOU>>>THANK YOU>>my thoughts exactly!! Could not have said it better! I just wish Seattle would listen to it's customers! My family has been with HAL since 1953, and we are still around, along with my "kids" who are discovering HAL, so we AREN'T dying off!

Carol

[Rabbitlady]

We think that the entertainment on HAL needs much improvement. The lounges are nice. It's the entertainment that is truly lacking. The show lounge is full because it is really the only form of entertainment going on at the time other than some music in lounges or spending money in the casino.

 

Rabbitlady and hubby

[Rabbitlady]

Sorry for all these old banners. I forgot to get them off.

 

RL

[jimmy2x]

THANK YOU>>>THANK YOU>>my thoughts exactly!! Could not have said it better! I just wish Seattle would listen to it's customers!

 

Few, if any, companies make the "right" decisions all the time. "New Coke" anyone? We have to remember that those of us who frequent these forums, still represent a very small portion of HAL's customers. I am quite sure that Seattle thinks that they ARE listening and responding appropriately.

 

Most of us could not possibly afford Oceania or Seabourne or we would already be there. We have tried other "mainstream" lines, almost always regretted our decision, and after the last time decided it was HAL or nothing.

 

It remains to be seen if some of the "changes" break the camel's back - certainly hope not as we have found cruising to be the ideal vacation.

[sail7seas]

I too would love to be wrong on this score ... but just looking at the numbers, I can't see how I could be. A main dining room is not bringing any revenue in for the cruise line, so HAL is going to be naturally hesitant to expand it. In fact, if HAL could figure out a way to feed everyone with a smaller dining room on future ships, I think they would be thrilled to do that. Hence, you can't "waste" perfectly good slots in fixed seating on people who don't show up. Their seats can't be reassigned and that's wasted space. Flexible dining doesn't waste space. If people decide to dine in the Pinnacle, the Taramand, that Eyetalian Joint in the Lido that I have no idea how to spell :) , or order room service ... no spot is wasted in the main dining room. More people get fed and less space is dedicated for that purpose. Less space for a main dining room means more space for some sort of revenue-generating function ... expand the casino, add a shop, put in a new type of bar ... all these things bring added revenue in, so they will get priority.

 

This is just the way the cruise lines are going, and ... again ... I'm not necessarily criticizing. HAL may be in the fight of its life to survive for all we know. They may have to make some tough decisions.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

 

You neglect to consider the possibility of cruise lines (including HAL) going to an a la carte dining system. It can then become a revenue producing part of the cruise.

 

Whether you (or I) like the idea or not is not my point. My only point is that your discussion is limited and leaves out other possibilities.

While you state with firmness what HAL is doing and their reasons, we all must acknowledge none of us who do not sit in on planning meetings really know. We all just AsSume and suppose but in reality we all wait to see. Even those who infer they have 'inside sources' won't know until it is formally announced. IMO

[RevNeal]

Okay, maybe I wasn't clear on that. You are correct ... I'd be willing to bet that most HAL ships do sail pretty much full ... but only because HAL sold a batch of cabins at bargain basement prices with the flash specials. I'm sure they lose out when they have to do that.

 

My understanding is that allowing a cabin to sail empty costs the line money not only because sailing empty robs the Line of profit-revenue from that cabin, but also because the Line must still factor in a certain amount to maintain that empty cabin for the duration of the cruise (i.e., they must expend fuel to CARRY that cabin as dead, non-revenue generating weight/space, they must maintain staff for it even if nobody is in it, they must still pay their mortgage on it as a fraction of the ship's overall mortgage (assuming the ship still has one), etc.). Factoring these costs of the Line's maintaining the cabin, HAL has a break-even target point to which they can and are willing to discount any given cabin when selling it at bellow their profit-zone price; beyond that break-even target point, they would be loosing money on each sell. That break-even target point takes into account everything, including an estimation (based upon past trends) of how much the average passenger will spend while aboard ship through their onboard accounts. The Line is willing to discount a fare all the way down to that very break-even point in order for that cabin to sail on a break-even/non-profit basis and still, thereby, provide a non-loss income for the duration of that cruise. Anything less than that, and they start eating into the ship's over-all profit on each sailing. It is that eventuality that they wish to avoid.

 

During the current economic situation, I'm sure that HAL has been discounting cabins to at least a minimal degree and particularly on the mass-market "Bread-and-Butter" runs. To weather the storm of this economic recession while still meeting their payrolls, paying their operational expenses, and covering their mortgages for their new(er) ships, HAL has almost certainly been operating at a lower profit margin to begin with. All the Lines appear to be doing this, and this has generated over-all lower fares which have attracted more people to cruising, even despite the poor economy, and for this reason, plus the more-frequent flash sales, their ships have been sailing nearly (if not entirely) full.

 

I've always seen flash specials, but I've never seen them to the extent that I am seeing them lately. I got one email the other day that must have been ten pages long listing all sorts of cruises between now and the rest of the year. Clearly they are not selling well and the flash specials are designed to stimulate those sales.

 

Agreed. The over-all reduction in profit-margins has probably been sufficient to sell a large number of cabins on each sailing, but there still remains a larger-than-acceptable number of empty cabins as each ship approaches the cut-off-date for selling cabins. Flash sales which cut those prices (sometimes) to the break-even point are what we're seeing more of, now, than in the past. I've been getting those same e-mailings, and have been drooling over the prospect. On the one hand I've been telling myself "If ONLY I had both the time and the money to cruise on such short notice!" On the other hand, most of those flash sales have been on cruises that I really don't care about taking ... or which I've taken several times before and don't want to take anymore.

 

I think at some point the cruise lines realize ... we have no choice ... between paid (but relatively cheap) upgrades and flash specials, we're gonna take a bath on this block of cabins. But let's do what we can to get some warm bodies into them and pray to God that those people like to drink, gamble and use the spa. :) Hopefully, they like to make nice jewelry purchases too. :)

 

It's not so much prayer as it is a mathematical formula which the Line applies. They know that, eventually, there comes a price bellow which the Line is unwilling to sell a cabin because, to do so, would effectively mean that they are paying the passenger to take the cruise. They know what that price-point is, and they will NOT go bellow it. They would rather the cabin sail empty than to be sold for a price bellow that point. But they'll cut it all the way down to that point if that is what it takes to sell that very last cabin on a given sailing.

[RevNeal]

A main dining room is not bringing any revenue in for the cruise line, so HAL is going to be naturally hesitant to expand it. In fact, if HAL could figure out a way to feed everyone with a smaller dining room on future ships, I think they would be thrilled to do that. Hence, you can't "waste" perfectly good slots in fixed seating on people who don't show up. Their seats can't be reassigned and that's wasted space. Flexible dining doesn't waste space.

 

Okay, let's make sure that this isn't pushed beyond reality. The Main Dining room IS a revenue generator for the Line:

 

1. It is a critical selling-point behind the original fare that each passenger pays; part of the revenue which it generates for the Line comes right there, in the passenger's cruise-fare. Indeed, in many cases it is a critical reason why people actually buy that particular cruise! Think about us here in CC ... why do some of us choose HAL over other Lines? In many cases it's because of the Traditional Fixed Dining option that HAL still provides. Make no mistake, that's a selling factor behind the original cruise fare and it is, therefore, there that it generates revenue. Granted, it's not additional revenue, but it's nevertheless revenue that contributes to the bottom line profit-margin.

 

2. It is a venue which generates additional revenue every time a passenger dining in it orders a bottle or glass of wine, brings a bottle of wine and pays the corkage fee to have it served and stored, etc., orders a soft drink or a mixed drink, or other for-pay beverage. Particularly, when it comes to the wine sales, the Line is generating significant revenue here.

 

3. It serves as a capture-net for at-dinner photographs, which is part of the conditions that the Line factors into the revenue generated by the on-board Photography Concession (which is a contracted-out operation).

 

4. It is a venue where the on-account Service Charge is justified, thus providing income to the wait-staff who serve there. While not revenue to the Line, per-se, it is nevertheless a contribution to the Line's ability to function by directly providing part of the income for the Wait and Kitchen staff.

 

With all of this in mind, I will definitely grant that it is not otherwise a major revenue generator for the Line but it, or something that would take its place, is a necessary component for their operations. I pray that HAL won't go to an ala carte or "meal-plan" dining system, for that would ruin the over-all cruise experience for me.

[Pettifogger]

In thinking back over the suggestions we have made to HAL on this thread, it occurs to me that some of them would require escapable expenditures at a time when revenues are greatly reduced. I have in mind particularly the ones, including mine, urging HAL to maintain or regain its "premium" status. They might reasonably reply, "We are trying to maintain our existence."

 

On the other hand, they may have made a long term decision to go in a different direction than some of us would wish; there is no way to know whether some of the things we question are temporary or permanent until we see.

 

In the meantime, there is no competition that satisfies my particular preferences, so I'm happy to take advantage of their lower prices to cruise more, while I wait to see what happens when the cruise business recovers.

[kryos]

You neglect to consider the possibility of cruise lines (including HAL) going to an a la carte dining system. It can then become a revenue producing part of the cruise.

 

Whether you (or I) like the idea or not is not my point. My only point is that your discussion is limited and leaves out other possibilities.

While you state with firmness what HAL is doing and their reasons, we all must acknowledge none of us who do not sit in on planning meetings really know. We all just AsSume and suppose but in reality we all wait to see. Even those who infer they have 'inside sources' won't know until it is formally announced. IMO

Exactly, I am ASSuMING ... and that's all we can do since, as you say, we are not invited to the Corporate Planning Meetings. But I just don't see HAL going as deeply into ala carte dining as the other cruise lines, simply because HAL ships can't support the variety of dining venues that those other cruise lines have on their ships. I think I recall reading somewhere that the new NCL Epic will have something like 12 different dining venues onboard, some of them free, but most incurring an extra charge.

 

HAL has what ... three specialty dining venues on their biggest Signature class ships ... Pinnacle and Taramind (extra charge), and then the Cannellito (sp?). They really can't make a lot of money on specialty dining with HAL and even if all sit-down dining venues began to incur a charge (something I do see in the coming years), HAL is never going to make the money on dining that the other cruise lines make with their multiple dining venues that they can charge quite a bit more for. What can HAL truly charge people for a table in the main dining room?

 

That's why short of building an entirely new fleet designed for multiple dining venues and lots of upcharges on various things, I say HAL is better off NOT trying to compete with the other mass market lines. They would serve themselves better by trying to set themselves apart from those lines, but offering their passengers a far more elegant experience and then charging a bit more for it. HAL's primary customer base probably will support those higher fares ... as long as their needs were being met. The Carnivals, RCI's and NCL's wouldn't have the customer base to support a more elegant cruise experience ... or wouldn't be willing to pay for it. Those people (and of course, I'm speaking in generalities here) are looking for a good deal on a cruise that won't break the family budget for the year. They are generally much younger, still relatively new in their careers, and raising a family. They just want a quickie cruise. They can't afford, nor would they have the time to take anything longer and/or more exotic. Then ... and this is the big thing ... they want to be able to go home and tell their friends that the whole family of four sailed for about $1,000 bucks. Sure, they may have had to pay for a lot of things onboard that they weren't expecting, but still, overall, they got a great deal.

 

HAL's passengers (again, generalities) are not necessarily shopping on the basis of price ... not for the longer, more exotic itineraries. They are shopping for the HAL experience that they know and love, and for some very interesting itineraries. I think if HAL focused on that, they wouldn't have to worry about charging ala carte for meals in the main dining room. They'd be making that money upfront in the fares.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita