English Remove Tips, "we don't tip"

[cruiser87654321]

I disagree with a lot of the comments here.

 

Up until two years ago I bartended part time in the tourist area of International Drive in Orlando. We had our share of Americans and Brits. My experience is that if you treat a Brit the way they want to be treated they will take care of you. In most cases it was the British family who outipped the American family.

 

For example in most cases a British family will tip based upon the service experience received. An American however views service as a percentage. I know no matter how much that American would make me run I was only going to receive 15% because that is customary.

 

That is my point exactly. We generally tip in the region of 20% in a US restaurant, and our level of service expectation is probably lower than the average american. We do not expect the server to "jump through hoops" to achieve that level of tip, just speedy,pleasant, helpful service, which we are quite happy to pay for at a level of our choosing. If that server was also appreciated in a monetary fashion by his employer he would be in a much better position.

[Goldryder]

Who put you in charge of rating the posts?

 

Sorry if my exercise in free speech bothers you. I think I still have that right. Even if I don't have the right to choose my healthcare provider I still have the right to free speech.

 

Oh for heaven's sake, don't start getting all huffy. Lighten up a bit, life is way too short to be climbing onto high horses for no reason.

 

Go smack yourself round the face with a cold & wet lettuce, that'll bring the blood pressure down ;):p

[cruiser87654321]

Who put you in charge of rating the posts?

 

Sorry if my exercise in free speech bothers you. I think I still have that right. Even if I don't have the right to choose my healthcare provider I still have the right to free speech.

 

You absolutely do have that right, and I would defend that right to the death. Just as other have the right to comment on your statements, :Ddoesn't stop you making them, just have an expectation of comment when you do so. In the interests of free speech for others, funny how that element of the concept eludes those who use free speech as a yardstick.

 

In that spirit, maybe if you dislike Europe and its leanings, you should stay home, where you are more comfortable with the ideals, and just in case you should need to avail yourself of any healthcare.

[hoop4321]

just curious.......if you accept and understand what the tips are for......but consider them "rude" so you will not pay?? Where is the "right" in that?

[Goldryder]

just curious.......if you accept and understand what the tips are for......but consider them "rude" so you will not pay?? Where is the "right" in that?

 

99% of us do pay them without a fuss or scene being made about it.

 

What can be seen as rude is that the percentage is always expected regardless of service(s) given.

 

Let me explain..

 

In the UK, you go into a restaurant and the waitress really goes above and beyond, you show your appreciation and tip them accordingly...might be 20%, might be 50%, the amount is up to you the individual. If on the otherhand the waitress is shoddy, slow and unpleasant, then you'll wind the amount down to something minimal, maybe 5 or 10%.

 

In the US it is 15% bottom line come what may, good, bad or indifferent service. Yes you can tip more if the service is great - and many of us do so, but if the service is mediocre, we still feel that we have to pay the 15%.

 

That is why people get resentful and that is why those who maybe are not regular travellers to the US or on cruise ships find the set amount of 15% as demanding or 'rude'.

[klfrodo]

:o

 

Opps, I must have stepped over the line by calling out a poster by name. I'm sorry to that poster, the members of this board and to the moderators.

 

As I was saying, I want to congratulate the board members on the chat. For the most part it has been civil, enlightning, educational, and entertaining.

 

It is discussions like this that allow us all to learn about different cultures and have a better understanding of where each of us are coming from.

[cruiser87654321]

just curious.......if you accept and understand what the tips are for......but consider them "rude" so you will not pay?? Where is the "right" in that?

 

I did not say I did not pay, (read my posts) quite the contrary. I said I understood why some people would act that way, to try to change the sytem.

 

I think that those cruiselines who are now moving more into the European market will eventually have to adapt to European customs for those sailings, especially those out of UK ports, as many people do object to what they see as legitimsed explotation of vulnerable workers by large corporations, and how they pass that onto their customers by creating the culture of "expectation, followed by blame" if they do not comply.

 

Europeans dont take kindly to force/expectation for whatever reason, no matter how long the practice has been in place.

[redskin80]

Their are many customs around the world that are vile and wrong (for the visitor, not the host) and not something someone would choose to participate in, so your "When in Rome..." comment doesn't really work if you don't accept or appreciate the custom the same way as "Romans" do. Tipping in some parts of the world is not customary, believe it or not some cultures look at it a an insult to offer a Tip.

 

 

This is true. We were in Italy a few years back and we were told not to tip in resteraunts as there is a service charge already added into the meal. We thought odd but we did follow what others were not doing in this case. But I can say that all of the guides we had for excursions were more than happy to have the tips that we handed to them everyday, not a single one of them looked or acted offended withe cash being handed to them .

[vacruizer]

In the USA, we have a minimum wage law, if you don't make it in combined tips and an hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference:

 

"A tipped employee engages in an occupation in which he or she customarily and regularly receives more than $30 per month in tips. An employer of a tipped employee is only required to pay $2.13 per hour in direct wages if that amount combined with the tips received at least equals the federal minimum wage. If the employee’s tips combined with the employer’s direct wages of at least $2.13 per hour do not equal the federal minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference. Many states, however, require higher direct wage amounts for tipped employees."

 

Serving IS a minimum wage, labor job, it is a low paying job, no matter how good you think you are, serving is serving.

 

I have no idea what the laws are on a cruise ship:)

 

The problem with this is that the employer almost never lives up to this part of it. It may be the law, but in practice it doesn't happen. They will claim that you must have gotten enough in cash to make it up and won't make up the difference. It becomes your word against theirs and is way too expensive for most servers to be able to afford to take their employer to court over and risk their job.

 

The other thing that actually does happen is that the IRS taxes servers that they made at least 8% in tips on everything they sell. So if your tab is $100 and you stiff the waiter - the IRS assumes the waiter made at least $8 and taxes them on money they may never have made. :mad:

 

Most servers will average out with tips over minimium wage in the long term, IF they provide decent service and the majority of their people leave a standard tip. But there are cultures and groups here in the US who absolutely refuse to tip of believe $1 is acceptable no matter how big a group or tab and those are the ones that frustrated me. Like I said before - when I would spend a whole weekend running myself silly and basically come away with nothing it really made me feel like I was being taken advantage of in more ways than one - by the customer, the employer, and the system.

 

The problem with the assumption made by the poster a few pages back that servers who do a good job and are cut out for the work will make tons of money is that plenty of people who get great service still won't tip no matter what. Yet the server doesn't know that ahead of time and doesn't have the right to refuse to wait on these people if they did know.

 

To our UK friends here who I think have greatly contributed to the discussion - my comments are not in any way directed to you - I am speaking mainly about Americans here and tipping practices in general. Thanks for chiming in on the subject!

[cruiser87654321]

The problem with this is that the employer almost never lives up to this part of it. It may be the law, but in practice it doesn't happen. They will claim that you must have gotten enough in cash to make it up and won't make up the difference. It becomes your word against theirs and is way too expensive for most servers to be able to afford to take their employer to court over and risk their job.

 

The other thing that actually does happen is that the IRS taxes servers that they made at least 8% in tips on everything they sell. So if your tab is $100 and you stiff the waiter - the IRS assumes the waiter made at least $8 and taxes them on money they may never have made. :mad:

 

Most servers will average out with tips over minimium wage in the long term, IF they provide decent service and the majority of their people leave a standard tip. But there are cultures and groups here in the US who absolutely refuse to tip of believe $1 is acceptable no matter how big a group or tab and those are the ones that frustrated me. Like I said before - when I would spend a whole weekend running myself silly and basically come away with nothing it really made me feel like I was being taken advantage of in more ways than one - by the customer, the employer, and the system.

 

The problem with the assumption made by the poster a few pages back that servers who do a good job and are cut out for the work will make tons of money is that plenty of people who get great service still won't tip no matter what. Yet the server doesn't know that ahead of time and doesn't have the right to refuse to wait on these people if they did know.

 

To our UK friends here who I think have greatly contributed to the discussion - my comments are not in any way directed to you - I am speaking mainly about Americans here and tipping practices in general. Thanks for chiming in on the subject![/quote]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are welcome, I love to debate.....beats the ironing which is waiting to be done for our upcoming cruise!!

 

The point you make in your first para re employers getting round the system is, I suspect, universal, as is the reluctance/inability of most employees to rock the boat.

 

Human nature is also universal, and for every decent person who rewards good service there will be one who want to pay the minimum and run.

 

Therefore, it is a better practice in my opnion, to ensure the server is fairly compensated by the employer and can then benefit from the bonus of a tip, than to pretend to believe that everyone will tip, and so the server loses out.

 

As a point of interest, and as someone with who is better placed than most to comment, which system would you prefer?

[hoop4321]

ok....but if the tips are included up front....you have been "forced" to pay them. This way gives the consumer the power to say....you know...you were kind of terrible at the job.....you don't deserve so much. The only time in US restaurants that you are forced to tip a percentage is with large parties....the rest is up to you. I was an exchange student in Germany for a year.....the wait staff there are notoriously bad.....i don't know if my host father was joking but he said if you ask for the check 3 times in Germany you can walk out with out paying the tab...so they are good at getting the check to you. That being said...we are loosely planning a trip either to Europe or a cruise to Alaska next year, so i am researching everything for each destination...which makes this topic, very interesting:)

[Will&Hel]

99% of us do pay them without a fuss or scene being made about it.

 

What can be seen as rude is that the percentage is always expected regardless of service(s) given.

 

Let me explain..

 

In the UK, you go into a restaurant and the waitress really goes above and beyond, you show your appreciation and tip them accordingly...might be 20%, might be 50%, the amount is up to you the individual. If on the otherhand the waitress is shoddy, slow and unpleasant, then you'll wind the amount down to something minimal, maybe 5 or 10%.

 

In the US it is 15% bottom line come what may, good, bad or indifferent service. Yes you can tip more if the service is great - and many of us do so, but if the service is mediocre, we still feel that we have to pay the 15%.

 

That is why people get resentful and that is why those who maybe are not regular travellers to the US or on cruise ships find the set amount of 15% as demanding or 'rude'.

 

 

I agree totally with this. The principle in the UK and I believe most of europe is we tip for excellent service at a rate we determine- this may be 10% or 50% . The staff do not expect a set % unlike the lady who served us in Florida who believe she deserved 18% and when we tipped below that she was very rude and aggressive- she was lucky to get 10% in my opinion-her attitude cost the diner business for the rest of the week.

 

The original post pointed to the English- it would seem many others are uncomfortable with pre-payed gratuities of a set amount

[cruiser87654321]

ok....but if the tips are included up front....you have been "forced" to pay them.

 

Exactly,and I dont like it, but I do do it because it is what is expected, BUT I won't condemn those who play hard ball and choose to do it differently. That said, if the service was awful I would not hesitate to remove the tips.

 

 

 

This way gives the consumer the power to say....you know...you were kind of terrible at the job.....you don't deserve so much. The only time in US restaurants that you are forced to tip a percentage is with large parties....the rest is up to you. I was an exchange student in Germany for a year.....the wait staff there are notoriously bad.....i don't know if my host father was joking but he said if you ask for the check 3 times in Germany you can walk out with out paying the tab...so they are good at getting the check to you. That being said...we are loosely planning a trip either to Europe or a cruise to Alaska next year, so i am researching everything for each destination...which makes this topic, very interesting:)

 

Tipping is welcome in the UK/Europe (do check if a service charge has not been added though, to avoid duplication) but it is at the discretion of the diner, not a set or expected %.

 

Just a different way of doing things.

[Goldryder]

ok....but if the tips are included up front....you have been "forced" to pay them. This way gives the consumer the power to say....you know...you were kind of terrible at the job.....you don't deserve so much. The only time in US restaurants that you are forced to tip a percentage is with large parties....the rest is up to you. I was an exchange student in Germany for a year.....the wait staff there are notoriously bad.....i don't know if my host father was joking but he said if you ask for the check 3 times in Germany you can walk out with out paying the tab...so they are good at getting the check to you. That being said...we are loosely planning a trip either to Europe or a cruise to Alaska next year, so i am researching everything for each destination...which makes this topic, very interesting:)

 

This is why I mentioned Costa, which is a part of the Carnival group.

 

For UK/European guests the gratuity is (on average) €7 a day added to the shipboard account and payable at the end of the cruise. You cannot alter it or drop it, it is fixed, plus the usual 15% on drinks.

 

For Australian guests the gratuity is pre-paid at the time the cruise is paid off in full. There is no extra per day to pay..apart from the 15% on drinks as is the norm.

 

Now look at P&O, another line in Carnival group, they do not charge 15% on drinks and tipping is purely down to the guest to decide how much to give, ie no set percentages or expectations.

 

So when you have the same parent and many companies all having completely different ways of dealing with what is an already contentious issue, you will always get problems, misunderstandings, resentment and arguments.

 

That is why I personally think that all Carnival group cruise lines should have exactly the same gratuity policy across the board, then everyone knows exactly where they stand and what is expected of them.

[Vanessa L]

So tipping in the UK, Oz and any other country that doesn't regularly adhere to a Tipping Custom would be offended by Americans who try to Tip for their Services. I can live with that.

 

Actually this is exactly right. We've visited Europe several times and the check always includes the tip (or "service") and also note, there is not an option to remove that!! If the service you received was extraordinary, one can add more to the already added tip but it is expected that, that would only be 2-3% more. It was difficult at first not to tip, but once you see what your tab is, you get over it, we did!!

[vacruizer]

 

Therefore, it is a better practice in my opnion, to ensure the server is fairly compensated by the employer and can then benefit from the bonus of a tip, than to pretend to believe that everyone will tip, and so the server loses out.

 

As a point of interest, and as someone with who is better placed than most to comment, which system would you prefer?

 

I personally would much prefer the UK system of server's being paid a fair wage. The problem is that we Americans are culturally programmed to be very cost conscious. So if we were to institute a normal minimum wage for servers, many fear that the restaurant industry would lose business as meal costs rosse to help the employer pay the difference in wage and still maintain the same level of profitability. And the restaurant industry would lobby Congress and fight it every step of the way.

 

I also wonder how it would affect the quality of employees here, though. If you are at a minimum wage job in the US as it stands now - it is usually bottom of the barrel type job and the people it attracts often are not literate, or have criminal records, etc.

 

The question becomes - with tips no longer required I believe most Americans would stop tipping alltogether due to our value-conscious society. If the restaurants are only paying minimum wage they are only going to get minimum wage quality workers where as it stands now many US servers are college students, or moms that want to stay home with the kids during the day, etc. How did that work out in the UK? Do restaurants tend to pay more than the minimum in order to attract good employees? Here at least - minimum wage is really not enough for anyone to make a decent living on in this country and minimum wage earners are very poor by our standards.

[Mike1948]

As a Brit, there is an expectation here that the advertised or agreed price is what we pay. For instance, price tickets in UK shops include sales tax (VAT) whereas in the US they do not.

 

Everyone in the UK is paid the minimum wage by law and this is strictly enforced. There are fines for businesses who cheat their staff. Some restaurants/hotels have been using tips to subsidise staff wages but this will be illegal by the end of this year. Any tips will then be on top of the minimum wage or whatever the pay rate is.

 

I tip taxi drivers and my barber with about 10% of the bill.

[cathyoo]

Jolyn, Tipping really is no big deal in the grand scheme of things. .

 

Well I think how big of a deal it is depends upon where you are on the scheme of it all. If tips pay your mortgage and feed your family I would imagine they are pretty big on your grand scheme.

[Goldryder]

I personally would much prefer the UK system of server's being paid a fair wage. The problem is that we Americans are culturally programmed to be very cost conscious. So if we were to institute a normal minimum wage for servers, many fear that the restaurant industry would lose business as meal costs rosse to help the employer pay the difference in wage and still maintain the same level of profitability. And the restaurant industry would lobby Congress and fight it every step of the way.

 

I also wonder how it would affect the quality of employees here, though. If you are at a minimum wage job in the US as it stands now - it is usually bottom of the barrel type job and the people it attracts often are not literate, or have criminal records, etc.

 

The question becomes - with tips no longer required I believe most Americans would stop tipping alltogether due to our value-conscious society. If the restaurants are only paying minimum wage they are only going to get minimum wage quality workers where as it stands now many US servers are college students, or moms that want to stay home with the kids during the day, etc. How did that work out in the UK? Do restaurants tend to pay more than the minimum in order to attract good employees? Here at least - minimum wage is really not enough for anyone to make a decent living on in this country and minimum wage earners are very poor by our standards.

 

With our minimum wage just a little under $10 an hour, we have alot of part time employees...mothers, students etc...that do shorter hours just to get a few quid extra a week.

 

It used to be a standing joke over here at one time that only the school failures would get a job in a burger place since you don't need to have any qualifications to flip a piece of meat, well that is true but now that the minimum wage of just under the $10 an hour is in place, even the people with poor academic backgrounds have a decent wage packet at the end of the week. And they can get more than the basic wage too with overtime and tips, so the ethos has really changed over here in recent years. Working in a burger bar doesn't automatically mean that you're the dumbest kid on the block being paid peanuts anymore.

[Goldryder]

As a Brit, there is an expectation here that the advertised or agreed price is what we pay. For instance, price tickets in UK shops include sales tax (VAT) whereas in the US they do not.

 

Everyone in the UK is paid the minimum wage by law and this is strictly enforced. There are fines for businesses who cheat their staff. Some restaurants/hotels have been using tips to subsidise staff wages but this will be illegal by the end of this year. Any tips will then be on top of the minimum wage or whatever the pay rate is.

 

I tip taxi drivers and my barber with about 10% of the bill.

 

That, I think, is where the main difference on minimum wage lies...over here, if you stiff your employees and don't pay the legal minimum wage, you get the full weight of the law onto you. Employers here are forced to comply so their employees are not dependent on tips to make up their wage packets at the end of the week.

 

From the sounds of it, the US has a minimum wage but it isn't enforced, so employers shaft their employees and get away with it...by using the percentage gratuity, an employer can then knowingly cut the wage by that same amount, leaving the employee to make it up. That is dead wrong.

 

Thankfully that sort of behaviour is outlawed here in the UK.

[alwayshappytocruise]

I agree totally with this. The principle in the UK and I believe most of europe is we tip for excellent service at a rate we determine- this may be 10% or 50% . The staff do not expect a set % unlike the lady who served us in Florida who believe she deserved 18% and when we tipped below that she was very rude and aggressive- she was lucky to get 10% in my opinion-her attitude cost the diner business for the rest of the week.

 

The original post pointed to the English- it would seem many others are uncomfortable with pre-payed gratuities of a set amount

 

Not to be argumentative but how did she know how much you were going to tip her since you seem to think this is why she was rude? If she was rude and argumentative then I wouldn't have tipped her anything and if she was rude when I was ordering I would have left the restaraunt after telling the manager why I was leaving. Just my 2 cents.....

[Will&Hel]

Not to be argumentative but how did she know how much you were going to tip her since you seem to think this is why she was rude? If she was rude and argumentative then I wouldn't have tipped her anything and if she was rude when I was ordering I would have left the restaraunt after telling the manager why I was leaving. Just my 2 cents.....

 

Good call - hindsight says we should have walked out but the food was excellent. She was rude from the start and even ruder when we reduced the tip.

[framerman]

Maybe that's how Americans get such a bad reputation around the world, we're always telling other countries/peoples/cultures how they should live their lives. If the English or any other country do not wish to Tip, that is their business and as long as it doesn't strain meaningful International Relationships or violate established Basic Human Rights, why should anyone else care. JMHO

 

couldn't agree more!

[vacruizer]

That, I think, is where the main difference on minimum wage lies...over here, if you stiff your employees and don't pay the legal minimum wage, you get the full weight of the law onto you. Employers here are forced to comply so their employees are not dependent on tips to make up their wage packets at the end of the week.

 

From the sounds of it, the US has a minimum wage but it isn't enforced, so employers shaft their employees and get away with it...by using the percentage gratuity, an employer can then knowingly cut the wage by that same amount, leaving the employee to make it up. That is dead wrong.

 

Thankfully that sort of behaviour is outlawed here in the UK.

 

 

Normal minimum wage laws are enforced here if a complaint is made IF it's a standard job that doesn't include tips to make it up. The quirk of the service industry that can go by the lower minimum standards is that if the employee does complain, since the tips are paid in cash the employers will try to say that the employee lied and didn't report their cash earnings and it becomes the word of the employer against the employee since there's not way to prove it. Where with a regular job say flipping burgers (our fast food restaurants do get minimum wage as tips are not expected there) the employee can prove they punched the time clock at X time and out at Y time and is thus due the wage.

 

In the resaurant business the only wage due is the minimum that many states allow at only $2 or $3 an hour and even though the law says the employer must make up the difference if the server didn't make enough tips to bring it up - there's no way to prove how much the server made if the tips (or lack thereof) were in cash.

[Nemspy]

And where do you think the "liveable wage" comes from? The consumer of course. At least with a tip you can adjust it up or down to reward good service and punish bad. You, the consumer, are in charge.

 

I'm amazed by the people that can't seem to grasp that what a business pays is related to what a business charges. You think they have a printing press in the back churning out $20's?

 

 

Perhaps it's because I grew up without a tipping culture (Australia), but I would far prefer to pay more for my meals etc because the employer is paying a fair wage than have to mess about with tipping. I absolutely detest the practice (although I do it - as you have pointed out - when in Rome, however reluctantly, you do as the Romans do).

 

The main thing that I dislike about tipping as it stands in the US these days is how it is bleeding over from places it is actually appropriate into areas where it really isn't required. If you go to an expensive salon for a $200 hair cut, do you really think the highly trained professionals there aren't on a living wage?

 

I can understand the bother and confusion "expected" tipping can cause for tourists unfamiliar with US tipping culture. Before I came here I assumed it was "optional", but really it is "optional*" with the asterisk denoting that really it isn't. Not only is it absolutely expected, people are ready to have a go at you for such things as:

 

Refusing to tip bad service - I absolutely will not leave a cent if my server spent the entire meal talking with friends, ignoring us, mysteriously never showing up again because we ordered water as a beverage and therefore must be "cheap". In this culture of supposed "optional" tipping I still am flamed on various boards because "waiters put up with a lot of crap" and apparently I should tip them even if they treat me like dirt. I know not everyone feels this way, but it's a good indicator of the ambiguity and awkwardness of tipping, especially to an outsider.

 

I also view 20% as an awesome tip, yet I discovered facebook pages created by and populated by disgruntled service industry staff such as "If you aren't going to tip at least 20% don't eat out". It's the whole entitlement culture that gets me down. I'll generally tip 15-20% at a restaurant and 10-15% for buffet.

 

As some have pointed out, tipping can be seen as offensive in some parts of the world and I know the US is not one such part, but please remember tipping can be much WEIRDER for us than it would be for you to not tip. I remember the first ever time I tipped at Chilis at LAX - It was a mortifying experience. I felt like an aristocrat throwing a bone to a lowly manservant. It took me the best part of a year to get used to the way waiters (the good ones) never leave you alone while eating - constantly asking if everything is OK, how the food is etc. I was very conscious that this was because they were trying hard to be seen as giving "good service" and I felt bad for them having to suck up. I don't know how it is in England, but in Australia if you want a waiter you generally have to catch their attention with some eye contact or something (easily done if you are used to it), so it is offputting to have people hovering over you all the time, especially when you know WHY they are doing it.

 

Anyway, I'm not saying these people did the right thing by removing tips, but when you've lived your whole life in a non tipping culture and always hear how tipping is "optional" in the US, it's very awkward and ambiguous. Not everyone knows about the whole "living wage thing" and it could easily be lumped into "one of those crazy things Americans do" like peanut butter with chocolate, peanut butter and jelly, and Church. :)