RachelG

Interesting that you found the hamburger at the grill good, as we just got off Wind and the hamburgers were borderline inedible. My husband even talked to the chef about this. He had said they had many complaints, but that they weren’t able to source American beef, and that the beef they were getting was Italian.

I agree as far as the veranda suites. They have not been updated at all. The upper level suite have been. The restaurants and lounges look updated but there were missing pieces of wood upstairs on the deck railing

That is a great itinerary. We just got off Wind today so following along will prevent me going into withdrawal

A comparison—veranda suite vs medallion suite on Silver Wind I thought I would write up a little side to side comparison of these two, since we had opportunity to experience both on the same cruise. Some things may surprise you. Background: we booked a veranda suite as usual-616. Unfortunately, every night at about 4 am, we would be assaulted by a strong cigarette smoke smell. The GM and staff did their best to figure it out and fix it, but it kept occurring, so after 4 nights, we were moved to a medallion suite—803, which features no smoke smell. Size—obviously medallion wins here as there are completely separate bedroom and sitting/dining areas. The balcony is much larger with 2 loungers, table and 3 chairs vs 2 chairs and a table. Unfortunately it was too cold most of the time on our cruise to use it other than to pop outside for a quick picture. Bathroom is considerably larger as well. Closet is configured differently but about the same size. More hanging space in the medallion. Bathroom—medallion is the clear winner here as the bathroom has been totally redone with double sinks that are inset into the counter. The veranda suites have a larger single sink which is above the counter and just not practical at all as, if you are brushing your teeth and don’t hold the toothbrush just right under the water, water goes every where. In the medallion, there is a proper shower with a shower door that closes completely. In the veranda, they have converted the TU to a shower, and there is no door, just glass half way across, so there is potential for water to go everywhere there as well. Veranda bathroom sometimes a sort of sour sewage smell. There is no smell other than that of soap in the medallion bathroom. However, the lighting is better in the veranda. Sitting/dining area—medallion has a sofa, coffee table and chair plus a dining table and 2 dining chairs. Veranda has sofa, coffee table and chair only, BUT the sofa in the veranda is a proper sofa length, while the one in medallion is very short, just large enough to seat myself and George side by side. Not long enough to stretch out on at all. The chair in the medallion is quite upright and uncomfortable as well. There is another chair at the desk which is the same type. These could be placed at the table too, if you had guests come in to dine. If you were a person who liked dining in the suite a lot, medallion would be better, but for us, I actually preferred the veranda sitting area. Veranda wins on this one. Bedroom area—basically the same, though the medallion one can be completely closed off which is nice if one person likes to sleep late and the other is an early riser. We liked this. So slight edge to medallion. Noise—medallion is the clear winner as it is almost too quiet. It is hard to hear announcements, particularly if you are in the bedroom, and there is no traffic at all in the hallway. Storage—surprising, but there is more usable storage area in the veranda suite. The drawers are deeper and larger in the veranda suite. I was barely able to put 2 sweaters in one of the drawers in the medallion suite whereas 4 easily fit in the veranda drawers. And there are more drawers in veranda. Windows—again, veranda wins here as there is a larger window and door to the balcony. In the medallion there are two, one in the sitting area and one in the bedroom, but they are smaller. The other issue is that, in the far north in summer, it doesn’t really get dark. In the veranda suite, there is a curtain between the sitting and sleeping areas which you can pull to make it very dark. That is not possible in the medallion suites. Accessibility—not an issue for us, but if a person has any issues with going up or down stairs, the medallion suites on 8 forward would not be for them. There is no forward elevator, and if the pool deck is closed off for cleaning or bad weather, you have to use the stairs as you can’t get to the elevators. So—bottom line is we enjoyed the medallion suite, but we would not pay extra for it.

june 16, 2023–disembarkation in Hamburg when we awoke, we were docked at the Altona Cruise terminal. It is a passenger terminal, though there is a huge industrial port across the way. We had a moment of panic when George thought he might have packed all his shirts in the luggage we set out last night, but fortunately he found one. we had a very quick breakfast as ours were grey tags, which they said would be called between 8:30 and 9:30, and were actually called at 8:25. So we were out the door with our luggage and in a taxi (there were plenty waiting) at 8:30. we had to fly home today, but our flight isn’t until 2:35 pm, going HAM-LHR and LHR-BOS today on BA, staying overnight in Boston at the Hilton, then going BOS-DFW and DFW-TUL tomorrow morning, using FF miles for the entire ticket which was actually a very good use of miles, and we don’t mind breaking up to trip in Boston. we drove through areas of Hamburg that were not particularly attractive. Lots of graffiti everywhere and weeds and overgrown shrubbery. I hope there are areas which look better. We had hoped to be able to drop off our luggage at the BA counter then go to the botanical garden, but the BA counter wasn’t open yet. There is a left luggage counter, but it was looking like rain, so we just decided to wait at the airport. George was able to do some work. i am a bit annoyed with Silversea though as they would not refund us for the non-use of the hotel in Hamburg and transport to the airport (hate the door to door pricing but it was all that was offered), and they wouldn’t let us just take their transport to the hotel and store our luggage while we went sightseeing or provide transport to the airport. I think they could have been more accommodating since they were happy to take our money.

June 15, 2023–Kiel Canal, Germany The cruise is nearing an end. We have today on board then home tomorrow. Today is a sort of sea day, which I prefer at the end of the trip to get everything packed, etc, but George is sad because we won’t be going on land. When I got up, looking outside I could see a huge windmill farm in the sea to one side, literally hundreds of windmills. We were in a marine traffic lane now, so seeing more ships than the entire previous cruise. The weather was pleasant, in the low 60s with some wind, but it was hazy. We had morning trivia, and we came in third, mainly due to not paying enough attention to the facts about the island we were on yesterday. When I went back to the suite, suitcases had already been laid out. There was to be a pub lunch buffet on the pool deck. However, the wind had really whipped up, and it was pretty chilly, so they moved it indoors to the restaurant. The fish and chips was just ok—fish was tough, and the chips were not hot. But I had good pea soup. The steak and ale pie was pretty good. George thought the best part was the Eton Mess, which is a dessert. As we neared the entrance to the canal, we saw literally hundreds of sailboats, big and small. There was some sort of regatta going on. There was announcement that entry to the lock was delayed an hour and a half. I have been through a lot of locks, and I think this is not that unusual. I remember a lot of waiting around going through the Panama Canal. They have to have enough ships clumped together to go through at one time. Some other ships, all cargo, turned up from both directions, and we went through the first lock. The weather had significantly improved, and it was warm and sunny with little wind. Perfect for sailing through the canal. There were fields and forest on both sides, with lots of birds chirping, swans and ducks in the water. It was really peaceful and relaxing. We finally were able to sit on our balcony. The captain’s farewell was really nice, particularly since he is leaving the ship and going to Endeavor. He gave a great talk to the crew. Dinner was in Hot Rocks or whatever it is currently called with JP, Chris, David and Laura. It was a great meal with wonderful company. My steak was perfectly cooked, LOL, since I cooked it. We had to return to the room to finish packing. Very sad.

They don’t exchange them onboard.

Didn’t take pictures of the buffet as I didn’t have my iPhone with me.

June 14, 2023–Christianso Island, Denmark Another bright sunny day. When I awoke, we were chugging along across the smooth Baltic toward Christianso Island, the easternmost island of Denmark, and Frederikso, a tiny adjacent island connected by a bridge. We don’t arrive until 4 pm, so there will be lectures today, etc. Christianso used to be a Danish naval fortress, and the fortifications are still there. About 90 people live there now, and they have a grocery, a pub, a school, and even a doctor, who brews beer in his spare time since there aren’t that many patients. Frederickso used to be a prison for political prisoners, and there is a graveyard where cholera victims were buried. I did a bit of work as internet has almost recovered, then a walk around the top deck. It was very pleasant with little wind. George slept in then went for a workout in the gym. He came back flustered due to culture shock. A German couple came in the sauna where he was sitting, and proceeded to take off their towels, having nothing on underneath. We are used to the separate saunas for men and women on Regent. There was a seafood buffet for lunch on the pool deck. Lobster and crab legs, p,us a bunch of other seafood. George and I had already eaten salads and shrimp in La Terrazza, but he had to have a second lunch and said the crab was great, but the lobster was small and over cooked. (Seafood buffet on Regent no longer included crab legs, so it was nice to see those.). While we were eating, we noticed a naval ship sailing along beside us. They sailed parallel for quite a long time very close by, then turned and went to the other side and sailed parallel on that side though not as close. Then a fighter jet again flew over us from both sides, not nearly as close as the other day though. Early trivia—another win with only 2 missed answers out of 21, and one of those was the year the first automobile was invented which we were only off by a year. As we were finishing up, we started seeing a cute little island off to the side of the ship. We anchored and zodiacs were dispatched. Soon our groups were called. George was first off, anxious to explore. It is such a beautiful island. Every direction and step is a photo op. Lots of birds,bullfrogs making a racket, some seals. The old fortifications are mostly intact, and you can hike around and go Inside the towers. In the large one, they have some historical info, but the small one is a gem. Lots of old stuff with every hand tool you can imagine, a medical exhibit with a gyn table and obstetrical forceps that I could use today if needed. It was really interesting. We walked all over both islands. We were given 3 types of herring and the locally brewed beer. I hate beer, but this was tolerable. I also thought I hated herring, and I still wouldn’t order it off a menu, but this wasn’t bad. Back on board, we had dinner at the main dining room. We both had the asparagus and goat cheese salad which was great. I had gazpacho which was delicious and spicy. George had smoked salmon. I had ordered mushroom risotto as my main dish, very rich but yummy. George’s fish was inedible, so he sent it back and got the risotto as well. Then we both finished off with the raspberry soufflé watching a beautiful sunset.

George and the old boat

Saaremaa church

June 13, 2023–Saaremaa, Estonia Again, another time zone change-an hour forward again as we went back to the East.. This time I was prepared for what ever shenanigans my iPhone had in store. Sure enough, it didn’t move forward, but George’s did, and I had set the alarm allowing an extra hour just in case. It was another bright sunny day. Looking out, we could see a fairly flat and tree covered island, Saaremaa which is an island off the coast of Estonia. Our excursion for the day was to Harilaid, at the northwest corner. It is a peninsula that juts out into the Baltic and is a national park, mostly a bird sanctuary. There was actually, for the first time this trip, another cruise ship in port. The Amadea, which appears to be a German ship, was at the dock. It looks like a monstrosity compared to Silver Wind, and it is not pretty at all. Wind had to anchor, with zodiac rides to the pier. We boarded our little bus and went through the beautiful countryside to the park. Part of the drive was through pine forest, but there were also fields of hay, some cattle, horses, and cute villages. When we arrived at the park, we set off on a flat trail which goes around the peninsula, 11 km, partly packed dirt, partly sand, and some gravel. The sea was to our left, and pine forest to the right. We saw several pairs of swan and heard a lot of other birds. We passed a shipwrecked boat which has clearly been there a long while, and is rusting away, half covered with sand. There is a leaning lighthouse on a broad beach, and apparently sometimes, seals hang out there, but not today. It was a long hike. When we returned to the parking lot, we had a snack of a local bread which is sort of like a croissant. On the way back to the ship, we stopped at a village with a little store. There was a man splitting wood by hand, a old church, and several interesting buildings. Back to the ship, we were really hungry so had a late lunch at the Grill. George says the hot dog is better than the hamburger, but not as good as a quiktrip hot dog, and not nearly as good as the sausages we ate in Finland. We did terrible at trivia. Too many dates, which is a particularly weak point of mine, and soccer questions, another weak point. We had dinner again at La Dame as George wanted to try some different dishes. I again ordered the lobster salad, but then switched up and had quinoa followed by the steak. It was very nice, and the steak was perfectly prepared. George had fois gras, mushroom soup, followed by steak and he said all were good. He finished with the pistachio souffle while I had a strawberry and chocolate thing which was sort of like flan. It was good but had a gelatinous coating which was weird. There was a dance party outside after with all sorts of chocolate. I couldn’t eat any more, but it was fun.

George at the lighthouse

June 12, 2023–Gotska Island, Sweden At last, we were able to have a nice sleep in as we were not to arrive at Gotska Island until afternoon. We were sailing south, on a smooth sea with tiny ripples. The sun was out brightly, and the temperature was very comfortable in the upper 60s. Our destination for the day, Gotska Island, is mostly uninhabited, with a white sand beach on the perimeter and dense pine forest in the center. It is home to a lot of birds and also grey seals. They offered the usual assortment of lectures during the morning then had early recap and briefing at 11:00. For lunch, an Asian Fusion buffet was offered on the pool deck. It was the perfect day as it was sunny and not cold, but the food was disappointing. Not a lot of choices and not nearly as good as the one on Regent. We went inside and got ice cream for dessert. But while we were sitting outside, all of a sudden we hear this loud roar, and were buzzed by an F16 not once, but twice. Not sure what lol that was about, but he was very low and close to the ship. About 1:30 pm, we could see a long low island just ahead, with white sand beaches all around and forest in the middle. Shortly afterward, the anchor was dropped. We were on the first zodiac over, very smooth ride. The staff had made a makeshift dock from pallets on the sand. We did the long hike, which was a proper hike, 10 km over mostly sandy terrain with some steep hills thrown in. But before we took off, we were again buzzed by the jets, 3 times. Someone said they are doing some sort of NATO operations in the area, not sure why they are buzzing cruise ships. Then I heard our guide from the ship calling my name. I looked over, and there is George, driving one of the tractors the rangers use to keep the landing and paths in order. After we pried him off the tractor, we hiked through beautiful pine forest, then birch. There was a little chapel in a meadow. Apparently you can rent it for weddings and the like. We ended up at the little village which is where the rangers live and where there are some cabins you can rent in the summer. There is also a campground. The lighthouse was open, and one of the rangers was there giving commentary. George climbed to the top. We were ready to go back to the ship after all that. We had dinner in La Terrazza with friends. I felt my lamb was over cooked as did George , but we had plenty of food.

Dolebludger, I may not be reading 5is correctly, but it doesn’t sound to me like the husband is an employee. It sounds like he is an attorney, as is my husband. George has frequently had to do zoom calls while on vacation as a judge demanded it, OP is talking about a mediation, and to me that says lawyer, since he is the one leading the call.

They don’t have coins, but they do carry smaller bills

I would use my cellular service. In Vancouver, you should have a good connection. You can do that from wherever you like. I routinely attend zoom meetings using my iPad or cell phone.

June 11, 2023–Ornskoldsvik Sweden Sadly, it was time to say good by (hei hei) to Finland for now, but we loved it and will definitely be back. We sailed pretty much straight across the Gulf of Bothnia to Sweden. Also gained an hour of sleep. When we awoke, we were in Ornskoldsvik, a cute town of 29,000, with old buildings and new modern apartment buildings, plus a ski jump right in the middle of town. There were some small mountain visible in the distance. The weather was getting warmer, with high to be in the upper 60s and bright sunshine. Our excursion for the day was a hike on Gula Leden which is a small tree covered granite mountain, about 1000 feet elevation gain. We boarded the bus to the trailhead. In the briefing, our expedition leader kept emphasizing how difficult of a hike this would be. It really wasn’t that difficult, but it was one way, so no option to just set down and wait till the group came back or turn around and go down on your own. George loved it because our local guide, Lars, was totally ok with him going off wherever he wanted, and he didn’t get yelled at. We hiked up and up for about 45 minutes on mostly solid granite trails, interspersed with some roots. The roots were a little more challenging at times, and if it had been wet, the stone would have been as well. We took a short break at a nice overlook. Everyone was keeping up pretty well. We hiked another 45 minutes with a more gentle elevation change to the top where there was a great overlook, with a little shelter built there. We stopped for fika which is basically a coffee break, a Swedish thing where you sip coffee and have a little snack and chat. Lars’ daughter, Jessica, had brought cinnamon rolls which were very nice. Then a short walk to the bus as there is a road up the back side of the mountain. We drove to another spot right above the ski jump and had some great views of the ship from there. We drove back to the ship. George and I decided to do a little bit of walking in the town. It was very quiet. There were lots of cute looking shops, and I would have spent some money, but everything was closed, it being Sunday. We also would have eaten in town, but the only place we found open was a coffee shop that didn’t really sell food. So back to the ship for lunch. In the afternoon, we began sailing south out of the fjord, very scenic with tree covered mountains and cute little towns on both sides. We sailed past an island which supposedly has a lot of birds, and a narrated sail by was planned. But the wind had really picked up and it was just too cold and windy to be outside. Plus we were too far away from the island to really see much. Trivia was interrupted a couple of times with announcements that we were going under a big bridge, but we won. Recap and briefing was cancelled. Tonight was the Venetian Society party and dinner. We were invited to dine with the guest relations manager, who we have gotten to know quite well over the smoking issue. At the reception, they recognized those with the most days. We weren’t even close. Dinner in La Terrazza was delicious as usual. George got the lasagna which is big enough to feed both of us. Then we went to play Majority Rules, a silly game which is actually very funny.

Quick question, Z—how did you get from LHR to Southampton? George and I are starting a cruise there in September, and I am looking at transportation options.

We have been in Finland for the past week on Silversea and are now in Sweden. Finland was cold every day, sometimes very cold. We had to layer a lot. Today is the first warmish day we have had and it is about 65 F.

I think the food is better actually. Or perhaps it is just more to my American taste.

June 10, 2023–Valsorarna Island and Vaasa Finland The seas were totally smooth during the night, and we slept so soundly, so soundly in fact that the thing that woke me up was the zodiac announcement. WhAt? I had set the alarm for 5:10 am as we were to be ready for the zodiac at 6 am. It hadn’t gone off. We quickly scurried into our clothes and were at the zodiac platform in 6 minutes which has to be a record. And we weren’t the last to arrive, and actually had to wait about 5 minutes to board. I had a chance to look to the alarm on my phone, and sure enough, it was set for 5:10 am, so no idea why it didn’t go off. It was really a perfect morning with bright sun, little wind, and distinctly warmer with the temperature around 55F which is perfect for hiking. We landed at a nice concrete dock. Valsorarna is a small flat island off the west coast of Finland. It used to be inhabited, but now no one lives there. There are a few fishing cabins, but it is a protected nature reserve and access is strictly regulated. Our goal was to hike to the lighthouse and back. You have to stick to the trail and stay with the guide. There are some sheep and moose on the island though we didn’t see them, but we did see their evidence. The area was quite different from where we have been previously on this trip. The ground is very rocky and covered with juniper and blueberry bushes. No dense forest, but a lot of birch trees. And about a billion mosquitos. Our guide reassured us that there about 45 different species of mosquito on this island, and only 3-4 bite people. We hiked past a huge burial ground for Russian soldiers who died here, not from a battle, but because they were totally ill equipped for the harsh conditions. Between 400 and 1000 died. The Russians just left the bodies where they fell. Years later, a Finnish lady launched a campaign to gather all the remains and bury them properly. We walked over an old stone bridge that now goes over nothing as the stream has filled in, then through a big swamp where they have made a boardwalk. Mosquitos were so dense, it was like a fogbank. Even with mosquito repellent and my hood up, I got quite a few bites. We trudged on and arrived at the lighthouse, which was built by the same person who designed the Eiffel tower. It is bright red and steel. You can see the design resemblance. There were the buildings where the keepers and there families lived, but which are now falling to disrepair. We had to retrace our steps to get back to the dock, so we power walked through the mosquitos. The zodiac ride back to the ship was one of the best. The ocean was totally still, so we got to go fast. We set sail for Vaasa. And I solved the mystery of the missing alarm. All morning, my iPhone time kept switching time zones back and forth between Finland and Sweden. So it was apparently in the wrong zone when the alarm was to go off. Lunch was an Indian buffet. Usually, on cruise ships, when Indian food is served,the spice level is taken down several notches to a point that it is barely a mild curry. Not so today. I love spicy food, and this was just the ticket. George almost cried due to the spiciness though. We had an early trivia where we came in 2nd as we couldn’t remember what a baby rabbit is called (we should have know that) and we could only think of 3 of the members of the Jackson 5. All the while, we were sailing through what appeared to be a very narrow and shallow channel toward Vaasa. We arrived at the dock in Vaasa early, an hour and a half early, but they couldn’t move up the tours to earlier or let us off the ship earlier, which was disappointing. It is another commercial port, not really set up for cruise ships, so you can’t just wander off the ship on your own. Originally, on the schedule we received when made our tour reservations, the timings were different (we were to arrive in Vaasa at 1 pm), and I signed us up for a meteorite excursion which would have been done in time for us to eat dinner ashore. So I made dinner reservations at a very nice restaurant which has reindeer steak on the menu as George wanted to try that. Then 2 days ago, they said we would be arriving later at 4 pm. So I cancelled the excursion, so that we could keep our dinner reservation. We caught the shuttle to downtown. Vaasa is a large town with a nice central area downtown. There is the usual city hall and large church and lots of shops and restaurants along the Main Street. We did see a couple of homeless people who clearly had mental health issues, and more cultural diversity (some Muslims speaking Arabic, some people of African descent). We walked around a bit, went into the grocery store to check things out, then went to our restaurant which was bustling business with a view of the bay. George and I shared a beet starter and burrata with roasted tomatoes, then he had reindeer streak and I had the local perch. All finished off with rhubarb pie. It was really delicious and very high quality for what we considered to be a very reasonable price. We ended up back at city hall to take the shuttle bus back. It wasn’t there yet, but the bus for those on the walking tour was, so they let us ride too.

June 9, 2023–Oulu Finland The alarm went off at 2:30 am for our 3 am excursion, an owl watching tour. We were at dock in a large industrial port. It was very cold and windy. We boarded the van along with 9 other intrepid souls and our guide, a very enthusiastic Finnish fellow who clearly know his stuff when it comes to birds and nature in Finland. No traffic, but daylight already. We drove into the forested countryside. Along the way, we spotted several hare, large and brown with a while puffy tail. Further along, we saw moose, 1 on one side, and 2 on the other. They were close by, so we got a good look. We arrived at the trailhead and hiked a short way into the forest to an undisclosed location where there is an owl nest. Mama owl and her 3 chicks were home, and we got some very good views. The babies are super cute. Then all of a sudden, Dad swooped in to deliver breakfast. It was pretty spectacular to see him with wings spread. We were freezing from just standing there, so we got back into the van and went to a campsite beside a lake where they built a fire. The ship had sent snack boxes, mostly pure carbs, so I only ate the small sandwich, but there was good hot tea and coffee as well as the now ubiquitous blueberry juice and chocolate covered blueberries. The fire was really quite nice once it got going. Back in the van, we went to another site, but no luck there, so we moved on to another where there is a nesting box set back pretty far in the woods. No good trail here. We hiked over soft mossy ground and through a lot of brush to the box where a little yellow eye peaked out at us. That was all we could see. Back to the van, we were warned to check for ticks. We returned to the ship. George was supposed to do the white water swimming, but he was frozen from the owls so took a nap. I was scheduled for a Nordic walk through town. We took a bus to the town center. By now it was bright and sunny but still cold with a sharp wind. We needed to get moving. They decided us into two groups-I was in the all walking, no talking group. Poles were available for those who wanted them. We went through the town center with some interesting statues and pretty spring flowers then into parkland that runs all through the town. There is an extensive network of bike/pedestrian paths which go all over the city so that you can easily get around with encountering motorized vehicles. We did a little over 5 km at a brisk pace and ended up at a restaurant where we had a snack of Finnish pancakes with lingonberry jam and whipped cream. The bus took us back to the ship, with a drop of in the town center for those who wanted. I went back to the ship to fetch George, and we were off to find lunch, hopefully some slacks and a warmer jacket for George. We ate lunch at a small Italian place. The owner/waiter is from Parma, and his wife, the chef, is from Amalfi. The menu is limited but authentic and delicious. She was making the pasta fresh to order. George had ravioli with a cherry tomato sauce and I had tagliatelle with pesto and licorice. So good! And very reasonably priced. A couple of local ladies who had also been eating in the restaurant insisted on walking us to the shopping mall in the middle of town. We easily found two good jackets for George which was on sale 50% off, but the search for dress slacks was impossible. All the slacks we found were very narrow at the bottom and would not work with George’s dress boots. And the only other shoes he brought are hiking shoes and sneakers. We took the shuttle back to the ship. Trivia was a win. Then I was able to get some work done as the internet is back to working. We had dinner in La Terrazza. There is a cute 6 year old boy on board with his parents. He is a joy. Perfectly behaved, and we got to sit next to them. George has started playing little games with him that he played with our boys when they were young, so they had a great time. Dinner was delicious. We both had salad and lentil soup, then George had a pesto past and I had the shrimp which was outstanding. Tiramisu for dessert—yum. There was karaoke tonight, but our tour leaves at 6am and I need some sleep after getting up at 2:30 am.

I have had multiple different versions of the jacket. The old ones which were a single piece were great if you were in sub zero temps, but not so much otherwise. The two piece ones are much more versatile as you can mix and match as needed