comparison of per diem food cost per passenger

[happy cruzer]

I think the per diems you posted are high. Maybe that was the case a few years ago but not today.

 

Also...... Seeing as Carnival Family of Ships are all supplied by Carnival Corporation, their buying power is immense.

 

Costa, Carnival, Cunard, Seabourn, HAL, Princess..... They buy lots of eggs, milk, ketchup for amazingly low prices.

 

By the way, the "Punters" notice. Some of us actually pay for those Suites and know what the per diem is that we pay for our cruises. We are well aware caviar has disappeared from the menus.

 

 

 

If we notice things, I imagine the comment forms are our best way to let the lines know we notice. One longer cruises, I bring my own cheapo caviar on board with my own not cheapo champagne and get the fixings from the salad bar (sorta).

 

DH doesn't like that the casinos don't have the same odds as some of the looser land based ones. He always comments on that. And I always comment on the wine policies of the line we are sailing on- good and bad. Usually very good on HAL.

 

It sounds lame but policies have been turned around by massive amounts of comments. I believe the lobsters are still on Carnival menues because of customer comments. And NCL still has bar setups available because of customer comments. I could be all wet but I will continue to use the comment card as an easy way to voice my opinion.

 

Cheers

[euro cruiser]

One of the issues raised by several posters was the cost of staff that prepare and serve all that food. For the mass market cruise lines, the total cost of keeping a rank and file employee onboard a ship for one day is around US$14. Since we contract employees to work for 13 hours per day, our total non-management labor cost runs just over $1 per hour, per employee. Probably a smaller number than most would guess.

Either these employees don't have health insurance, or that cost isn't in this number.

 

It is sobering to realize how little these folks make ... but it's the only way we can enjoy "affordable" cruises. It's an interesting contradiction that the cruise lines offer price reductions for union members ... who get a price break while enjoying the fruits of laborers who could clearly benefit from collective bargaining and other aspectss of organized labor.

[greatam]

Either these employees don't have health insurance, or that cost isn't in this number.

 

It is sobering to realize how little these folks make ... but it's the only way we can enjoy "affordable" cruises. It's an interesting contradiction that the cruise lines offer price reductions for union members ... who get a price break while enjoying the fruits of laborers who could clearly benefit from collective bargaining and other aspectss of organized labor.

 

OT-OH, PLEASE. Get out in the world a little bit. Do you realize that US GOVERNMENT CONTRACTORS overseas hire tremendous amounts of TCN's (Third Country Nationals) to work on US Military bases worldwide? These people are paid with US TAX DOLLARS. There is NO health insurance, NO collective bargaining. In fact, US citizens (expats) working overseas for US Prime Contractors are NOT allowed to collect unemployment even if they are laid off, SS/Medicare is NOT paid and health care overseas is generally provided by agreements between the military and the contractor. If you exceed the $250,000 cap on care (including evac and rehabilitation), you are on your own. Family health care is generally paid by the employee and IT IS NOT CHEAP.

 

I have spent quite a bit of time in the last year on US Military bases in the MidEast (Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Jordan). There are MANY TCN's working on these bases. Average pay-about $10.00 per day. CONSIDERABLY more than they make in their home countries. This allows them to pay for childrens education, purchase a home and most of them accumulate enough money to start a business when they go back home.

 

Cruise ship employees work in much nicer conditions and don't have to worry about getting killed from a rocket, gunfire or land mine. You are not in Kansas anymore, Toto!!! Why would you even think American mores, customs and standards would be implemented for foreign workers when US Expats are not even given those things???

[Taxguy77]

Excellent questions. But the answers are not as easy. The US Government has taken the liberty of claiming that certain US Laws apply to foreign flag ships that:

 

1. carry US Citizens

2. have offices in the USA

3. sell passage to people in the USA

4. call at US Ports.

5. sail anywhere on the "high seas"

 

Is this legal? Who knows. I'm not a lawyer. It sounds a bit dodgey to me.

 

But if the foreign flag ships do not agree to the US Government's wishes, they (and possibly all the other ships belonging to that cruise line) could be summarily banned from calling at US Ports. The cruise lines dare not take that chance.

 

Examples:

A German citizen flies to Miami and boards a foreign flag ship that is crossing back to Europe. He walks into the ship's casino a few days later and wins US$10,000. The cruise line is required by the US Government to deduct US Income Tax from his winnings before paying him out - even though he is not a US Citizen or Resident, and he won the money outside the USA, in International Waters.

 

You are a US Citizen who walks into Diamonds International (at the advice of your onboard shopping hostess) in Aruba and buys something Duty Free. Since the cruise line promotes Diamonds International, we are required to report your purchase to US Customs before the end of the cruise. If we don't, there will be many unexpected "problems" getting the ship cleared in future US Port stops.

 

P&O Cruise ships are primarily calling at ports outside the USA. But the US Government claims that since some of their ships occasionally stop in US Ports, none of their ships is allowed to carry or sell Cuban cigars even if those ships NEVER enter US Waters. There is a US$1 million fine for P&O (and all other cruise lines) if they are caught.

 

If a cruise line has 20 ships, and just one ship visits Cuba, all 20 ships in the fleet are banned from entering any US Port.

 

The CDC ruled that all ships from my cruise line - even if they never visit the USA - must follow CDC guidelines for purchasing, storing, preparing, and serving food. (I don't disagree with this rule by the way). But if they find out that one of our ships sailing in China is not following some of their guidelines, they can ban all of our ships from entering US Ports.

 

Perfect examples of the power the gov't. throws around!:eek:

It also explains why Royal Clipper and her sister ships do not enter US Ports, but the food is exellent.:)

[euro cruiser]

US GOVERNMENT CONTRACTORS overseas hire tremendous amounts of TCN's (Third Country Nationals) to work on US Military bases worldwide? These people are paid with US TAX DOLLARS. There is NO health insurance, NO collective bargaining.

Yes, but that is a very different situation, you can't reasonably compare security goals with pleasure cruise goals, they're not in the same league.

 

In fact, US citizens (expats) working overseas for US Prime Contractors are NOT allowed to collect unemployment even if they are laid off, SS/Medicare is NOT paid and health care overseas is generally provided by agreements between the military and the contractor. If you exceed the $250,000 cap on care (including evac and rehabilitation), you are on your own. Family health care is generally paid by the employee and IT IS NOT CHEAP.

And that is an employment choice you, and others, make with full knowledge and plenty of alternate options. Not to mention a lot more money than the $10/day you quote for TCN workers.

 

It makes no sense for a wealthy economy to impose its standards on others, it would in fact create chaos to pay US rates to workers in most other places in the world. Your information about pay on military bases shouldn't be news to anyone; it's more than we pay our troops, but they are US citizens being paid a less-than-living wage, in many cases.

 

However, just because people will work for exceedingly low wages because it's better than no wages at all, that doesn't erase the incongruity of enticing union members to take advantage of it. These are, after all, the same union members who are actively encouraged to buy US made products to avoid similar labor issues.

[PennyAgain]

One of my past times on long crossings is to notice when the bananas run out. I usually make time to watch the ship's food coming aboard as it is part of my job to monitor similar tasks. I always watch to see where the eggs come from.

[smeyer418]

Sometimes the regs come before the investigation and analysis. I think a lot of people blamed food quality, and not hygiene, for norovirus outbreaks when they started to become headline news. The CDC thing sounds like a knee-jerk reaction, done to give the appearance of being proactive but in reality does little or nothing to address the root cause of the problem.

 

Something I'm sure you know, but didn't state.

actually the CDC is normally pretty good about investigating before deciding. There is a problem with some overseas suppliers(mainly in China) but I am not sure what they do. As an example I buy bulk frozen cauliflower at Fairway-its made in China! I buy pine nuts from Sahadi's on Atlantic Avenue. I have a choice there of the ones from Belgium at $36 per pound or China at $14.00 per pound(or at Trader Joe's for $14.00 per pound too). In any case this-the Cruise vessel Sanitation- program is voluntary. The Cuban thing that Phillip describes is not voluntary. Its in the Trading with the Enemy act. you can see the act at http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/ Its mandatory and has both criminal and civil penalties. It covers any US national or permanent resident world wide and any one who wants to do business in the US.

Edited November 28, 2009 by smeyer418

[greatam]

Yes, but that is a very different situation, you can't reasonably compare security goals with pleasure cruise goals, they're not in the same league.

 

What are you speaking about??? Electricians, plumbers, dining room staff, stewards, go-fers, painters, etc. etc-all on overseas US military bases, all on cruise ships. Not much difference-just better conditions on a cruise ship. ALL overseas contractors working for Prime Contractors work 7 12 hour days minimum. Some work more hours per day, depending on mission.

 

 

And that is an employment choice you, and others, make with full knowledge and plenty of alternate options. Not to mention a lot more money than the $10/day you quote for TCN workers.

 

It is quite an eye-opener to a lot of US craft people to find out they are NOT working for Fluor, DynCorp, KBR, Lockheed, etc. etc but are instead working for an offshore Cayman Islands "subsidiary" of a major Prime Contractor and are not covered under US labor standards. It is NOT explained well in contracts and the SS/Medicare is a real biggie which causes a lot of US contractors problems at tax time. Yes, the expats make more than $10.00 per day, but that was not the discussion. I operate as a logistics consultant, so work directly for various entities moving food into the bases.

 

Your information about pay on military bases shouldn't be news to anyone; it's more than we pay our troops, but they are US citizens being paid a less-than-living wage, in many cases.

 

I know of NO US military paid $10.00 per day. Most new recruits start at about $24,000 per year plus housing/food/health care/education and many other benefits. That is not even close to "less-than-living wage".

 

Write your Congressman/Senator and give the troops a pay raise (won't happen with this Administration). They definitely deserve it, especially those in Afghanistan!!!!

Edited November 28, 2009 by greatam

[euro cruiser]

What are you speaking about

You are either deliberately missing my point in order to restate your point, or you missed it entirely.

 

US taxpayers "choose" military goals, in a sense, by the way they vote, but in reality how tax dollars are spent to achieve military goals is entirely outside any individual's influence.

 

That is very different from a consumer's choice of a cruise, over which they have complete and ultimate control.

 

And off of this is completely off track from the original discussion of food prices, sorry for hijacking the thread.

Edited November 28, 2009 by euro cruiser

[Gathina]

What does a homeport have to do with it? Nothing, I don't think. The "carribbean" ports Phillip listed are affiliated with the United States, no??

 

Phillip: what about those pesky passengers who gorge themselves on multitudes of lobstertails, etc "because they paid for it"..does that drive the cost up? I never did understand why someone needed to eat that much anyway. LOL

 

 

Or, I was smart enough to stay away from your cruise line.

 

If you read my words carefully, I specifically said US homeported ships generally don't load food in the Caribbean. So, I was talking about ships sailing out of ports like Miami, Fort Lauderdale, New York, etc,. Obviously if a ship cruises out of San Juan that is going to be its primary provisioning port. And, use of the word "generally" doesn't preclude the possibility of them sometimes loading food there.

[Gathina]

All those rich greedy contractors are making giant dollars in some places the miltiary operates..with military personnel doing the same job beside them for peanuts. shameful.

 

What are you speaking about??? Electricians, plumbers, dining room staff, stewards, go-fers, painters, etc. etc-all on overseas US military bases, all on cruise ships. Not much difference-just better conditions on a cruise ship. ALL overseas contractors working for Prime Contractors work 7 12 hour days minimum. Some work more hours per day, depending on mission.

 

 

 

 

It is quite an eye-opener to a lot of US craft people to find out they are NOT working for Fluor, DynCorp, KBR, Lockheed, etc. etc but are instead working for an offshore Cayman Islands "subsidiary" of a major Prime Contractor and are not covered under US labor standards. It is NOT explained well in contracts and the SS/Medicare is a real biggie which causes a lot of US contractors problems at tax time. Yes, the expats make more than $10.00 per day, but that was not the discussion. I operate as a logistics consultant, so work directly for various entities moving food into the bases.

 

 

 

I know of NO US military paid $10.00 per day. Most new recruits start at about $24,000 per year plus housing/food/health care/education and many other benefits. That is not even close to "less-than-living wage".

 

Write your Congressman/Senator and give the troops a pay raise (won't happen with this Administration). They definitely deserve it, especially those in Afghanistan!!!!

[owl61]

An interesting discussion. On a more mundane note, Phillip, do you know where MSC fits in vis a vis the per diem food costs?

[mr green]

An interesting discussion. On a more mundane note, Phillip, do you know where MSC fits in vis a vis the per diem food costs?

 

Too right!!!

 

john

[happy cruzer]

hi, euro cruiser, I love the discussion that it taking place.

 

Remember many cruisers have no health insurance. They won't be too upset that not all the employess or whatever of different companies have no health insurance.

 

Carry on, everyone.

[njhorseman]

What does a homeport have to do with it? Nothing, I don't think. The "carribbean" ports Phillip listed are affiliated with the United States, no??

 

Phillip: what about those pesky passengers who gorge themselves on multitudes of lobstertails, etc "because they paid for it"..does that drive the cost up? I never did understand why someone needed to eat that much anyway. LOL

 

It has nothing to do with whether the ports he listed are in the US or Uzbekistan. The point I was making is that ships are primarily provisioned at their homeport...the place where their cruises originate.

[Cuizer2]

I always watch to see where the eggs come from.

 

The back end of a chicken.

[smeyer418]

The back end of a chicken.

LOL and where does the chicken come from? the egg?

 

BTW this reminds of a joke my mother used to tell about a butcher and a long island duck but I don't think I can tell it here and not get a cc vacation.....

Edited November 28, 2009 by smeyer418

[euro cruiser]

Remember many cruisers have no health insurance. They won't be too upset that not all the employess or whatever of different companies have no health insurance.

You are likely correct, but what a sad comment about our society - if I don't have it, I don't care if you do or not; a scarcity philosophy.

 

Union members, who ought to see the contradiction, almost always have health insurance ... often with excellent coverage.

[njhorseman]

LOL and where does the chicken come from? the egg?

 

BTW this reminds of a joke my mother used to tell about a butcher and a long island duck but I don't think I can tell it here and not get a cc vacation.....

 

 

The threat of a CC vacation never stopped you in the past. :D

[smeyer418]

The threat of a CC vacation never stopped you in the past. :D

oh yes it has or I would have done a simple simon joke a long time ago...

 

I haven't been sent for a time out in a long time....while I have had postings removed I haven't even gotten a warning in a long time.

 

I know what the limits are...

Edited November 29, 2009 by smeyer418

[spongerob]

actually the CDC is normally pretty good about investigating before deciding. There is a problem with some overseas suppliers(mainly in China) but I am not sure what they do.

Fair enough, I may have used a bad example, thanks for the info.

 

Cuba is a whole 'nother topic with a tragic history and unfortunate consequences.

[carlmm]

.... So its either be prepared to off load all the food and bring US cert on or always have CDC certified foods. ....

 

.... The US Government has taken the liberty of claiming that certain US Laws apply to foreign flag ships that:

 

1. carry US Citizens

2. have offices in the USA

3. sell passage to people in the USA

4. call at US Ports.

5. sail anywhere on the "high seas"

 

Is this legal? Who knows. I'm not a lawyer. It sounds a bit dodgey to me.

....

 

Thank you for the answers! It certainly is not your fault if I they do not make me happy.

 

Thist fits with the experience on an European based ship, where several food items were not available any more once thes ship entered US waters and when passengers were told the ship's crew had to seal off certain storage areas to make sure they were not going to eat any of these until the ship left US waters.

[spongerob]

Either these employees don't have health insurance, or that cost isn't in this number.

I'm reasonably confident that basic, and advanced medical care is available to the crew on board ships. Sometimes I think we use the word "insurance", which to me covers unforeseen and unpredictable events, in place of "subsidized", which is more appropriate since it implies that someone else is picking up the tab - either voluntarily, or involuntarily through confiscation of wages.

 

The concept of a living wage is another one of those poorly defined and easily misinterpreted descriptions. To some it might mean basic living space, a loaf of bread, a jug of milk, and a jar of peanut butter. To others, a living wage implies being able to own a home, have a TV with cable, a computer with broadband internet coverage, and two cars. Until you can define what "living" is, you can't begin discuss the finer points.

[commodoredave]

The numbers you are looking for are very carefully guarded secrets in the cruise industry. The cruise lines are even reluctant to give them to each other.

 

The numbers do vary quite a bit as well, depending on ship, itinerary, and time of year.

 

Here is a general break-down, per passenger, per day:

 

Seabourn, Silver Sea - $24 - 26 per day

Oceania, Regent - $18 - 20 per day

Celebrity, Princess - $12 - 15 per day

RCCL, HAL - $12 - 13 per day

Carnival - $8 - 10 per day

NCL - $7.50 - 8.50 per day

 

Bear in mind that itinerary has a lot to do with these numbers:

 

Flying tons of food from USA to a ship in Europe is very expensive.

European Cruisers have paid substantially more for a cruise and have higher expectations. Their menus are usually pricier.

 

Caribbean Cruisers generally pay far less for a cruise. Their expectations are generally lower, so menus carry less expensive items. Loading food in the Caribbean is usually far less expensive as well.

 

Alaska Cruises are generally pricier, people eat more there and spend more time in the restaurants. Shipping and loading are more expensive in Alaska. Menus are generally higher cost on these itineraries.

 

Transatlantic cruisers eat far more than those on a "regular" cruise. This pushes costs about 50% higher.

 

Cruises with more sea days have far higher food costs than cruises that are port-intensive. It seems that when cruisers are not going ashore, they are eating, eating, eating.

 

Most passengers gorge themselves for the first 3 or 4 days of their cruise. When they finally realise that they are eating themselves sick, they back off a bit and eat more normally. As a result, food costs on a 3 or 4 day cruise are far higher than on longer cruises.

 

Repositioning cruises usually attract the bargain hunters. The mass market cruise lines just wants to break even on fuel costs to get the ship from the old itinerary to the new one. Most of the higher priced items disappear from these menus to cut costs.

 

By the way, there will be a percentage of readers on this board who will say that these numbers are impossible. Next time you want to complain about food quality on a ship, think about how they are able to sell you such a low priced vacation..................

 

Philip, this is exactly what I was looking for. Your numbers and explanations make complete sense. As I look over the various numbers, it lines up nicely with my opinion of the food that I have had on most of the lines mentioned. Thanks so much for providing this.

[uncleboo]

hi i am curious how much per person different cruise lines spend per day on food for passengers