BIG (to me) Choice Air issue

[Paulchili]

Bruce,

I am glad it all worked out in the end. There is nothing like the school of hard knocks - is there?

I am glad you shared your experience here as it might help others in the future.

[Jade13]

Final report:

 

First the good news - We have business class the whole way.

 

So all is well that ends well, but BOY have I learned some hard lessons.

 

Thanks to all,

 

Best,

Bruce

 

Great news Bruce!

 

Btw, you are not missing anything on SAS. In Norway they were not the friendliest group we have seen in the air.

[Jade13]

The bottom line is watch out for business class "Z" fares from ANY airline.

 

Best,

Bruce

 

Next time check ITA software dot com (I understand put together by a group from MIT). You can check all the flights, share codes and type of fare.

 

Btw, is your flight consolidator, or can you get FFmiles?

[alidor]

Z fares are often the low business class prices. Normally, the over the water portion is indeed booked in Z class but if there is a domestic portion, it can be part of the Z fare, but the domestic portion may not necessarily be booked in Z. Depending on the airline, it may stipulate that it be booked in A class (common), D, P or any other letter they see fit. It's still a Z fare but the domestic portion, PRICED as Z, may have to actually be booked in ANOTHER class of service.

 

This is very common be it transatlantic or transpacific.

[Paulchili]

Z fares are often the low business class prices. Normally, the over the water portion is indeed booked in Z class but if there is a domestic portion, it can be part of the Z fare, but the domestic portion may not necessarily be booked in Z. Depending on the airline, it may stipulate that it be booked in A class (common), D, P or any other letter they see fit. It's still a Z fare but the domestic portion, PRICED as Z, may have to actually be booked in ANOTHER class of service.

 

This is very common be it transatlantic or transpacific.

 

That is all good info but certainly not common knowledge. I still think that SOMEONE needs to inform the customer that domestic portion will not/may not be in business.

[alidor]

That domestic portion SHOULD be in business/first if it was a Z fare, but that particular leg needed to be booked in whatever class the carrier needed it to be booked in. For example (and this is fictional - I didn't bother to look anything up), there is a Z fare from SFO to Paris, via Chicago. It would be priced in Z class, assuming that's the lowest available for business, all the way, and the trans-atlantic portion would indeed be booked in Z. BUT, the domestic portion more than likely would not be but according to whatever the particular airline rules might be, may need to be book in A class. It's still a Z fare all the way from SFO to Paris but the class of service in the domestic sector is not in Z class.

 

There are other particulars as well that can affect this. My best advice to you is to get a good travel agent who has experience in dealing with air fares. You would be surprised how a knowledgable one can get good fares, better than what you think is best, found online.

[California Native]

Jade asked about FF miles...

I know this is a bit off point ...

but still I think it might be helpful

Just a little bit more about code shares such as SAS/UA

Before deciding what carrier you book and you are hoping to collect frequent flyer miles

The international/domestic codes shares have been a little sneaky

On some carriers if you book it as a through SAS ticket

the UA portion for example SFO-ORD, they will only award you 1/2 frequent flyer mileage..

However if you book it as a through UA ticket, even though say your flight from ORD-CPH is on SAS...you will FULL mileage award to your account

Just another PITA avenue you need to walk down as you are getting ready to book your flights.

and yes I have 1st hand experience with this. :mad:

K.

[Brucen]

That domestic portion SHOULD be in business/first if it was a Z fare, but that particular leg needed to be booked in whatever class the carrier needed it to be booked in. For example (and this is fictional - I didn't bother to look anything up), there is a Z fare from SFO to Paris, via Chicago. It would be priced in Z class, assuming that's the lowest available for business, all the way, and the trans-atlantic portion would indeed be booked in Z. BUT, the domestic portion more than likely would not be but according to whatever the particular airline rules might be, may need to be book in A class. It's still a Z fare all the way from SFO to Paris but the class of service in the domestic sector is not in Z class.

 

There are other particulars as well that can affect this. My best advice to you is to get a good travel agent who has experience in dealing with air fares. You would be surprised how a knowledgable one can get good fares, better than what you think is best, found online.

 

Alidor,

 

In a sense, I totally agree with you. In my case I think I did use a travel agent - Choice Air.

 

I have since spoken to several people about this whole issue (surprise) and several (2 of them "real" travel agents") were aware of the "Z" fare and have used it themselves. No one had ever heard of anyone using a Z fare being put in coach seats. Many knew it was possible, but no one thought it ever happened. I think I mentioned this elsewhere so forgive me if I am repeating, but my brother and his wife also booked business through Choice Air and his last return leg is in coach as well. Different flights and different routing than my flights but he is in coach going from DC to LA. He is trying to decide if it is worth the fight............ I have come to believe all of this is SAS. They can save money by not putting you in their code shares first class so they put you in coach. I really do not know any other explanation.

 

Jade and Where2next,

 

I am not sure about the miles. The system (United and Delta) both let me add my FF account #s. I have the accounts but really do not care much about them. They seem more and more like a scam to me. It is getting almost impossible to actually use the miles you accumulate in a way that makes it worthwhile. I will take the miles, but it is the last consideration. By the way, were you aware of the fact that a mile is not a mile? My mother traveled more when her husband was still alive and accumulated LOTS of miles. She continues to build up miles using her credit card. Last trip she took she was down to 250,000 miles and wanted to use some of them to upgrade a paid for coach ticket using her miles - this is 6 months in advance - and was told that seats had not yet been released for that flight. Constant checking back kept bring no results. She ultimately never received the upgrade. We were told later it was because they were credit card mile not flight miles. Can not swear that is a fact but I hav heard it now from multiple sources.

 

Best,

Bruce

[Jade13]

 

Jade and Where2next,

 

I am not sure about the miles. The system (United and Delta) both let me add my FF account #s. I have the accounts but really do not care much about them. They seem more and more like a scam to me. It is getting almost impossible to actually use the miles you accumulate in a way that makes it worthwhile. I will take the miles, but it is the last consideration. By the way, were you aware of the fact that a mile is not a mile? My mother traveled more when her husband was still alive and accumulated LOTS of miles. She continues to build up miles using her credit card. Last trip she took she was down to 250,000 miles and wanted to use some of them to upgrade a paid for coach ticket using her miles - this is 6 months in advance - and was told that seats had not yet been released for that flight. Constant checking back kept bring no results. She ultimately never received the upgrade. We were told later it was because they were credit card mile not flight miles. Can not swear that is a fact but I hav heard it now from multiple sources.

 

Best,

Bruce

 

I always use the miles direct from the airline. The CC I use deposits them into my account. My DH uses an Amex card where the points can be deposited into a FFmile account at a 1:1 ratio. So, 50,000 = 50,000 miles. What kind of card is she using?

[Paulchili]

I always use the miles direct from the airline. The CC I use deposits them into my account. My DH uses an Amex card where the points can be deposited into a FFmile account at a 1:1 ratio. So, 50,000 = 50,000 miles. What kind of card is she using?

 

OT

Jade - you should tell your DH about SPG Amex where every 20,000 points gets converted into 25,000 miles on most airlines (ie 1:1.25 conversion)

Bruce - I feel very different about miles; I collect them compulsively through ALL available means in order to travel in business on long haul flights. We plan in advance and have been very succesful in using them.

[alidor]

I think what happened is that Choice Air has Z fares into a particular gateway and that's it. Going to my original example of SFO to Paris via Chicago, they may have Z fares from Chicago to Paris but NOT from SFO to Chicago even though a through fare that would allow that may exist.

 

I use these all time, especially for trans-pacific, and that domestic portion has to be booked in the correct class of service to take advantage of the special THROUGH FARE.

 

There are lots of quirks here, and, again you need an experienced agent which didn't seem to happen.

 

THere can be little quirks, to be sure, but it's not exactly rocket science either. But then again, a lot of this is not going to come through consumer sites.

[alidor]

I went back and reread some of the posts.

 

There are so many stories like yours - you think you can do this yourself and end up getting screwed. You should have contacted a travel agent in the very beginning and all this aggravation you encountered probably wouldn't have happened.

 

In the end, you may have saved a fee or not, but you kind of got what you paid for. I RARELY use cruise line air, even though it can work out at times. Generally there are cheaper ways of getting air than through a cruise line. For those who always shun cruise fares, they ARE to be looked at for sure but there are often better and cheaper ways to go about it.

 

Enjoy your trip....

[Jade13]

OT

Jade - you should tell your DH about SPG Amex where every 20,000 points gets converted into 25,000 miles on most airlines (ie 1:1.25 conversion)

.

 

That is the one that he uses. He hasn't converted anything yet. Most bills are paid by me. I will use my BofA with US Airways until they cancel it. They sold most of them to Barclays (Mastercard) but (I was told) kept the ones with the higher credit lines.

[Jade13]

I went back and reread some of the posts.

 

There are so many stories like yours - you think you can do this yourself and end up getting screwed. You should have contacted a travel agent in the very beginning and all this aggravation you encountered probably wouldn't have happened.

 

In the end, you may have saved a fee or not, but you kind of got what you paid for. I RARELY use cruise line air, even though it can work out at times. Generally there are cheaper ways of getting air than through a cruise line. For those who always shun cruise fares, they ARE to be looked at for sure but there are often better and cheaper ways to go about it.

 

Enjoy your trip....

 

But, I don't necessarily think the getting screwed part has to do with using cruise line air. We did it once with HAL paying a deviation fee and gave them the exact flight/flight numbers that we wanted. We saved, if I recall, about 50-75pp but also used HAL's Cancel for Any Reason Platinum plan at the time which covered air booked through them at no additional fee (rate was based on the stateroom cost). It was very valuable because we could have decided to cancel that trip up until 24 hours prior to departure and gotten back 90% of our airline ticket on our credit card and didn't have to give any reason.

 

A lot of people on these boards use online TA's as well to save money. The lesson learned is that you need to check the flights & rules prior to booking. This particular issue seems to have been because of the SAS flight (in additional to the fact it was not spelled out on the Choice Air site).

[Brucen]

I am not an expert, everything I have written here is just one more opinion. You can give it the weight you think it deserves. That being said, it is my belief that FFmile seats are released by airlines by class of miles in your account. In the example of my mother that I used before, all of her miles were credit card miles. She never got an upgrade for her flight even 6 months out when the web site showed every business class seat available. If she was a business traveler that flew once a week, I believe she would have unquestionably received the upgrade. The airline in question was United. My feeling about this is reinforced by tales from others that say it is IMPOSSIBLE to find flights with their miles any more. I have 2 friends that travel at least 3 times a month and they ALWAYS get upgrades and seats for their families for vacations with no problems. I may be using the wrong terms, but I firmly believe that a mile in your account may have the same value as a mile in someone elses account but the store may not be open to you as often to spend your miles in. For me, I use a cash back credit card not a milage credit card. Instead of 40,000 miles I get $400.00. For me it makes more sense to take the $400.00 and buy the ticket I want than to hope that I can turn in miles and get specifically what I want through a particular program. That is just me....... I know many people are happy with their FF experience. I never have been.

 

One last point. Alidor and others have repeatedly made the point that any decent agent should have known what could have happened to me and taken the necessary steps to avoid it. Me response to that is this:

 

If the rules behind and airline ticket (for whatever reason) have to be so complicated that the average consumer can not have a reasonable expectation that they will receive what they reasonably believe they purchased, then the average consumer should not be allowed to make the transaction themselves. If the rules have to be that complicated with that much fine print, you should be forced to buy through a specially trained agent that understands all the rules, will take the heat and fix any problems. For that knowledge, we should all expect to pay for that premium. Make no mistake, I am not advocating doing away with web based ticketing, I am only suggesting that the rules should allow a normal consumer to get what they want with out the smoke and mirrors and fine print. If there are reasons those rules can not be simplified that I do not understand, then we should all HAVE to use an agent. From my perspective it should be one or the other, simple rules or you HAVE to go through an agent and that agent should have clear cut responsibilities. In my case, as I have said, I think I went through an agent. What I believe Alidor is suggesting is they were not a good agent. How am I to know if my agent is a good one or not - until I get screwed? Something in this system needs changing.

 

Again just my thoughts.

 

Best,

Bruce

[Paulchili]

Bruce,
I don't wish to turn this into a FF miles debate. Also, your experiences with FF miles are valid.
However, I wish to point out a couple of things about miles:
1 it is true that you have to plan early to use your miles - I book my trips 330 days out (many people book their cruises one year out as well)
2 you get $500 instead of 50,000 miles. That 50,000 miles buys you a business class seat to Europe - $500 could never do that, not even close. I would never use miles for domestic or economy class seats - you get a lot more bang for your buck with business seats overseas which are very expensive.
JMO.
Enjoy your cruise and your business class seats :)

[Brucen]

[quote name='Paulchili']Bruce,
I don't wish to turn this into a FF miles debate. Also, your experiences with FF miles are valid.
However, I wish to point out a couple of things about miles:
1 it is true that you have to plan early to use your miles - I book my trips 330 days out (many people book their cruises one year out as well)
2 you get $500 instead of 50,000 miles. That 50,000 miles buys you a business class seat to Europe - $500 could never do that, not even close. I would never use miles for domestic or economy class seats - you get a lot more bang for your buck with business seats overseas which are very expensive.
JMO.
Enjoy your cruise and your business class seats :)[/quote]


Paul, I agree with almost everything you said:)

I think the big difference might be in specific award programs. I know for United on their "standard" awards schedule it takes 210,000 miles for a business class seat, round trip from North America to Europe. They also have a "saver" plan with more black out dates and fewer available seats and even it requires 105,000 miles for the same ticket.

You sound like many people I run into that love their miles. I am glad it works well for you.

In general, I have enjoyed your posts. They have been reasonable and well thought out. I would love to run into you on a cruise some day and we can fight this out over a drink - on me:)

Best,
Bruce

[Paulchili]

Bruce - that would be fun. I would enjoy meeting you and talk to you about one of my "passions" - collecting miles the easy way. Perhaps one day...
FWIW, the best redemption program by far is AA, distant second is UA and Delta is a waste of your time :)
RT business ticket to Europe on AA is 100,000 and is very easy to get 330 days out; you can also get one way awards for half the miles, like for a TA cruise.
Happy cruising :)

[Jade13]

[quote name='Paulchili']
one of my "passions" - collecting miles the easy way. Perhaps one day...
FWIW, the best redemption program by far is AA, distant second is UA and Delta is a waste of your time :)

:)[/quote]

We have done very well with US Airways. We have gotten 6 round trips to Europe (4 to Rome and two to Tromso, Norway) in the past 3 years using 50,000 miles per ticket (mostly on SWISS or Lufthansa). All these flights in high season July would have cost $1,200-$1,600.00 per ticket. So, a lot more valuable than $500.00 per ticket. We have always gotten the exact dates and flights we have wanted. We also have a flight to the middle East next year (into Dubai and out of Athens) using 80,000 miles. We pay everything we can with one credit card including our real estate taxes.

Btw, the tickets to Tromso were booked 3 months out. One portion was on SAS and we are not impressed with them.

We used Continental miles to fly Delta to Buenos Aires last year. Although they have changed the rules we have a free card with Amtrak and at the time up to 50,000 miles per year could be transferred to Continental. I was able to transfer 50,00 in December and than 50,000 in January and get two flights to BA using 100,000 miles.

[Paulchili]

Jade,
that's a good track record - it shows you know what you are doing.
Were these business class? Those are a little harder to land.

[Jade13]

[quote name='Paulchili']Jade,
that's a good track record - it shows you know what you are doing.
Were these business class? Those are a little harder to land.[/quote]

50,000 free in coach. What business class tickets can you get for 50,000 miles?

We also flew to Canada for a weekend in 2006 using 25,000 miles each. At the time the coach flights would have cost us $700.00 plus so the numbers worked.

I do recall upgrading to business class going to Ecuador on AA in 2005 and recall the miles used each way were really low, maybe 10,000 or 15,000, and I had not seen that on another airline.

[sunny54]

[quote name='Brucen']Back in February I booked round trip business class air from Los Angeles to Copenhagen through the Azamara Choice Air system. I was thrilled that I could get the flights that worked for us all at a price that was fair.

I was thrilled until today when I went to confirm and saw that the last leg of my trip (Chicago to LA) has us assigned to COACH seats. After an hour and a quarter (much of it on hold) with the Choice Air department, the best they can tell me is that it is not an error! It is an SAS ticket and code shared with United to get to and from LAX to Chicago. Somewhere in the SAS fare rules it apparently says that coach seats can be assigned over the land portion of a trip! I will not argue that it says that somewhere......... But I will tell you that Choice Air NEVER made me aware of it. Had I known this I would not have booked it. All of my paper work, tickets, confirmations, etc. all clearly say "Business Class". Even the ticket for this last leg of the trip says "Business Class" yet the seats are in coach. Had I not gone to check seat assignments and recognized that row 18 is coach seats, I would not have known about this until I went to get on the plane in Chicago.

Aside from the apparent bait and switch here (whether by the airline or Choice Air is irrelevant) the fact is that I am 6' 5" tall. My knees do not fit in a coach seat. The idea of coming back from a trip where I have been pampered (I hope) and have to spend the final 4 1/2 hours of my trip contorted like a pretzel into a seat that I do not fit in gives me the shakes! This final 4 1/2 hours will be after a 9 hour flight and a 3 hour lay over for a change of planes.

The aggravation is exacerbated by the fact that there was not even a supervisor I could talk to! I spent an additional 10 minutes on hold only to be told that someone would call me back within 24 to 48 hours.

I have e-mailed and US mailed a letter to Larry Pimentel. One can only hope at this time.

Best,
Bruce
[/quote]
I am sickened by what has happened to you, but am so glad you have shared with us on cruise critic. In planning our next "big" trip, I was going to consider using choice air, but there's no way I would do it now. My DH is 6 3", with an artificial hip so he would barely be able to walk off a plane if he had to fly that far in coach. I just can't take the chance of booking (and PAYING) for biz and then not get it.
This is disgusting and I hope that someone from AZ, Choice Air or RCCL is reading! Best of luck...I hope something works out in your favor!