Garden Island Sunk

[diy dave]

Suppose by now you've all heard about the report by Mr Hawk on behalf of the federal gov re cruise ships and garden island. It's a no go. We predicted this outcome on this forum weeks ago, hahaha. We could have saved the taxpayer heaps of money.

[Sutho]

Yeah I have read it. Its a load of garbage about national security and the report is very heavily in teh favour of the defence bosses against change. Its not uncommen around the country where the ADF has to share airports with civillian aircraft. They winge and complain about their presence, winge and complain about a lack of facilities and funding, yet when the opportunity arises for them to share facilities and get funds their ego and resistance to change wins out over common sense.

 

For those who dont know I am ex Navy and know that base well. There is no ships docking there that are of national security concern. All our Navy ships have their images already plastered all over the internet and google and all the information freely available on the net pretty much sums up the state of the Navy. We have no nuclear ships or weapons so that rules out that risk. The Navy does not ammunition their ships at FBE or in Sydney harbour for that matter. Most ammunition for the east coast is taken on in PT. Wilson in Port Phillip Bay near Geelong.

 

The only realy security risk that exists close to FBE is the MHQ complex located behind HMAS Kuttabul which is very secluded and sheilded from public view and out of the way. No one would know it is there.

 

All FBE is a dock for ships and the only Defence facilities in the closest proximity to the docks are the FBE Medical Centre, The Gymnasium and sports courts, the canteen, the Chaplains and religious services and the Captain Cook Dry Dock yet all of these facilities are of a national security concern that cruise ships cannot dock there.

[diy dave]

Yeah I have read it. Its a load of garbage about national security and the report is very heavily in teh favour of the defence bosses against change. Its not uncommen around the country where the ADF has to share airports with civillian aircraft. They winge and complain about their presence, winge and complain about a lack of facilities and funding, yet when the opportunity arises for them to share facilities and get funds their ego and resistance to change wins out over common sense.

 

For those who dont know I am ex Navy and know that base well. There is no ships docking there that are of national security concern. All our Navy ships have their images already plastered all over the internet and google and all the information freely available on the net pretty much sums up the state of the Navy. We have no nuclear ships or weapons so that rules out that risk. The Navy does not ammunition their ships at FBE or in Sydney harbour for that matter. Most ammunition for the east coast is taken on in PT. Wilson in Port Phillip Bay near Geelong.

 

The only realy security risk that exists close to FBE is the MHQ complex located behind HMAS Kuttabul which is very secluded and sheilded from public view and out of the way. No one would know it is there.

 

All FBE is a dock for ships and the only Defence facilities in the closest proximity to the docks are the FBE Medical Centre, The Gymnasium and sports courts, the canteen, the Chaplains and religious services and the Captain Cook Dry Dock yet all of these facilities are of a national security concern that cruise ships cannot dock there.

 

Think you might have been out of the navy for quite a while. East coast ships are ammo'd at two fold bay, Eden. But I digress.

[spirit28]

I'm ex gray funnel line myself. There does not seem to be much lateral thinking or cooperation going on here with the different levels of Government. If Defence really wanted to share the base there are ways...

 

For example, back in the '70's & '80's HMAS Stalwart was almost a permanent fixture (nick name was Building 215) on the eastern side of the Island, bow facing Darling Point/Clark Island with the stern moored to the Island forming a "wharf" where up to four destroyer type ships could tie alongside for maintenance.

 

A relatively simple wharf structure could be easily built in the same area for use by Navy during the peak season, which would free up the Cowper Wharf area for use by Cruise ships.

 

I guess Elizabeth Bay & Darling Point residents would not be happy though..

 

Of course Navy could always programme their ships to be at sea - the cruise ship schedule is known well enough in advance for that to happen.

 

There was a related article today on news.com.au suggesting Athol Bay as an alternate site - link here

http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/visitng-cruise-ships-may-be-sent-to-the-zoo/story-e6frfq80-1226313406784

[CroNich]

What about that report saying ships will be allowed to berth there for a heavy fine?

Anyways I would LOVE to see Anne Sherry's reaction, she was so sure that it was going to come out as a positive result, however i am a bit surprised to, it seems a bit ridiculous to have one of Sydney's prime Harbour spots taken up by the RAN, which is not even needed in the harbour. I think however, like Gavin Smith (Head of Royal Caribbean Australia) said, its time to look at Port Botany and look at the possibilities, as there is far more potential down there.

[Sutho]

Think you might have been out of the navy for quite a while. East coast ships are ammo'd at two fold bay, Eden. But I digress.

 

Do you mean Jervis Bay?

 

There could be changes but from what I recall all missiles were loaded at Pt. Wilson.

[CroNich]

A BERTH for super cruise liners visiting Sydney will be built in Athol Bay, west of Bradley's Head and below Taronga Park Zoo, if the federal government adopts the recommendations of a review.

Thousands of people would have to be transferred to Circular Quay by watercraft for Customs processing or moved into the city using buses via the already clogged Military Road.

State government sources said Premier Barry O'Farrell would "strongly oppose'' the plan and continue to fight for access to Garden Island navy base.

Defence Minister Stephen Smith will today release the review by former top public servant Allan Hawke that also recommends Garden Island be used for cruise ships on an "ad hoc'' basis but said national security outweighed commercial considerations.

 

 

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/visitng-cruise-ships-may-be-sent-to-the-zoo/story-e6frfq80-1226313406784#ixzz1qUIgPTef

 

There kidding right??? How is Sydney meant to compete with other ports if plans like these are established, Sydney's continuous poor planning skills are shameful to say the least

[cjm66]

What about that report saying ships will be allowed to berth there for a heavy fine?

Anyways I would LOVE to see Anne Sherry's reaction, she was so sure that it was going to come out as a positive result, however i am a bit surprised (snip) .

 

Just caught her reaction on the Chanel 7 news. She was aghast that tourists would be subjected to the experience of being ferried ashore in lifeboats! Hmmm

 

Colleen

[diy dave]

Do you mean Jervis Bay?

 

There could be changes but from what I recall all missiles were loaded at Pt. Wilson.

 

No mate. The ammo wharf is next to the wood chip wharf. There's no storage there either, so I'll leave it to you to figure out how it gets from St Mary's ammo dump to Eden.

[CroNich]

You can read the whole review here:

 

http://www.defence.gov.au/oscdf/CruiseShipAccessReview/Review_Report.pdf

 

It talks about the five main options when it comes to the use of Garden Island for cruise ships, all of which cost a lot of money and time. However if the NSW government is behind the idea of having Cruise ships berth at Garden Island, its possible, just comes as a hefty price tag, which would eventually pay for itself the predictions are right about the cruise ship industry being worth $2 billion by 2020. And if its true about Barry O'Farrell really wanting ships to berth at the island, it can still be likely.

 

The idea bout having cruise ships berth at Athol Bouy is Ridicolous, so if Garden Island doesn't work, they need to come up with ideas about turning part of Port botany into a world class terminal. If not, the cruise industry will just be washed down the toilet

[The Fox]

No mate. The ammo wharf is next to the wood chip wharf. There's no storage there either, so I'll leave it to you to figure out how it gets from St Mary's ammo dump to Eden.

 

 

Hi

 

what I want answered is why old rusting decomissioned naval ship need to be alongside at garden Island taking up valuable space......surely they could be moved to black wattle bay or sunk for a marine reef.Then I supose you can,t blame the navy for the governments lack of foreseability.Maybe the great white elephant suposedly being built at white bay...could accommodate them.maybe the government shouls ask the developers...they seem to bow to their demands.

 

We are so cashed up in Sydney who needs income from cruise ships? I guess I can still go the heads and watch the mega cruise ship pass sydney on their way to Brisbane or Melbourne.....wake NSW.....get into the 21st century.

 

Col (hell Im wound up tonite lol)

[diy dave]

You can read the whole review here:

 

http://www.defence.gov.au/oscdf/CruiseShipAccessReview/Review_Report.pdf

 

It talks about the five main options when it comes to the use of Garden Island for cruise ships, all of which cost a lot of money and time. However if the NSW government is behind the idea of having Cruise ships berth at Garden Island, its possible, just comes as a hefty price tag, which would eventually pay for itself the predictions are right about the cruise ship industry being worth $2 billion by 2020. And if its true about Barry O'Farrell really wanting ships to berth at the island, it can still be likely.

 

The idea bout having cruise ships berth at Athol Bouy is Ridicolous, so if Garden Island doesn't work, they need to come up with ideas about turning part of Port botany into a world class terminal. If not, the cruise industry will just be washed down the toilet

 

Good post. Sorry if I got off topic. Where the future lies maybe, is in a change of fed gov. After Qld results any things possible

[diy dave]

Hi

 

what I want answered is why old rusting decomissioned naval ship need to be alongside at garden Island taking up valuable space......surely they could be moved to black wattle bay or sunk for a marine reef.Then I supose you can,t blame the navy for the governments lack of foreseability.Maybe the great white elephant suposedly being built at white bay...could accommodate them.maybe the government shouls ask the developers...they seem to bow to their demands.

 

We are so cashed up in Sydney who needs income from cruise ships? I guess I can still go the heads and watch the mega cruise ship pass sydney on their way to Brisbane or Melbourne.....wake NSW.....get into the 21st century.

 

Col (hell Im wound up tonite lol)

Theres a good point. Put the navy at White bay and the cruise ships at GI. Not so sllly, but not as plausible as Botany Bay.

[The_Big_M]

 

All FBE is a dock for ships and the only Defence facilities in the closest proximity to the docks are the FBE Medical Centre, The Gymnasium and sports courts, the canteen, the Chaplains and religious services and the Captain Cook Dry Dock yet all of these facilities are of a national security concern that cruise ships cannot dock there.

 

It didn't say that they couldn't dock there, just that Navy gets priority as it is their base - fair enough!

 

Ad hoc requests as currently happens are still recommended, but that there isn't spare capacity to e.g. hand over a couple of wharves for permanent access to cruise ships.

 

Of course, if someone is willing to stump up the funds then changes can be made, but the real issue is nobody wanted to do that, and just expected someone else to hand over their prime Sydney Harbour land.

[Sutho]

I understand the situation. I just know that they are making excuses not to have cruise ships dock there. I bet the RAAF loves it as they have to share their runways and airbases with civilian flights.

 

I forgot to say I wonder how much political bias is involved in this now with our pathetic labor govermnment as per usual not wanting to cooperate with liberals. I bet if it were labor still in power here in NSW and they suggested it that there would be no problems at all.

[The_Big_M]

The RAAF also don't share their bases. e.g Williamtown and Richmond are defence personnel only. Of course, there's less civilian demand to access those places, but still the issue is a cruise line one, not a defence one.

 

Looks like they got their expectations up improperly and are now making some noise, trying to make it someone else's problem.

 

As for political motives, if anything the Defence department is anti-labor so you'd expect them to go against the federal government wishes if there was bias. This means there's either no bias, or the case is so strong against it that it outweighs any bias.

[Sutho]

The RAAF also don't share their bases. e.g Williamtown and Richmond are defence personnel only. Of course, there's less civilian demand to access those places, but still the issue is a cruise line one, not a defence one.

 

Looks like they got their expectations up improperly and are now making some noise, trying to make it someone else's problem.

 

As for political motives, if anything the Defence department is anti-labor so you'd expect them to go against the federal government wishes if there was bias. This means there's either no bias, or the case is so strong against it that it outweighs any bias.

 

RAAF Williamtown is sharing its runway with Newcastle Airport.

 

I mean political motives like federal labor opposing state liberal will be stronger than any hatred the labor party has for the ADF.

[diy dave]

The RAAF also don't share their bases. e.g Williamtown and Richmond are defence personnel only. Of course, there's less civilian demand to access those places, but still the issue is a cruise line one, not a defence one.

 

Looks like they got their expectations up improperly and are now making some noise, trying to make it someone else's problem.

 

As for political motives, if anything the Defence department is anti-labor so you'd expect them to go against the federal government wishes if there was bias. This means there's either no bias, or the case is so strong against it that it outweighs any bias.

 

Don't forget RAAF is also sharing at Canberra, Catherine ,Townsville , in fact too many to mention

[CroNich]

Unless the government really wants to fund moving the RAN, Miss Sherry will need to get over her little fantasy of ships docking in Sydney Harbour if she doesn't want the ships going elsewhere

[The_Big_M]

Don't forget RAAF is also sharing at Canberra, Catherine ,Townsville , in fact too many to mention

 

Yes, but it's not a given they do/will share either. And remember here, they are sharing, but as the supply and demand permits.

[CroNich]

This is Interesting:

 

US cruise giant Carnival Corporation will rethink its Australian operations if it cannot get access to Sydney Harbour port facilities, its chief executive, Ann Sherry, warned yesterday.

 

The Florida-based line, billed as the world's biggest cruise company, had anticipated a report released yesterday would allow its mega-liners to dock at the navy headquarters at Sydney's Garden Island, given there are no other feasible docking facilities for ships of this size on the harbour.

 

But the review, by former Defence Department secretary Allan Hawke, found that balancing the needs of the navy with visiting cruise ships was "essentially incompatible".

 

"Defence's long-term national security task should not be surrendered to the seasonal commercial requirements of the cruise ship industry," Dr Hawke's report said.

 

Instead of Garden Island, the review suggested international cruise ships could dock at Port Botany, at the Overseas Passenger Terminal at Circular Quay, Athol Bay in the harbour or anchor at sea with passengers tendered to shore -- all scenarios that were immediately rejected by Carnival.

 

 

"The Overseas Passenger Terminal is already at capacity, and the need for a permanent shared solution at Garden Island is now critical," Ms Sherry said.

 

Passengers spent nearly $1 billion on cruises in 2010-11, and this is expected to grow to $2.6bn by 2020, according to a Deloitte Access Economics report commissioned by Carnival, operator of P&O, Cunard and Princess Cruises.

 

The local cruising industry has grown by an average 18 per cent a year over the past five years, outstripping the pace of global cruising, which has grown by 5 per cent a year over that time.

 

"Obviously the long-term consequence of not having arrangements for passengers to disembark or having alternatives that are very expensive is that we will have to rethink the number of ships that end up coming to Australia," Ms Sherry said in an interview with The Australian.

 

"We are not at that point yet. I am not giving up."

 

Ms Sherry is seeking an immediate meeting with Defence Minister Stephen Smith, who commissioned the report.

 

"It feels as if we have not moved forward in two years," she said, "even though we anticipated this review would give us much more clarity."

 

Although rival cruise operator Royal Caribbean said yesterday that Port Botany should be considered as a docking point, Ms Sherry said it was not an ideal passenger experience.

 

Royal Caribbean's Australian boss, Gavin Smith, said: "If such a berthing opportunity was available we would use it for all of our ships. This would free up over 50 days per cruise season at the Overseas Passenger Terminal."

But Ms Sherry said Port Botany was "an incredibly congested, hard-working industrial environment".

 

"We know from our own research that the great experience for cruise passengers is coming through the Sydney Heads," she said.

 

Carnival is also having difficulty in Brisbane, where the lack of port facilities means passengers paying thousands of dollars for leisure cruises are forced to disembark at the city's grain terminals.

 

Royal Caribbean seems much more relaxed about the issue than Ms Sherry

[Sutho]

Its understandable that Carnival wants action on the matter. I think that Botany Bay is the only real option here now. That anchorage is not a solution as ships will not be able to take on stores and provisions there.

[CroNich]

Its understandable that Carnival wants action on the matter. I think that Botany Bay is the only real option here now. That anchorage is not a solution as ships will not be able to take on stores and provisions there.

 

Agreed, I don't think Port Botany is all that bad, there are 100's of Urban Master Planning and architecture companies who would be happy to design a mix-used facility with a cruise ship terminal in an area of Port Botany which is not used by container ships (probably the south end).

The government should set up a competition, like many other countries have done in the past, then select the best and most realistic choice.

[CroNich]

I got an email from Gavin Smith, saying if Royal Caribbean were to be based in Botany, it would be in a temporary marquee or a low cost shed.

 

What i DO NOT understand is why are all countries around the world funding for large tourism facilities such as cruise terminals, yet Sydney has no interest in doing so even though the Cruise Industry is constantly pumping money into the NSW government

[Royalty X]

I got an email from Gavin Smith, saying if Royal Caribbean were to be based in Botany, it would be in a temporary marquee or a low cost shed.

 

What i DO NOT understand is why are all countries around the world funding for large tourism facilities such as cruise terminals, yet Sydney has no interest in doing so even though the Cruise Industry is constantly pumping money into the NSW government

Why do our governments do a lot of what they do? That's right! I don't think anyone can actually answer that! :p