Apology Ltr to Milestone cruisers

[btrbill]

You don't tell people to book extra cruises to be grandfathered into a tier and then take that away. That's called lying.

 

No, it is not. Misleading...maybe. But lying as defined below has to contain an INTENT... the people who told you to book extra cruises told you that based on information they had at the time... called specualtion.

 

lie

 

1    /laɪ/ [/url]Show Spelled [lahy] Show IPA noun, verb, lied, ly·ing.

noun 1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

[yesaccasey]

No, it is not. Misleading...maybe. But lying as defined below has to contain an INTENT... the people who told you to book extra cruises told you that based on information they had at the time... called specualtion.

 

lie

 

1    /laɪ/ [/url]Show Spelled [lahy] Show IPA noun, verb, lied, ly·ing.

noun 1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

 

It isn't speculation when you're told by the CCL blogger/spokesperson, when you're told by employees when you call... I am calling the company and the company is publishing information. They lied.

 

Time after time after time I was told platinum and milestone cruisers would be grandfathered in to the new tiers.... from JH, from crew, on the phone..

 

"I am hoping that you read this so I can tell you that when the new loyalty program does eventually come out that those who are close to one of the current two high levels of Platinum and Milestone will not be punished and will have their levels grandfathered in. I see from what you have told me that you will have nothing to be concerned about. Your loyalty is very important to us..."

[WiCruiseDreamer]

You don't tell people to book extra cruises to be grandfathered into a tier and then take that away. That's called lying.

 

That is called having an idea to help cruisers reach, what at the time was the best way, a tier. Did you receive a letter from Carnival advising you of this? Or did someone who truly believes in the product and company he works for want to help those get to that tier? As far as he knew, nothing was going to be taken away.

 

Funny, he takes the blame for being overly excited by the information he was given and sharing it with others. Nothing was said about the constant questions asking for more and more information. I saw it here on CC, people almost demanding to know what was happening, unhappy with the lack of answers and not being patient with the time it was taking to roll out the program.

 

 

[btrbill]

I do not believe that JH or Carnival "lied" to anyone, I believe they had every intention of creating the loyalty program as first spoken of, but as they started to review what these changes meant to not only the "bottom line" but to the service they offered, it required them to amend their original ideas. Call it bad business, call it lying, or call it the reality of our economy, it is a decision that had to be made, no matter how unpopular it is.

 

Excellent summary. And probably very close to what actually occured here.

[yesaccasey]

That is called having an idea to help cruisers reach, what at the time was the best way, a tier. Did you receive a letter from Carnival advising you of this? Or did someone who truly believes in the product and company he works for want to help those get to that tier? As far as he knew, nothing was going to be taken away.

 

Funny, he takes the blame for being overly excited by the information he was given and sharing it with others. Nothing was said about the constant questions asking for more and more information. I saw it here on CC, people almost demanding to know what was happening, unhappy with the lack of answers and not being patient with the time it was taking to roll out the program.

 

 

 

I was told this by every person I spoke to that represented CCL. I am not defending myself here. I know what was promised. I know what happened. And I know what needs to happen to fix it.

 

Go on 25 cruises, have that cruise line promise you something, and then see how you feel. Stop defending CCL unless you're going through the same thing.

[btrbill]

It isn't speculation when you're told by the CCL blogger/spokesperson, when you're told by employees when you call... I am calling the company and the company is publishing information. They lied.

 

I am sorry for your anger... I truly am. But if you cannot understand the differance between a lie, which has an intent to harm, and specualtion, which is based on giving information based on incomplete evidence, such as a program that is not fully vetted nor official, than you begin to lose your audience. Be angry! But understand where your anger should be directed.

 

Web definitions:guess: a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence.

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

[yesaccasey]

I am sorry for your anger... I truly am. But if you cannot understand the differance between a lie, which has an intent to harm, and specualtion, which is based on giving information based on incomplete evidence, such as a program that is not fully vetted nor official, than you begin to lose your audience. Be angry! But understand where your anger should be directed.

 

Web definitions:guess: a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence.

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

 

If multiple representatives from a company disseminate information then you take that as truth. Why would a company give out information that was speculative in nature to a customer that is going to base his/her decisions on that information? When you call a company up and ask for information do you ask them if it is the truth before you hang up? No, it is understood that what they tell you is accurate. I was told to book extra cruises so I would be grandfathered in to Diamond.

 

CCL lied.

[btrbill]

If multiple representatives from a company disseminate information then you take that as truth.

 

I agree completely. Based upon the information they had available to them at the time, I believe they were telling you what they thought was the truth. Truth based on specualtion.

 

Why would a company give out information that was speculative in nature to a customer that is going to base his/her decisions on that information?

 

To the best of thier knowledge, they were trying to help you get to a point that would benefit you! I probably would have done the same thing!

 

When you call a company up and ask for information do you ask them if it is the truth before you hang up? No, it is understood that what they tell you is accurate. I was told to book extra cruises so I would be grandfathered in to Diamond.

 

Yes you were. And you are angry! We all get that!! I am in your corner and hope you can get it changed! But it does not change the fact that everyone that provided you information did so thinking it was in your best interest, with no harm intended, based on specualtion!

 

CCL lied.

 

Oh boy... Look at the definition, and explain to be where the intent to harm you was. If you can do that, I will agree that they lied. Good Luck.

[idiebabe]

No, it is not. Misleading...maybe. But lying as defined below has to contain an INTENT... the people who told you to book extra cruises told you that based on information they had at the time... called specualtion.

 

lie

 

1    /laɪ/ [/url]Show Spelled [lahy] Show IPA noun, verb, lied, ly·ing.

noun 1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

 

I am not in the same situation as Yesacasey to where I was told to book cruises to achieve the Milestone LEVEL in order to be Grandfathered in and then not have it happen. I was told I would be Grandfathered into this level as well and I was not because of falling short of days.

 

JH is a SPOKESPERSON for Carnival as well as the others that told Yesacasey to book those cruises and told many of us that we would be Grandfathered in. I do not blame John since he was duped by his bosses (which I'm sure he feels bad about) the same way we were!

 

If people feel that Carnival (Spokepersons) lied to them, that is how they feel and that is what matters. Splitting hairs on technical verbage doesn't apply...it is how what happened makes one feel!!!

 

Regarding decisions to change things based on the "bottom line"....have you read the comparison in Perks??? They don't amount to much of anything to affect a "bottom line"!!!

 

Reality is they don't care about the Milestoners. They are more interested in the 20 - 30 something age group and Families. However, the 20 - 30 somethings or Families aren't cruising several times a year (in some Milestoners cases....6 or 7 times a year) and they certainly are not booking the 12 Nite and 15 Nite cruises. They aren't booking the Suites as well! The Milestoners are the ones taking the longer cruises, cruising multiple times a year and also booking the higher priced rooms. So, do you still want to talk about affecting a "bottom line" when many go elsewhere because they FEEL they were lied to!

[WiCruiseDreamer]

I was told this by every person I spoke to that represented CCL. I am not defending myself here. I know what was promised. I know what happened. And I know what needs to happen to fix it.

 

Go on 25 cruises, have that cruise line promise you something, and then see how you feel. Stop defending CCL unless you're going through the same thing.

 

It is not that I am defending CCL so much as I am stating that the premise that JH, or any other representative that spoke with you that was not intimately involved with the revamping of the loyalty program, lied to you is not correct.

 

I have had many representatives of multiple businesses "promise" me something and have not seen these "promises" come to be, so, yes, I can relate. I have also learned that promises are a dime a dozen.

[Cjlovestocruise]

Milestone was never a level. Even the information on the old program listed Platinum – Milestone cruiser and listed the obc you would receive on your milestone cruise in addition to the platinum benefits.

I am sorry if you feel you were lied to – I don’t believe it was intentional but really think about it why do you think someone with only 25 cruises should be in the same level as someone with 40, 50, 60 cruises.

[Shipbound]

It is possible to be milestone but not have 200 plus sea days to be diamond which is the problem there are too many exceptions. If you dont have 200 plus sea days you are not diamond period, just as if you do not have 75 sea days you should not be platinum there should be no exceptions. no grandfathering into a different level, ect. CCL or any other cruise line does not have to have perks for past guests, if they wanted they could do away with the whole program period.

 

Gary

[idiebabe]

Milestone was never a level. Even the information on the old program listed Platinum – Milestone cruiser and listed the obc you would receive on your milestone cruise in addition to the platinum benefits.

I am sorry if you feel you were lied to – I don’t believe it was intentional but really think about it why do you think someone with only 25 cruises should be in the same level as someone with 40, 50, 60 cruises.

 

Why do you think someone with only 30 Sail Days (10 Cruises make Platinum) should be on the same level as someone with 199 Sail Days?

[WiCruiseDreamer]

I am not in the same situation as Yesacasey to where I was told to book cruises to achieve the Milestone LEVEL in order to be Grandfathered in and then not have it happen. I was told I would be Grandfathered into this level as well and I was not because of falling short of days.

 

JH is a SPOKESPERSON for Carnival as well as the others that told Yesacasey to book those cruises and told many of us that we would be Grandfathered in. I do not blame John since he was duped by his bosses (which I'm sure he feels bad about) the same way we were!

 

If people feel that Carnival (Spokepersons) lied to them, that is how they feel and that is what matters. Splitting hairs on technical verbage doesn't apply...it is how what happened makes one feel!!!

 

Regarding decisions to change things based on the "bottom line"....have you read the comparison in Perks??? They don't amount to much of anything to affect a "bottom line"!!!

 

Reality is they don't care about the Milestoners. They are more interested in the 20 - 30 something age group and Families. However, the 20 - 30 somethings or Families aren't cruising several times a year (in some Milestoners cases....6 or 7 times a year) and they certainly are not booking the 12 Nite and 15 Nite cruises. They aren't booking the Suites as well! The Milestoners are the ones taking the longer cruises, cruising multiple times a year and also booking the higher priced rooms. So, do you still want to talk about affecting a "bottom line" when many go elsewhere because they FEEL they were lied to!

 

One of the changes that was spoken of repeatedly was the limiting of the free laundry.

 

Now this is by no means completely accurate, but rather just an example of what this unlimited service could mean.

 

With an increase in the number of Plat reward members, there would be an increase in the possible number of members using this service, not to mention those that would take advantage of it. Carnival would have seen an increase in costs, not to mention the amount of labor that would be required to handle this increase. Now not only is there more cost involved, but time needed to handle this increase in laundry. However, since this is a finite cruise, extra time will not be available to handle the increase, so then more staff would need to be acquired.

 

More staff for laundry, means more cabins are needed, more food is required for feeding of the increase in staff. More food needing to be made as well as more cabins needing to be cleaned will require even more staff. So, there is an increase in labor and product costs. Not to mention, the possible need to claim revenue cabins for labor cabins.

 

[btrbill]

JH is a SPOKESPERSON for Carnival as well as the others that told Yesacasey to book those cruises and told many of us that we would be Grandfathered in. I do not blame John since he was duped by his bosses (which I'm sure he feels bad about) the same way we were!

 

Excellent point! As I elluded to earlier, the "Beards" are where the anger should be directed. Call the lady SATEX gave the info on! THEY ARE TO BLAME! Not the workers...

 

 

If people feel that Carnival (Spokepersons) lied to them, that is how they feel and that is what matters. Splitting hairs on technical verbage doesn't apply...it is how what happened makes one feel!!!

 

I have acknowledged how yesacasey, and others, feel. I understand thier anger and hope they get it resolved. But there is a huge differance, even a legal one, between saying someone was mislead and lied to.

 

Regarding decisions to change things based on the "bottom line"....have you read the comparison in Perks??? They don't amount to much of anything to affect a "bottom line"!!!

 

I have, and I agree. Not much to be excited about for sure.

 

Reality is they don't care about the Milestoners. They are more interested in the 20 - 30 something age group and Families. However, the 20 - 30 somethings or Families aren't cruising several times a year (in some Milestoners cases....6 or 7 times a year) and they certainly are not booking the 12 Nite and 15 Nite cruises. They aren't booking the Suites as well! The Milestoners are the ones taking the longer cruises, cruising multiple times a year and also booking the higher priced rooms. So, do you still want to talk about affecting a "bottom line" when many go elsewhere because they FEEL they were lied to!

 

Money talks and Bull--it walks. If the Milestone folks really leave, which I am sure a lot will, maybe the "Beards" will take notice. Maybe they will see the error of thier ways and really put out a meaningful program. But I am guessing they will not. IMHO, they will look at the new cruisers just as you describe... and they will hope a portion of those new cruisers will like it so much they continue to book more and more cruises, thereby replacing the current milestoners tha walked. That will most likely happen. But here is the thing... with the NEW Milestone cruisers, they do not have to provide what they once did as they progress to that level, thus saving them money along the way.

 

Look at me... I am at a point in my life (finally) were I can begin to cruise 3 or 4 times a year. While I work my way up to Milestone and Diamond, CCL will eventually spend less on me than you or other Milestoners. Not as much laundry, not as much strawberries, no free entries, etc... So it seems CCL is placing a bet that while you and others may walk, others will not, and many others will be there to fill your shoes.

 

So FEEL you were lied to all you want. In fact, you were not. Mislead, absolutely!!!

[luckycruzer]

He's lucky to still have his job.

 

for Carnival to "do him in"..as he is thought of in some small circles as the "GOD" of Carnival..when in fact he is....JUST...an employee. Just more mouthy.

[waiting4acruise]

Thanks for posting this and proving my point. His last installment, quoted below, kinda sums it up. See, he was NOT speaking from facts, and admits it. Brow-beat him all you want... he probably deserves it. But he cannot control what the "beards" at CCL do. He gets a paycheck, not signs them.

 

5/14/12 - I have made quite a few mistakes since I started writing blogs and there have been times when in retrospect I probably should not have written about certain subjects. Top of that list is the new loyalty program which I first wrote about some two years ago or thereabouts. Back then it looked like we were just a few weeks away from launching but suddenly we were not and I was told that the project was far grander than first planned and it was going to be not weeks but months, lots of months before we were ready to announce what we were doing. It was my fault, 100% my fault. I was so anxious to tell you all that this exciting program was on the way that I jumped the gun so to speak and here we are still waiting.

Since then I have been ridiculed somewhat for this by posters here, on Facebook and on Cruise Critic and rightly so. I can understand why and as I said, it’s my fault. If I didn’t have this social media site and my Facebook page then nobody would have been any the wiser and while I think for the most part that my pages do help get the Carnival messages out and while they do keep you informed, there are times when silence would have been as golden. So please let me apologise to you all for my glaring mistake. In the coming weeks we will have the grand launch of a program that will keep our loyal guests returning to Carnival for another brilliantly fun and affordable cruise vacation.

This would be about the time the loyalty program was given out for training. I think John realized he wrote a few whoppers about the new loyalty program.

[djacobson]

Milestone was never a level. Even the information on the old program listed Platinum – Milestone cruiser and listed the obc you would receive on your milestone cruise in addition to the platinum benefits.

I am sorry if you feel you were lied to – I don’t believe it was intentional but really think about it why do you think someone with only 25 cruises should be in the same level as someone with 40, 50, 60 cruises.

 

Because the number of cruisers with 25 plus cruises is 1% ( rounding up, around 3,600) of all loyal CCL cruisers. Why further divide a group that comprises 1% of the past guests with CCL?

 

Milestone OBC is not necessarily applied on your 25th cruise. You are sent a certificate to use for a future booking and have a time frame to activate the OBC.

[tim5811]

If Carnival is going to bend rules for people to catch up to Plat......then it is a reasonable gripe for 25 cruises or more to be given diamond status. It makes perfect sense after all the recent hostility, for Carnival just to do the right thing and take care of their most loyal guests. I have 29 cruises for a total of 180 days. How is the world do those stats have to be watered down now? I booked my next cruise knowing I had unlimited free laundry and reservation dinner times set in stone. Now it's ok on their end to change things? It's not right. And like I said earlier....why mess with your most loyal guests? Not happy.

[Cruizinman]

Milestone ,you were lied to that much is obvious. You can debate this topic with posters that may actually work for Carnival until the cows come home. Here's a tip for you , if your answering questions on a message board ,your backing up. You really only have a few options in this matter, accept what Carnival is offering or support each other and SUE Carnival.

[Sargent_Schultz]

There was no lying. Worst case is is puffery which is not only legal, but encouraged in cruising, pizza, and many other forms of commerce.

 

Platinum was an existing level and the qualifications are allowed to coexist for a limited time. Diamond never was a level and is new. There is nothing to grandfather. There is no lie.

[WiCruiseDreamer]

Milestone ,you were lied to that much is obvious. You can debate this topic with posters that may actually work for Carnival until the cows come home. Here's a tip for you , if your answering questions on a message board ,your backing up. You really only have a few options in this matter, accept what Carnival is offering or support each other and SUE Carnival.

 

The other obvious option, is to try another line. As for suing Carnival, good luck.

[btrbill]

Milestone ,you were lied to that much is obvious. You can debate this topic with posters that may actually work for Carnival until the cows come home. Here's a tip for you , if your answering questions on a message board ,your backing up. You really only have a few options in this matter, accept what Carnival is offering or support each other and SUE Carnival.

 

Which posters here do you think work for Carnival? To be honest, I wish I DID as I could get free cruises! Hmm, maybe a plan for a post-retirement job... ;)

[e150club]

for Carnival to "do him in"..as he is thought of in some small circles as the "GOD" of Carnival..when in fact he is....JUST...an employee. Just more mouthy.

I don't follow his blog, but my wife does. I have told her he is going to get in trouble one of these day's.

[musicgal]

Umn... I just completed my 3rd Carnival cruise. I spend approximately $3000 plus each time I venture out on a ship- more if you count airfare, hotels and extras (that's not counting other people I pay for). So if I used that average to get to 25 cruises that would mean I spent over $75,000. Now... if I were promised something when I got to that level of spending and had it um... removed- yes, I'd be a little pissed off too. I mean, what is it that you (Carnival) think I cannot afford? What is it that you think I need to pay for now? Do you think you are the only game in town? Not yet anyway.

 

It's not so much the removal of the small gesture... it's the way it's been done.

 

Ask any woman about how that kind of thing works in courtship. A woman grows horns over broken promises. The very smallest of things. Bad, bad PR for Canival.