What kind of impact do could this have??

[Splatitudes]

Supreme Court Rules Cruise Ships Must Provide Disabled Access

 

E-mail this story to a friend

 

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court ruled Monday that foreign cruise lines sailing in U.S. waters must provide better access for passengers in wheelchairs, expanding the scope of a landmark federal disabilities law.

 

The narrow 5-4 decision is a victory for disabled rights advocates, who said inadequate ship facilities inhibited their right to "participate fully in society."

 

Congress intended the 1990 law to apply to cruise lines, justices said.

 

"The statute is applicable to foreign ships in the United States waters to the same extent that it is applicable to American ships in those waters," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote for the majority. He was joined by Justices John Paul Stevens, David H. Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen G. Breyer.

 

Still, the ruling is unclear how much the $2.5 billion foreign cruise industry, two-thirds of whose passengers are Americans, will actually have to reconfigure pools, restaurants and emergency equipment for wheelchair accessibility, an upgrade that could cost the industry millions.

 

That's because Kennedy also writes that cruise lines need not comply with the Americans With Disabilities Act to the extent it creates too much international discord or disruption of internal affairs, under a provision of the statute that calls only for "readily achievable" modifications.

 

Three disabled passengers, who sailed on a Norwegian Cruise Line ship from Houston in 1998 and 1999, say they paid premiums for accessible cabins and the assistance of crew, but the ship's restaurants, elevators and other facilities violated the ADA.

 

Miami-based Norwegian countered that only an explicit statement of Congress can justify imposing the U.S. law on a ship that sails under a foreign flag even if it is docked at a U.S. port. The federal law is silent on whether foreign cruise lines are covered by the ADA.

[yogimax]

It's an interesting legal question. I can only speak from personal experience, having taken an 87 year old friend on cruises with both Carnival and Royal Caribbean. The most difficulty we had was with the on and off ramps to the ship, some of which were at steep angles. In most cases, crew members did the actual pushing of the wheelchair. My guess is that lines like CCL and RCL will be impacted in a minor way while some of the smaller cruise lines (with smaller ships) will be impacted more dramatically

[gtalum]

Just wait until the cruise industry decides it's too much of a hassle to depart from US ports of call.

[corina27]

Just wait until the cruise industry decides it's too much of a hassle to depart from US ports of call.

EEEEEkkk! Dont say such a thing!:eek:

[Girlsnightout]

are pretty well designed for handicapped access, but I don't know about the pools..Sounds like they will have to install a device to lower wheelchair bound cruisers into the pool. They have these in most schools (in ours they do), so that everyone can go swimming.

[blackwing]

Except for the tender boat, I thought the Conquest was well designed for a wheelchair bound guest. Sure it might be inconvenient to have to go "the long way" to get to an elevator to access decks, but I don't think there were any parts of the ship that were not accessible by wheelchair. Except the topless deck and the part where you can go down the waterslide. As far as the pool, is there much demand by a wheelchair bound guest to get into that tiny little pool?

[corina27]

Except for the tender boat, I thought the Conquest was well designed for a wheelchair bound guest. Sure it might be inconvenient to have to go "the long way" to get to an elevator to access decks, but I don't think there were any parts of the ship that were not accessible by wheelchair. Except the topless deck and the part where you can go down the waterslide. As far as the pool, is there much demand by a wheelchair bound guest to get into that tiny little pool?

Oh now we know why the waterslides were closed!:D :)

[Girlsnightout]

As far as the pool, is there much demand by a wheelchair bound guest to get into that tiny little pool?

 

It only takes one. If someone wants access and can't get it, you can bet there will be a big stink made....I can see their point. Making everything handicapped access takes a lot of effort and money, but it has to be done. If even one child in a school is in a wheelchair, there has to be physical alterations made so that EVERYTHING is accessable.

[dsclark]

It sounds like the cruise lines have some discretion in determining what is adequate.

It is important to remember that we are talking about ships in the ocean, which is totally different from a land based building. For example, I could see a disabled

attorney suing CCL because he was unable to to wheel his chair into a tender. I have seen CCL security carry passengers into tenders and there's bound to be one who is indignet about recieving this courtesy. WHat should they do? Drop the port, or make major mods and jack up the price of a cruise by $200 a person to cover it?

As for the slides and pools, the solutions are clear- either spend big $ to equip every ship with a special elevator for the slide and special access to the pool, or else CLOSE THEM ALL DOWN!

Don't think it'll happen? Ever notice how the only hotel pools with deep ends are old hotels? Some of the newer hotels have pools only 3' deep! Just watch the lawsuits roll in...

[jimbug]

On both Princess ships we sailed, they did have handicap lifts in at least one of the pools onboard. I honestly never saw a soul using it, but it's nice to know it's there in case someone does.

[big_duck]

"The statute is applicable to foreign ships in the United States waters to the same extent that it is applicable to American ships in those waters," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote for the majority. He was joined by Justices John Paul Stevens, David H. Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen G. Breyer.

 

Three disabled passengers, who sailed on a Norwegian Cruise Line ship from Houston in 1998 and 1999, say they paid premiums for accessible cabins

 

Since tendering occurs in foreign ports in foreign waters with a 3rd party contractor I doubt that it could be made to apply. Anything else for accessability should be done.

 

Interesting the Plantiff stated they paid a "premium" for thier cabins. Does this mean Norwegian is charging extra for an accessible cabin with a class or does it mean there are no accessible cabins in the least expensive class?

[kjunea]

Since tendering occurs in foreign ports in foreign waters with a 3rd party contractor I doubt that it could be made to apply. Anything else for accessability should be done.

 

Interesting the Plantiff stated they paid a "premium" for thier cabins. Does this mean Norwegian is charging extra for an accessible cabin with a class or does it mean there are no accessible cabins in the least expensive class?

 

On some ships, the only handicapped accessible rooms are the more expensive ones, because they are already larger, with larger bathrooms, etc. So you usually have to pay a premium for those. It is also hard to get a handicapped room sometimes, unless you book way in advance. I have been in and out of a wheelchair for 10 years now and I know that there were times I wanted to cruise and couldn't because they didn't have the rooms available on some lines.

 

June

[Splatitudes]

Yeah, I think it just means there are no handicapped cabins in the lowest categories.

[BlueHerons]

From a former hotelier's standpoint, I can tell you it doesn't mean crap.

 

 

Since the cruise lines do not need to be ADA complient, and probably never will be made to be ADA complient, all they need to do is make a few noises to satisfy a few lobbying groups and that is it.

 

Just like airplanes are not ADA complient, it would put the cruise lines out of business having to pay to refit all of their ships.

[BlueHerons]

It only takes one. If someone wants access and can't get it, you can bet there will be a big stink made....I can see their point. Making everything handicapped access takes a lot of effort and money, but it has to be done. If even one child in a school is in a wheelchair, there has to be physical alterations made so that EVERYTHING is accessable.

 

Girlsnightout, while your point is very valid, the cruise lines sail under foreign flags and for the most part are subject to that country's laws and regulations. I'm sure people have tried to sue the cruise lines before to get changes made but it is a very difficult thing to do if not impossible.

 

The quickest route to change would be to hit them in the pocketbook. A mass boycott (I am NOT calling for one) of a particular cruise line by the cruising public until ships are brought up to code would work fast.

 

Keeping in mind that the cruising population is starting to age, it wouldn't be a bad idea. However, in the long run, we as cruisers will pay the price of the refits.

[IBoz]

If you think back to when the ADA first came in, there was a lot of legal maneuvering until the dust settled. In the end, the ADA does not require unreasonably expensive modifications to be made to EXISTING facilities. New facilities must be compliant, as must places like government buildings, schools, etc. Certain exemptions can be granted for listed, historical buildings.

 

I think the cruise lines could get away with making a few reasonable changes to existing ships such as lowering the price on handicapped cabins for handicapped persons, better access during embarkation and debarkation, widening some doorways, making the self-serve cafeterias more accessible, adding lifts near certain pools, etc.

 

I can see the point of the plaintiffs in this case - they had to pay extra to take the cruise, and then could not use the facilities that they paid for.

 

During refit of existing vessels, larger changes can be made, and newer ships can be constructed to be more ADA compliant.

 

Also, I don't think US courts would have any jurisdiction over foreign-flagged vessels in foreign ports.

 

 

Just my opinion - I'm not a lawyer, just related to too many of them :)

[BlueHerons]

If you think back to when the ADA first came in, there was a lot of legal maneuvering until the dust settled. In the end, the ADA does not require unreasonably expensive modifications to be made to EXISTING facilities. New facilities must be compliant, as must places like government buildings, schools, etc. Certain exemptions can be granted for listed, historical buildings.

 

Just my opinion - I'm not a lawyer, just related to too many of them :)

 

IBoz, even new cruise ships aren't required to be ADA complient.

[IBoz]

IBoz, even new cruise ships aren't required to be ADA complient.

 

True, but I didn't say they could be made to be ADA compliant - just MORE compliant than current ships. For example, one of the cases included a section about the mandatory pre-sail safety meeting. The plaintiff stated that there was no handicapped-accessible meeting place. This can be corrected by providing a place that is handicapped-accessible.

 

I was reading a more detailed description of the ruling this morning. The ruling made the point that existing ships must still meet international safety standards, so making any changes to existing ships that would impact the structure (such as widening doorways) are not required. Even on new ships, structural changes that might make a ship fail to meet international safety standards would not be required. Another example - the watertight doors on a ship have a "lip" at the bottom. While that certainly makes it hard for a wheelchair to pass, it is necessary to ensure that the door is actually watertight.

 

The court also held that the only way to require full compliance with the ADA would be for Congress to make it so.

 

There was also a point about the surcharges for disabled passengers.

[BigDoug]

This decision will probably spur a ton of lawsuits. If what is happening in California is any indication, there will be many claims of emotional damage by disabled people unable to book fully compliant handicapped cabins. There is a similar discussion on the Princess board: http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=187348

Here is an example of what is happening in CA: http://www.hotel-online.com/News/PR2004_3rd/Sept04_DisabilityGroups.html

http://www.calchamber.com/biz%20issues/2005/summaries/05-ADALawsuitAbuse.pdf

 

From the San Diego Union Tribune: "Three states, California, Hawaii and Florida, also allow an injured party to recover extra monetary sums, including attorneys' fees, punitive and other damages. Some argue that the fear of paying thousands of dollars for an ADA violation gives property owners an economic incentive to comply with special access laws. "http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050408/news_lz1e8poochlgn.html

 

What states do most of the cruises in the US depart from?