Lifeboats - why orange?

[BlueRiband]

In response to comments posted above by glojo and seasidegirl, let's remember that while QM2 is not the only ship crossing the Atlantic she is the only ship regularly carrying thousands of souls over that route in all kinds of weather.

 

I've been fortunate to hear Stephen Payne's Genesis of a Queen talk twice, and the Webb Institute posted his more technical version on line. The fifty worst Atlantic storms all had some influence into some aspect of the vessel's design. Serious damage (with fatalities) to the aluminum superstructure of the Michelangelo from a rouge wave is just on reason why she was built with a strong wall of defense. Carnival's board had to be convinced that a serious incident would forever compromise the reliability and safety of that ship in the eyes of the public. How safe would one feel on board QM2 if two of her lifeboats were to be swept away? The underlying aim that comes through was to first and foremost build a strong and safe ship.

 

No ship is unsinkable - if enough of the ship's envelope is compromised it is simple physics that it will sink. But should the unthinkable happen while Stephen Payne was on board he would be the second to last person off the ship.

[Jim Avery]

I want to know where those 5,000 deck chairs are located? Do they all have towels and books on them?:eek::D

[pepperrn]

In response to comments posted above by glojo and seasidegirl, let's remember that while QM2 is not the only ship crossing the Atlantic she is the only ship regularly carrying thousands of souls over that route in all kinds of weather. I've been fortunate to hear Stephen Payne's Genesis of a Queen talk twice, and the Webb Institute posted his more technical version on line. The fifty worst Atlantic storms all had some influence into some aspect of the vessel's design. Serious damage (with fatalities) to the aluminum superstructure of the Michelangelo from a rouge wave is just on reason why she was built with a strong wall of defense. Carnival's board had to be convinced that a serious incident would forever compromise the reliability and safety of that ship in the eyes of the public. How safe would one feel on board QM2 if two of her lifeboats were to be swept away? The underlying aim that comes through was to first and foremost build a strong and safe ship. No ship is unsinkable - if enough of the ship's envelope is compromised it is simple physics that it will sink. But should the unthinkable happen while Stephen Payne was on board he would be the second to last person off the ship.

Thank you BlueRiband for this, very well said. Excellent points.

As for Dr. Stephen Payne, due to modern safety regulations, and his (and his team) fantastic design skills, we all have a better chance of avoiding, and if necessary, surviving the unthinkable, unlike one of his predecessors, Thomas Andrews (M.D. and head of ship design at Harland and Wolff, incl. Titanic, where he lost his life) .

All best wishes,

[Pushka]

I saw a fascinating documentary on the history of the QM2. I didn't know that 16 workers were killed in one accident during the late construction due to failure of the gangway.

 

Now, I'm not going to remember all the correct terms so no nit picky about that! Although I think the rouge wave was harking back to Mr Toad and his munchkins. :D

 

Talked about why the bow is shaped as it is, and how it was tested in a ship testing facility in Amsterdam? Because of the damage suffered by Michelangelo (the damage they showed was immense.) it has additional structures to force the water to the sides. And how the metal plate covering the jet propulsion failed in a test run about 2 months before the final speed test and closed while the propellers were operating and the plate fell into the sea.

 

It was originally intended for it to be able to go through the Panama Canal but the requirement of Ariston to have so many balcony cabins made that an impossibility.

 

Why the bow extender (?) didn't allow the speeds required during the original speed tests and had to be extended further.

 

But it was delivered on schedule on the day it was required.

 

Payne featured prominently throughout. Would be fascinating to hear him speak onboard.

[pmb1]

... Payne featured prominently throughout. Would be fascinating to hear him speak onboard.

It is, and this is very much what he said during his 200th Crossing lecture on July 10, 2013.

[keithm]

I do think it is vital that the lifeboats tone in with the colour of parts of the rest of the vessel.

All this rubbish about safety of lives at sea.

Stuff and nonsense.

Or the best colour to be seen by rescue aircraft following a disaster.

What rot ;) .

 

I know that if I was ever unfortunate to find myself in a lifeboat in the middle of any ocean :eek: I would be cheered by the thought that, although it might take an extra few hours/days to find me, or that I might be missed altogether by low flying aircraft, and die... :( ... at least the lifeboat didn't clash with the drapes in the Queens Grill Lounge :rolleyes: .

Best wishes and happy sailings to all :) .

Even better would be having Tallulah Bankhead as a pax in the lifeboat.

[Pushka]

It is, and this is very much what he said during his 200th Crossing lecture on July 10, 2013.

 

Thankyou - I will watch all of that later today.

[Louise D]

How right you are! Gentlemen must have a proper jacket in order to offer it to women in strapless ball gowns when it gets chilly.:eek: Really, did no one else watch "Titanic"?:eek::D

 

Fashion Police maxim 29: Never underestimate the power of a strapless ball gown in any emergency situation.

 

But didn't at least on guy try to ware a strapless ball gown? :eek:

 

Don

 

I doubt that the disguised man would have got away with it if he had worn a strapless gown.

 

Contemporaneous reports from those in lifeboat 10 were that there was a figure forward dressed in a brown mackintosh with a shawl like that of a steerage passenger over its head. The face was completely hidden.

 

Soon after lifeboat 10 had left the Titanic, four sailors on board the overcrowded lifeboat were transferred to another boat and at this time it was discovered that the figure was that of a man. When somebody asked who he was he refused to say. The identity of this man still remains a mystery.

[glojo]

If we look at the definition of winter then the usual months are December, January and February. During those months there will be thousands of merchant vessels plying their trade, regularly crossing the North Atlantic which in my humble opinion is most definitely not the most dangerous of seas. Ships that are a quarter the size of this huge vessel and many more that are even smaller will be plying their trade across this expanse of water all year around without any problems.

 

A very few ill informed baffoons enjoy accusing me of having something against this fine ship and that is their choice and nothing I can say will alter their immature stance. I most certainly do not have any type of issue with that fine ship, it is too big for my taste but so what? Some folks like cod liver oil, some folks don't, some folks like red wine, some folks don't.

 

If I had to cross the Atlantic in rough weather and it had to be done in a timely fashion then the Queen Mary 2 would be my ship of choice. If there was no rush, then I would look for the biggest ship with the nicest amenitities and no doubt this same ship would be in my top five for that crossing but.....

 

If I wanted to go on a World Cruise then the Queen Mary2 would not feature on my list solely because of her size..

 

It is not as some folks suggest because I dislike the ship... It is solely down to the limited locations she might be able to visit and the fact that tenders will be a frequent means of getting ashore!

 

Is she a liner?? Obviously the designer and Cunard make a big issue about this but is she really a liner? Or is she an extremely large, well built cruise ship?

 

Yes a thousand times yes it is suggested she is strengthed to cope with adverse weather conditions but.... Why, why spend all that money when she rarely crosses the Atlantic in winter, when she does cross, she will take into account adverse weather and steer a course to avoid the worse of what nature can throw at it and adjust her speed accordingly?

 

I look at all the other ships that ply their trade across the oceans and are they 'specially strengthed' If she had a regular, scheduled crossing that demanded she took five days and not an hour longer, then YES, a resounding large and undeniable YES, she may well need that extra stengthning but is that the case? Does she take five or is it now seven or perish the thought eight days? This ship can now take her time, alter her course and adjust her speed to suit.

 

 

It is possible that the Queen Mary 2 might cross the Atlantic during this winter period, just like it might be possible that the other two Cunard ships might also cross that strip of water during the same time span?

 

If the lifeboats have to be that height then it would be sheer stupidity to put them lower but...

 

Have these boats ever been launched from that height with the ship listing?

 

My own thoughts are serious consideration needs to be given to the stowage, location of lifeboats and perhaps they should be stowed inside the ship, nearer the waterline and then somehow released into the water once fully laden. I am perhaps thinking about panels in the ships side opening and the boats sliding out and maybe being capable of being launched from either side. Extremely expensive but is what we have at the moment adquate?

 

Coasta Concordia shows us the HUGE and perhaps insurmountable problems of loading lifeboats when the ship is listing with passengers demanding to know what is happening? I totally accept that the command and control had broken down on that vessel but on a ship of that size when power is lost there are going to be unimaginable problems in keeping control of an emergency situation. I do not use the word unimaginable lightly as I have never, ever heard of any modern cruise ship exercising a proper lifeboat drill at sea at night, in adverse weather conditions, we all are perfectly happy to entrust our lives to those we believe are competant but unless we train for an event, then how on earth do we expect the crew to be proficient?

 

I cannot begin to imagine what would happen in total darkness and the ship starting to list and folks starting to panic. It is possible the lifeboats on the Queen Mary are so high because she does not ride waves like smaller vessels and the waves come up the side of the ship. Bottom line is Mr Payne clearly claculated the height these boats had to be and that is the height they are.

 

During the Second World War Great Britain had small corvettes escorting merchant convoys across the Atlantic during all weathers, every month of the year and their so called sea boats were extremely close to the water and it was unfortunate to loose one although this was a rare event..

 

Look by the funnel and you will see the sea boat and these ships displaced less than 1000 tons compared to the 150,000 of the Queen Mary and yet these tiny vessels were at sea all year round, crossing the Atlantic no matter what mother nature threw at them.

 

 

length 205ft (QM2 1132ft) Beam 33ft (QM2 135ft)

 

During the Falklands Conflict bombs were scooting through our ships without exploding and yes there was a fuse issue but the other issue was the ship's sides were so thin. These warships did not have lifeboats stowed at huge heights 'in case they got washed overboard' They are certainly not strengthened because of North Atlantic storms, the days of sturdily built warships are long gone.

 

I would love to chat with Mr Payne but not on an open forum where each word gets dissected and anything that is said can be turned or twisted by mischevious folks to imply something no one meant to say. Respect to this very clever person and even more respect to them for coming onto a public forum and answer questions.

 

I have only posted the image of that corvette to highlight that a ship does not have to be huge to be able to cross the North Atlantic BUT clearly the bigger the ship, the more comfortable the journey, the bigger the ship, the better standard of living. I have served on small ships where both the bread and vegetable lockers were on the upper deck and as soon as we believed we would encounter adverse wether conditions, the bread lockers were opened and the crew allowed to help themselves so yes I have experience of crossing the high seas in adverse weather conditions and yes in those conditions I would have loved to have been on this magnificent ship that was designed by a very clever, knowledgable person.

[Pushka]

One thing that was stressed on the show I recently watched is that there are very robust ships that cross the Atlantic safely each year. But they do not carry thousands of passengers and they do not offer balconies for the trip. And those two things make a world of difference to the design and size.

[BlueRiband]

Is she a liner?? Obviously the designer and Cunard make a big issue about this but is she really a liner? Or is she an extremely large, well built cruise ship? ....

 

Have these boats ever been launched from that height with the ship listing?....

 

I would love to chat with Mr Payne but not on an open forum where each word gets dissected and anything that is said can be turned or twisted by mischevious folks to imply something no one meant to say. Respect to this very clever person and even more respect to them for coming onto a public forum and answer questions...

 

I believe two of these points were addressed in earlier threads. In Stephen Payne's Webb Institute talk he describes the bow shape of the ship as defining a transatlantic liner. Regarding lifeboats, the cargo and tanker ships use free fall or self launching boats that would not be affected by a list. However they are suspended as such a sharp angle about half of all cruise ship passengers would be physically incapable of climbing into such a craft.

 

As for not wanting to discuss anything with Stephen Payne in a public forum, that's your decision. I however see this as a unique opportunity and don't give a rat's rear end what anybody else thinks of my questions.

[glojo]

I believe two of these points were addressed in earlier threads. In Stephen Payne's Webb Institute talk he describes the bow shape of the ship as defining a transatlantic liner. Regarding lifeboats, the cargo and tanker ships use free fall or self launching boats that would not be affected by a list. However they are suspended as such a sharp angle about half of all cruise ship passengers would be physically incapable of climbing into such a craft.

 

As for not wanting to discuss anything with Stephen Payne in a public forum, that's your decision. I however see this as a unique opportunity and don't give a rat's rear end what anybody else thinks of my questions.

:) Totally agree about the asking of questions and I do hope you did not misunderstand what I was saying. I have most certainly asked a question of this gentleman but would much, much prefer to have an amiable chat over a glass of whatever we fancy.

 

The previous Q&A was very good but clearly any answers were very generalised and this generalisation made a few folks frustrated and that is all I am suggesting ;) It is great that he has come forward and we should all take advantage of this kind gesture but we must not expect too much :o:o

 

Are the bows of a ship the bows of a ship and this is the first I have heard that a nicely designed bow makes a ship a liner! From what Mr Payne has previously stated he got the inspiration for the front end of the QM2 from the QE2.

 

Totally agree with you about accessibility of lifeboats and that is why I did NOT suggest mounting them in the manner you are describing.

[balf]

 

 

 

... Why, why spend all that money when she rarely crosses the Atlantic in winter,

 

 

 

.

 

Remember she was designed, what, 12 years ago on the assumption that she would do regular crossings A lot has changed in that time in the world, and yes she is really unsuited to world cruises, though the North Atlantic is not the only location in the world that has rough seas.

 

Problem is you really can't de-design a cruise liner, and while Cunard would certainly never build such a ship today, they are stuck with her until the time to lay her up comes.

 

David.

[pepperrn]

Glojo,

A very few ill informed baffoons enjoy accusing me of having something against this fine ship and that is their choice and nothing I can say will alter their immature stance.

If you mean me with these rude descriptions, I'd rather you call me by name, than call me names.

Yours,

[Cruise Liner Fan]

Remember she was designed, what, 12 years ago on the assumption that she would do regular crossings A lot has changed in that time in the world, and yes she is really unsuited to world cruises, though the North Atlantic is not the only location in the world that has rough seas.

 

Problem is you really can't de-design a cruise liner, and while Cunard would certainly never build such a ship today, they are stuck with her until the time to lay her up comes.

 

David.

But when the QM2 still averages 17 to 20 transatlantic crossings each year her Ocean Liner design comes in very handy and those other average Cruise Ships of today are not designed to and can not do 17 to 20 transatlantic crossings each year. I hope that when her sailings days are over, Cunard then will build another Ocean Liner. Regards,Jerry

[pepperrn]

.But when the QM2 still averages 17 to 20 transatlantic crossings each year her Ocean Liner design comes in very handy and those average Cruise Ships of today are not designed to do 17 to 20 transatlantic crossings each year. I hope that when her sailings days are over, Cunard then will build another Ocean Liner. Regards,Jerry

Well said Jerry :) .

 

I understand that QM2 had a designed forty year service life when she entered service in 2004. A design that foresaw repeated 6-day crossings of the Atlantic, at any time of the year.

I believe that QE & QV were projected to have a thirty year service life, and am certain I read (in a technical/nautical book), that if either were regularly used to cross the Atlantic that life could be shortened by ten years.

 

I have a book (published in the mid 70s) in front of me that states "There is very little chance that a liner as large as the QE2 will ever be built again".

Let us hope that Queen Mary 2 isn't the last Atlantic Liner ever built (she'll out-live me in any case ;) ).

 

Best wishes :) .

[glojo]

Glojo,

 

If you mean me with these rude descriptions, I'd rather you call me by name, than call me names.

Yours,

:)Have you ever, ever suggested I disliked the Queen Mary 2?

 

If you have then I definitely missed that post?

 

Hopefully your post was wrote with the usual tongue in cheek humour as you must surely accept I hold you in the highest of regard?

 

I think Balf has hit the nail on the head with his reply and my very own personal thoughts are that he is spot on (but we might both be wrong)

 

If bow shape equates to a ship being a liner then I really like the shape of the Disney vessels BUT..... Move aft, away from that front section and YUK they are awful looking ships!!!! :(

[Cruise Liner Fan]

Thank You Pepper for the information you wrote and Long Live The Queen Mary 2. Since Cunard loves to use the advertising slogan of "The Most Famous Ocean Liners in the World", I have always thought that the Queen Victoria and the Queen Elizabeth should have been built as Ocean Liners instead of what they really are. And that is they are glorified Cruise Ships based on the Holland-America Vista Class Cruise Ship design :eek: Regards,Jerry

[balf]

I a sure we would all rather like to see QM2 replaced with a modern liner when she is retired. She was Micky Arison's new super baby when she was designed, but you have heads in the clouds to think he, or any other cruise company would spend a billion on a replacement. I don't know the figures, but would wager that QM is very much more costly to maintain than the other newer Cunarders.

 

Think of Concord.. No one has ever attemted to replaced it, and there is no sign that anyone ever will

 

Enjoy her while you can, she will probably outlive most of us anyway.

 

David.

[Cruise Liner Fan]

I a sure we would all rather like to see QM2 replaced with a modern liner when she is retired. She was Micky Arison's new super baby when she was designed, but you have heads in the clouds to think he, or any other cruise company would spend a billion on a replacement. I don't know the figures, but would wager that QM is very much more costly to maintain than the other newer Cunarders.

 

Think of Concord.. No one has ever attemted to replaced it, and there is no sign that anyone ever will

 

Enjoy her while you can, she will probably outlive most of us anyway.

 

David.

But if there is still a market for transatlantic crossings by ship in the decade of the 2040s which it is expected that hopefully the service life of the QM2 makes it to that decade, You would still need an Ocean Liner to do the 17 to 20 transatlantic crossings each year. A Cruise Ship can't do 17 to 20 transatlantic crossings per year. Regards,Jerry

[balf]

But if there is still a market for transatlantic crossings by ship in the decade of the 2040s which it is expected that hopefully the service life of the QM2 makes it to that decade, You would still need an Ocean Liner to do the 17 to 20 transatlantic crossings each year. A Cruise Ship can't do 17 to 20 transatlantic crossings per year. Regards,Jerry

 

Crossings are nostalger trips taken by folk who want just a taste of living in a long gone era, when it really was the only way to cross.

 

You may be correct that this will still be viable in years to come, but Cunard have had to spoil the illusion somewhat by stretching out the trip almost to the point of farce. Why? Because it costs too much to do the trip at the speed the ship was designed for, and to squeeze out the maximum in spends aboard.

 

It will be interesting to see how the crossings count goes in years to come.

 

David.

[QM1]

I a sure we would all rather like to see QM2 replaced with a modern liner when she is retired. She was Micky Arison's new super baby when she was designed, but you have heads in the clouds to think he, or any other cruise company would spend a billion on a replacement. I don't know the figures, but would wager that QM is very much more costly to maintain than the other newer Cunarders.

 

Think of Concord.. No one has ever attemted to replaced it, and there is no sign that anyone ever will

 

Enjoy her while you can, she will probably outlive most of us anyway.

 

David.

 

I dont think that maintenance (apart from fuel) is more expensive than that of other ships of her size. Even to the contrary, I would think that in the long run she´ll be cheaper because she is more robustly built and will survive all her contemporaries. She´ll need less strengthening work, and she´ll last longer, which when all aspects are counted sounds more economically to me if measured over the anticipated 40 year period than Allure of the Seas and the like which I doubt will last more than 25 years.

 

And, I am as sure as you she might outlive many of us here. 2040 something is a long time, and as for me I think my chance is less than 50% to survive her. That said, I am planning to do my last ever cruise on QM2.

[Cruise Liner Fan]

I dont think that maintenance (apart from fuel) is more expensive than that of other ships of her size. Even to the contrary, I would think that in the long run she´ll be cheaper because she is more robustly built and will survive all her contemporaries. She´ll need less strengthening work, and she´ll last longer, which when all aspects are counted sounds more economically to me if measured over the anticipated 40 year period than Allure of the Seas and the like which I doubt will last more than 25 years.

 

And, I am as sure as you she might outlive many of us here. 2040 something is a long time, and as for me I think my chance is less than 50% to survive her. That said, I am planning to do my last ever cruise on QM2.

I happen to have a 4 video cassette documentary about the history of the Ocean Liners. Featured in this documentary that was filmed in 1996 was the QE2 doing a transatlantic crossing from New York to Southampton. The QE2 at that time was a 27 year old ship, remember that she entered service in 1969. The captain of the QE2 said in this documentary that the QE2 is a 27 year old ship and that she is so well built that she can last another 27 years of service after 1996. And I do believe that the captain would have been right about his prediction if only Cunard/Carnival Corp. wanted to keep her in service. And if only Dubai World did not offer $100 Million for the QE2 to Cunard/Carnival Corp. Regards,Jerry

[BlueRiband]

... The captain of the QE2 said in this documentary that the QE2 is a 27 year old ship and that she is so well built that she can last another 27 years of service after 1996. And I do believe that the captain would have been right about his prediction if only Cunard/Carnival Corp. wanted to keep her in service...

 

While QE2's hull is remarkably strong and almost new her aluminum superstructure suffered fatigue and required constant and expensive maintenance. (QM2's is built with steel.) Compliance with SOLAS 2010 would have required a dramatic gut refit to remove much of the interior wood and the blind alleyways. Had that been done we would have read how Cunard ruined her charm and elegance. Even without SOLAS 2010, her plumbing and air conditioning were troublesome and Carnival/Cunard worried of a PR disaster should she have had a major breakdown.

 

It was widely believed that QE2 would be the last ocean liner and her retirement would end scheduled transatlantic service. According to Payne last July, QM2 owes her existence to a movie. When Cameron's Titanic was released bookings on QE2 skyrocketed and forced Carnival to consider a replacement.

 

It will interesting to see if Titanic II affects transatlantic bookings. The skeptics may well end up being right but that proposed ship has just finished model basin testing in Germany.

[david,Mississauga]

Crossings are nostalger trips taken by folk who want just a taste of living in a long gone era, when it really was the only way to cross.

 

...

David.

 

I think that many people who cross on the QM2 are not thinking of "a long lost era" but thinking of their comfort. I wasn't thinking of nostalgia when I made my first trip to the UK in 1973. Although I'm not afraid of flying, I find it uncomfortable over two hours or so and even in a more comfortable Club class there is the horror of jet-lag, especially eastbound when five hours are lost between Toronto and London. I admit that we usually fly home direct to Toronto. At the end of a holiday it isn't as disagreeable an experience as starting out with a flight. The flights home are during the day as opposed to the semi-overnight eastbound flights. Because we were taking a cruise aboard the QE from Southampton earlier this year, we flew both ways for the first time in 22 years. The overnight flight might have been more comfortable in Club Class on a major airline, but that is not in our budget, so we had to settle for the premium cabin on a so-called budget airline. But arriving in London when our bodies are still on Toronto time (3:00 a.m.) is not an experience I wish to repeat any time soon.

 

The days of frequent transatlantic services were winding down when I started travelling abroad. In 1973 there were two ships to/from New York - the QE2 and the France - and two on the Montreal-UK route - Stefan Batory and Alexandr Pushkin. (The last Canadian Pacific Empress was withdrawn in 1971). By 1975 there was only the QE2 from New York and the last liner from Montreal ceased in 1987. None of these services appeared to lack passengers. It was a question of economics. The Russian and Polish ships on the Montreal route were getting old and their operators couldn't afford new vessels. On my crossings I have met many people who said they wanted to do it at least once for the experience. Many others simply do not like the flying experience. Very few indicated they were inspired by nostalgia.